Talkback: Godzilla: Final Wars (2004)

[JVM]

Man, Kitamura really duped a lot of Godzilla fans, didn't he? I remember him saying he loved the 70s Godzilla films (especially Godzilla vs Mechagodzilla) and so many people fell for it. People were so quick to insist GFW felt like a 70s Godzilla film because Kitamura loved those movies and was paying tribute to them.

I've never understood how people can watch this movie and insist that it feels like a throwback or a "love letter" to the later Showa films. All that GFW has in common with some of the 70s Godzilla movies is that it doesn't take itself completely seriously and the monsters are more humanoid than animalistic in their movements. Hardly a proper tribute.

And now the same silly arguments are happening with GxK. Funny how history repeats itself...

I'm not sure how much of this is "I do not even have a phantom of an idea where they get it from" and how much of it is expressing lack of understanding as a way to express an underlying disagreement, but I'm going to assume the former for the sake of discussion. I think the disconnect has to do with the fact that those in the community who are diehard Showa fans know the ins and out of Honda and Fukuda's filmmaking styles and what they like to do in human stories and how they frame a shot while a good chunk of fandom isn't paying attention to it as deeply and is mostly comparing the basic story elements that we take somewhat for granted at that level. In terms of actual tone and technical filmmaking, I agree completely, it is by no means a homage to Honda or Fukuda on that level, it doesn't borrow from the human story elements at all, the human side of it is completely contemporary inspired and Kitamura probably did not take inspiration in any technical approach, but I assume a lot of fans were going off the superficial aspects that a lot of Showa era kaiju returned, that alien invaders were the enemies after being avoided for most of the post-Showa era and that Godzilla was pretty ostensibly a heroic character when he had been cast more like an antihero for the Heisei and Millennium eras, so I would say I definitely understand where it is coming from.

[miguelnuva]

FW is to me is what if Heisei Godzilla was pretending to be Showa Godzilla but film during the Millennium era.

As I said before as a kid I thought this was the best thing since sliced bread. As an adult it's passable. Godzilla looks cool in it and does cool things. Miyuzuki is hot but the best thing FW produces was the old Stendhai fanfictions back in the day.

[king_ghidorah]

I love the 2004 suit, but that’s just about all I can say that’s positive about my feelings about this film

[MogeGoji1994]

Well happy 20 years to this film! Despite all its flaws, I still love it and like to look to the positives of it

[Mechagigan]

Final Wars is flawed, but to 2000s kids like me it'll always be a special movie. I got into kaiju right as G'14 released, so while I didn't grow up with it the same way some might've, it definitely always stood out from the bunch for it's creative visual style and massive roster. It obviously isn't all it should've and could've been, and needless to say, the movies got its issues - bit still, it's got loads of campy charm, with wicked cool dated visuals and shovels of fanservice to boot. For better or worse, it feels like a giant budget fan film littered with inside jokes and nonsensical action, and end of the day, I think there's a lot to appreciate about FW despite its faults

[Legion1979]

Sometimes I wish I could be half my age and had seen GFW when I was 16 or younger. Because I first saw it after already being a fan for almost 20 years and all I see when I view it is an insulting two hour hunk of crap.

[Chaos Reincarnation]

I was the right age for the movie. Edgy 2000's middle schooler, loved Sum41 (and still do). I loved it, and for a while this was the only Godzilla movie i could get people to watch so i have good memories attached. I don't ever really find myself watching it on my own though. I also dont know what people were expecting from this director if they had seen Versus. The movie is pretty much entirely over the top fighting.

[king_ghidorah]

Sometimes I wish I could be half my age and had seen GFW when I was 16 or younger. Because I first saw it after already being a fan for almost 20 years and all I see when I view it is an insulting two hour hunk of crap.

Agreed, I graduated high school the year it came out, and it was still painful to watch even though I was probably the perfect age for it.

It's honestly the only live-action Godzilla film I've never been able to watch all the way through. I always lose the will to finish it and have to come back later, or fast forward during certain parts. Truly a painful experience.

[Mechagigan]

I'm sadly right there with you. I'll defend GFW from some perspectives - mainly for all the cool stuff surrounding the movie itself, and the camp - but every time I pop in the DVD, I'm reminded that the movie's about 70% boring. Which is pretty strange for a movie that's more or less presenting endless action.

[JVM]

I view it as a "party" kind of movie. Good to leave on in the background and glance up at the better parts without needing to follow every scene, good to get someone curious about what the callbacks and references mean.

[edgaguirus]

Happy 20th to the film.

[GojiDoobyDoo]

I think this movie rules, it’s one of my favorites in the whole franchise. Got a lot of stuff that I enjoy, including several monster designs, with Anguirus, Rodan, and Godzilla himself just being a few notable mentions. In fact, that whole 4 way fight scene with those three plus King Caesar is perhaps my most memorable giant monster battle. I also like that the human plot is just as entertaining as the monster stuff. From bad (but fun) acting, to the Matrix style action, to Captain Gordon and X, the human portion of this film actually sticks out in my mind as memorable.

