Godzilla vs. Destoroyah (1995)

[LegendZilla]

For all the complaints one may have over the Heisei era as a whole, there's one thing you gotta give it credit for. They made Godzilla a sympathetic character who went through an arc (at least as much as non-speaking, non-human character realistically can). It shined out the most in this movie. If anything, this era is most likely why I'm a sucker for when they treat Godzilla as more than just a destructive monster.

Godzilla had no arc of any kind, he was an animal and an antagonist the entire series. He had personality, but never went through an arc.

Is the idea of him going through an arc innately bad?

[UltramanGoji]

Literally nothing in Legion's post is condescending.

Maybe not for those critical of the Heisei series as a whole, but it is for those who do like said films. Just thought I'd show my perspective.

Your perspective in this instance is objectively wrong.

[LegendZilla]

Literally nothing in Legion's post is condescending.

Maybe not for those critical of the Heisei series as a whole, but it is for those who do like said films. Just thought I'd show my perspective.

Your perspective in this instance is objectively wrong.

Can you please explain?

[ShinGojira14]

For all the complaints one may have over the Heisei era as a whole, there's one thing you gotta give it credit for. They made Godzilla a sympathetic character who went through an arc (at least as much as non-speaking, non-human character realistically can). It shined out the most in this movie. If anything, this era is most likely why I'm a sucker for when they treat Godzilla as more than just a destructive monster.

Godzilla had no arc of any kind, he was an animal and an antagonist the entire series. He had personality, but never went through an arc.

Is the idea of him going through an arc innately bad?

I never said that. I just stated the facts.

[Voyager]

To be honest, I find most of Neon Genesis Evangelion emotionally manipulative. To see how I feel take a look at my posts in the thread dedicated to that series.

Talk about condescending, in your NGE essay you presented yourself as an ‘omega-brain, smarter than thou’ person.

[UltramanGoji]

Maybe not for those critical of the Heisei series as a whole, but it is for those who do like said films. Just thought I'd show my perspective.

Your perspective in this instance is objectively wrong.

Can you please explain?

It doesn't matter whether you are a fan of the Heisei series or critical of it, what Legion posted was not condescending.

[Legion1979]

Maybe he's upset that I insinuated that if the ending of the movie got an emotional response out of him, he was probably being manipulated.

I'll say it before and I'll say it again...this movie banks on you going into it already having a lot of emotional baggage for the character, and not just due to the preceding Heisei films. Just taking this movie on its own, an emotional response to Godzilla's death isn't really earned, because he's barely in the film and he doesn't really register as an actual character.

It's the same reason the ending of Godzilla '84 (in which Godzilla is this lumbering statue with no personality) makes people cry.

[LegendZilla]

Maybe he's upset that I insinuated that if the ending of the movie got an emotional response out of him, he was probably being manipulated.

I'll say it before and I'll say it again...this movie banks on you going into it already having a lot of emotional baggage for the character, and not just due to the preceding Heisei films. Just taking this movie on its own, an emotional response to Godzilla's death isn't really earned, because he's barely in the film and he doesn't really register as an actual character.

It's the same reason the ending of Godzilla '84 (in which Godzilla is this lumbering statue with no personality) makes people cry.

Godzilla in Shin did not exactly have a personality to speak of either.

[UltramanGoji]

Godzilla in Shin did not exactly have a personality to speak of either.

Nobody mentioned Shin.

[Voyager]

Godzilla in Shin did not exactly have a personality to speak of either.

How is this relevant? Nothing in Shin wants to make us feel bad or sorrowful for Godzilla, at least on the surface.

[LSD Jellyfish]

For what wants to be a final hurrah for emotion for Godzilla, I always got more of a rise out of Juniors death at the hands of Destoroyah, and even then it’s more contingent on watching the previous two films. There is narrative whiplash with everyone being uncomfortably scared of what Godzilla is going to do, only for the final moments to suddenly force in a rather somber moment because we the audience will probably be sad.

[Legion1979]

The reason why Junior's death works is because we see this overmatched creature barely survive against the aggregate Destroyah so he's already got our sympathy. But then his death is so cruel and unexpected that it's shocking the first time you see it. It works, and is the one emotional moment in the movie that feels earned.

