Western Kaiju Canon

[Jomei]

No, most non-fans don't use the word kaiju at all they say giant monster or monster or even Godzilla as a catch all term. But yes, to them it's all the same thing.
I think fans are in their own little bubble.

So... why are you raising the perspective of people who know basically nothing about this subject? Should we defer to their ignorance?

[Vakanai]

No, most non-fans don't use the word kaiju at all they say giant monster or monster or even Godzilla as a catch all term. But yes, to them it's all the same thing.
I think fans are in their own little bubble.

So... why are you raising the perspective of people who know basically nothing about this subject? Should we defer to their ignorance?

Are they ignorant? Does it matter that some of us agree/argue that it has to have either a) be from Japan or b) be Japanese inspired (and we can't even all agree to both of those)? Is kaiju movies and giant movies a real separate distinction? No, it isn't really except to some of us in this fandom. It's all basically your typical snobbish elitist fan debate on making arbitrary definitions to hang over others, or if not it smacks close to it.

Basically, I think it's best if we keep this sort of stuff vague and allow more bleed through instead of getting all strict about it. Because once fans start defining "well no see, actually this isn't blah and blah for such and such reasons" it starts getting more and more into gatekeeping.

[Jomei]

Are they ignorant?

Yes, about this subject. It's not an insult. I'm totally ignorant of many things. Should the Dr. Who fandom take my opinions into consideration when deciding their own in-fandom definitions? I should hope not! I'm an ignoramus on that subject.

Does it matter that some of us agree/argue that it has to have either a) be from Japan or b) be Japanese inspired (and we can't even all agree to both of those)? Is kaiju movies and giant movies a real separate distinction?

Yes. And yes. (In my opinion!!!) <-does this unnecessary disclaimer help?

No, it isn't really except to some of us in this fandom. It's all basically your typical snobbish elitist fan debate on making arbitrary definitions to hang over others, or if not it smacks close to it.

Yes, what could be more snobbish than geeking out over definitions related to a bunch of 50-year old movies of guys in rubber suits fighting each other. We're a bunch of cultural elites here! Harumph harumph!

Basically, I think it's best if we keep this sort of stuff vague and allow more bleed through instead of getting all strict about it. Because once fans start defining "well no see, actually this isn't blah and blah for such and such reasons" it starts getting more and more into gatekeeping.

If you dislike the conversation, you're welcome to bow out a second time. I'm not being strict about anything. I have zero power to enforce my opinion. I'm simply explaining my perspective, which I said over and over again is simply my perspective. If my reasoning is persuasive and others agree, cool. If not, they don't have to listen to me at all. I'm just some dope posting on a forum. The arguments I'm presenting either make sense, or they don't.

If you disagree, offer a different argument. The "gate" is open for discussion and disagreement! Or again, just ignore my opinion and post on another thread. Employing heated language like "snobbish," "elitist," and "gatekeeping" about what's just esoteric nerd talk isn't helpful and turns the conversation into something contentious in a way it doesn't need to be.

There's no litmus test to be a kaiju fan. You can even completely misuse the term kaiju, and I doubt you'll even get banned. (And quite seriously, I welcome any and all fans whether they care about these definitions or discussions or not. If they want to learn, cool! If they just like watching the movies--even just the new ones!--and buying toys, they can be fans. If they only like the Legendary series, they can be fans. If they hate Showa era or don't even know what that means, they can be fans. If they think I'm an idiot and Clifford is a kaiju, I think many will disagree, but they can be fans. Not that it matters what I say. There's no gate, and there are no keepers!!!! Least of all me. But if you're saying expressing an opinion is "gatekeeping," then we're all the most stringent of border patrol, aren't we? You included.)

[HedorahIsBestGirl]

No, most non-fans don't use the word kaiju at all they say giant monster or monster or even Godzilla as a catch all term. But yes, to them it's all the same thing.
I think fans are in their own little bubble.

So... why are you raising the perspective of people who know basically nothing about this subject? Should we defer to their ignorance?

Are they ignorant? Does it matter that some of us agree/argue that it has to have either a) be from Japan or b) be Japanese inspired (and we can't even all agree to both of those)? Is kaiju movies and giant movies a real separate distinction? No, it isn't really except to some of us in this fandom. It's all basically your typical snobbish elitist fan debate on making arbitrary definitions to hang over others, or if not it smacks close to it.