Definitely gotta mention, as someone who grew up not only with this movie, but the early 2000s in general, I really, really dig that specific atmosphere that encapsulates this whole movie. I always picture it with things like Halo 2, the GameCube, Frutiger Aero, Metroid Prime, and Godzilla DAMM. All of these things that not only encapsulate my childhood, but just a pocket of how I view the early 2000s in general. Related to that, and to cap off, I love this movies soundtrack. I already like electronic/synth music to begin with, and it rocks here. I’d like to end this with naming a few of my favorite tracks….

The King of the Monsters
Beginning of the End
The Arrival (Perfect Collection version)
Operation: Final War
Ready for Rumble
Ending Title

[LegendZilla]

This movie was not content simply being a Godzilla movie. In a desperate attempt to appeal to as wide an audience as possible, Toho tried to have their cake and eat it by making it a Matrix and X-men movie too. Unfortunately the then-current Hollywood trends it wanted so badly to emulate (i.e bullet time and black leather) were already on their way out, resulting in a disjointed mess fueled by laziness and greed.

Movies like this are what happens when studios get so overconfident in the size of a product, thinking failure will be impossible. Not only was it almost too late in the game by copying contemporary trends, but said trends had already been parodied into oblivion by that point. So rather than being cool, such attempts would only get met with mockery. At the end of the day, GFW is bound to remain a shoddy relic of the 2000's.

[Gojira 41mk11]

And which YouTuber did you get that one from?

[LegendZilla]

And which YouTuber did you get that one from?

I'll admit I was influenced by the Omni-Viewer. When you're born neurodivergent, you tend to be limited in both vocabulary and verbal dexterity, which means more often than not, you feel the need to borrow other people's words and statements to back your arguments.

[LSD Jellyfish]

Keep plagiarizing other people’s (braindead) thoughts as your own, and you will be banned.

I will get specific, on why that’s also a dumb take:
-Kitamura Ryuhei was an established zany action director prior to GFW. See “Versus”, which came out in Japan in 2000.

-We know that drafts of what would become GFW were less action oriented. IIRC, I don’t think mutants were in the original script.

https://www.tohokingdom.com/blog/godzil ... anslation/

Now, it’s possible that KITAMURA, was influenced by X-Men and the Matrix (everything was!). However to say that Toho made him do that, or mandated it, is such an idiotic sentiment. Toho hired a director, who clearly was an Anglophile (but also had his own unique style) and GFW was the result.

And while Kitamura may have been INSPIRED by such things, to pretend to know the psychology behind that and assume it’s to appeal to everyone (versus something he just likes) is dumb. This is also a stupid view of things as even if it’s true, it just means that GFW was part of a larger artistic movement, and is completely normal.

Edit: here’s a FANTASTIC interview that showcases that most of GFW was under Kitamura’s control, and mostly confirms the above.

https://vantagepointinterviews.com/2019 ... inal-wars/

Added in 23 minutes 51 seconds:

This movie was not content simply being a Godzilla movie. In a desperate attempt to appeal to as wide an audience as possible, Toho tried to have their cake and eat it by making it a Matrix and X-men movie too. Unfortunately the then-current Hollywood trends it wanted so badly to emulate (i.e bullet time and black leather) were already on their way out, resulting in a disjointed mess fueled by laziness and greed.

Movies like this are what happens when studios get so overconfident in the size of a product, thinking failure will be impossible. Not only was it almost too late in the game by copying contemporary trends, but said trends had already been parodied into oblivion by that point. So rather than being cool, such attempts would only get met with mockery. At the end of the day, GFW is bound to remain a shoddy relic of the 2000's.

Just quoting this so you don’t edit it.

[Mechagigan]

Meh, it's totally a Y2K relic but I dig that about it. I think it's a really solid time capsule, like G'84/Biollante for example, beyond the issues the movie has in the bigger picture. Even the extremely overdone Matrix crap is sort of charming to me in how of it's time it is - not that I don't get bored of it, lol.

On that, I've said it before, and I'll say it again - the movie's number one issue is all the insanely long Matrix-fu tangents. But as explained above it's not like that should be too shocking given the creative background

[Gailah 1966]

When I first heard about the title "Final Wars" in 2003 I expected an epic, endless monster war, a battle to remember for eternity. Then the movie came out and went I into the cinema. I was so naive...

[Chaos Reincarnation]

When I first heard about the title "Final Wars" in 2003 I expected an epic, endless monster war, a battle to remember for eternity. Then the movie came out and went I into the cinema. I was so naive...

I was only around 11 or 12 at the time I definitely had these grandiose expectations lmao

[edgaguirus]

In a way it works as a big anniversary film. It may not be the respectful film people expected, but it succeeds as a fun, action packed homage to the past films.