Basically, I think it's best if we keep this sort of stuff vague and allow more bleed through instead of getting all strict about it. Because once fans start defining "well no see, actually this isn't blah and blah for such and such reasons" it starts getting more and more into gatekeeping.

Many non-fans use the term "kaiju." It was popularized thanks to Pacific Rim - not to mention Godzilla's own resurgence in popularity - and I've seen the term used in multiple recent movies, shows, YT videos, etc. to describe giant monsters. I've also never once heard a single person use "Godzilla" as a catch-all.

I agree with Jomei that we don't need to worry about a non-fan's definition of a kaiju and I don't think there's anything wrong with a fan debate about which movies monsters can be classified as kaiju. It only becomes gatekeeping if some long-time fan decides to start shitting on new/casual fans for "not using the word properly." Will that happen? Probably. But I haven't seen it happen on here yet and, as with all things, no reason to let a few assholes ruin it for the rest of us.

[edgaguirus]

Much of what a person thinks on non-Toho or non- Japanese kaiju often comes down to opinions and expectations, so, while we may have differing thoughts, we can all agree that these giant monsters could all be considered kaiju.

[mikelcho]

To throw my few cents in I’ve never been partial to geography being a legitimate definition of genre.

Geography is a defining element of many things...

Plus, artistic movements have often been both historically and regionally defined. French New Wave cinema, for example. American transcendentalism. "...

I've been thinking about this for a while, and I do need to clarify my previous statement. I do think geography helps in corralling certain items and does make descriptions easier. Things like artistic movements clearly benefit from this, as mentioned certain food items (although more on this later), and just being able to generally talk about more defined things is helpful. I can say "yadda yadda, Russian literature" and we know I'm not talking about Byron, Shelly, Dickins, ect.

However, I get frustrated with attempts to use geography as an additional qualifier in descriptions of artistic genres/styles/forms or anything relating to the substance of the work itself. While certain thematic/stylistic/cultural influences/throughlines can be generally made about art from specific regions, it gets very muddy if geography becomes a binary requirement, to the point where things that often should be included are excluded, and things that should not be included are kept in.

Furthermore, it introduces the Theseus' ship problem alluded to by LSD. If something needs to be of Japanese origin to be a kaiju flick what about the co-American productions mentioned by LSD, what about Godzilla King of the Monsters, Gigantis the Fire monster, ect ect? Then what level of direct Japanese involvement is required, and is it limited with trans-pacific productions, or do we throw Yongary or Pulgasari outside of Kaijudom because their partial (or in the case of the latter, forceful/deceptive/unethical) international production? What if Golgola ever saw the light of day, would it be grandfathered in simply for being eastern/Asian? If so, I'm not really comfortable with that. All of this doesn't even get into the changing perceptions of nations, their boundaries, and their people.

Obviously, food frequently uses these qualifiers, but there's also a material component at play, where certain climates dictate the actual properties and characteristics of the food itself. To me (completely outside of the wine world fwiw), the Champagne-iness of Champagne has less to do with France, and more to do with the environmental conditions of the land in which we call Champagne France. While cultural movements are certainly regional, they are far easier to transplant than yearlong weather patterns and soil conditions.

TLDR: Even writing this I know there are going to be issues and oversites, such is the nature of trying to erect defined boundaries for complex sets of items. But I think my biggest issue with using geography in this way is that at first it appears to be an objective means of solving this issue (or at least simplifying it), when in reality it just introduces yet another highly subjective/unstable metric to the equation.

Added in 26 minutes 20 seconds:

You know, UG, I remember watching Zarkorr! and Kraa! on VHS and loving them. It's a pity they still haven't been released officially on DVD/Blu-ray (I wonder who owns the rights to them now?).

Also, I seem to remember an artist who made a painting of Godzilla facing Zarkorr and Kraa. I think it was shown on here, but I'm not sure. A little help here, please? Thanks!

This?

I tried looking at this picture again, but it said "This image is no longer available." Could this please be fixed? Thanks!

[Jetty_Jags]

I tried looking at this picture again, but it said "This image is no longer available." Could this please be fixed? Thanks!
[/quote]
https://www.artstation.com/artwork/xvW3X

[mikelcho]

I tried looking at this picture again, but it said "This image is no longer available." Could this please be fixed? Thanks!

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/xvW3X

Thanks again!