The emotional response from Godzilla's death comes from a) our familiarity with the character from 21 previous movies and b) just how manipulative Ifukube's requiem is.

[ShinGojira14]

Maybe he's upset that I insinuated that if the ending of the movie got an emotional response out of him, he was probably being manipulated.

I'll say it before and I'll say it again...this movie banks on you going into it already having a lot of emotional baggage for the character, and not just due to the preceding Heisei films. Just taking this movie on its own, an emotional response to Godzilla's death isn't really earned, because he's barely in the film and he doesn't really register as an actual character.

It's the same reason the ending of Godzilla '84 (in which Godzilla is this lumbering statue with no personality) makes people cry.

Godzilla in Shin did not exactly have a personality to speak of either.

First of all, two completely different movie eras with entirely different narratives and film structures. Second of all, Shin had nothing to do with this conversation.

[Legion1979]

Shin is such a radical departure from any other Godzilla that there's absolutely no chance of an emotional response to his defeat. So why bring him up?

[eabaker]

b) just how manipulative Ifukube's requiem is.

I was going to say - as with (to a lesser extent) Koroku's work in your '84 example - Ifukube is doing a lot of the heavy lifting in Destoroyah.

[Major sssspielberg!]

As someone who doesn't care for Destroyah (actually it ranks right at the bottom of my list) I think the big reason Godzilla's death works in the context of just Godzilla vs Destroyah is precisely because of Junior. We know that's his kid, we get the tender reunion moment, Godzilla breathes the energy onto him, and then once his affairs are in order, he beats the piss out of Destroyah and dies. Yeah, of course Ifukube does heavy lifting, but so does Satsuma, and the FX team. It works pretty well imo. The meltdown sequence is pretty top tier in terms of latter VS series effects.

[Legion1979]

To be honest, i stand firm that it's all pretty much Ifukube. Watch the sequence with the sound off. Outside of maybe that last CGI shot of Godzilla finally melting down, it just doesn't work. In fact, that random smoke ring floating out of one the shots takes me out of the sequence every single time. But add Ifukube's requiem and, Christ, you get goosebumps.

Ifukube's scores are why anything in the Heisei series works at all.

[LegendZilla]

To be honest, i stand firm that it's all pretty much Ifukube. Watch the sequence with the sound off. Outside of maybe that last CGI shot of Godzilla finally melting down, it just doesn't work. In fact, that random smoke ring floating out of one the shots takes me out of the sequence every single time. But add Ifukube's requiem and, Christ, you get goosebumps.

Ifukube's scores are why anything in the Heisei series works at all.

Would you care as to explain how you would re-work the entire film from scratch if given the opportunity? What elements would you preserve and what else would you modify.

[Legion1979]

To be honest, i stand firm that it's all pretty much Ifukube. Watch the sequence with the sound off. Outside of maybe that last CGI shot of Godzilla finally melting down, it just doesn't work. In fact, that random smoke ring floating out of one the shots takes me out of the sequence every single time. But add Ifukube's requiem and, Christ, you get goosebumps.

Ifukube's scores are why anything in the Heisei series works at all.

Would you care as to explain how you would re-work the entire film from scratch if given the opportunity? What elements would you preserve and what else would you modify.

That's a question that's impossible to answer. I dont know why people ask that in regards to the Heisei series. Aside from certain elements (music, monster designs) many of these movies are deeply flawed when to comes to cinematography, writing, direction, acting and (in some cases) special effects. A movie like Destroyah, IMHO, would need a complete, ground-up revamp to actually be a GOOD film.

[LegendZilla]

To be honest, i stand firm that it's all pretty much Ifukube. Watch the sequence with the sound off. Outside of maybe that last CGI shot of Godzilla finally melting down, it just doesn't work. In fact, that random smoke ring floating out of one the shots takes me out of the sequence every single time. But add Ifukube's requiem and, Christ, you get goosebumps.

Ifukube's scores are why anything in the Heisei series works at all.

Would you care as to explain how you would re-work the entire film from scratch if given the opportunity? What elements would you preserve and what else would you modify.

That's a question that's impossible to answer. I dont know why people ask that in regards to the Heisei series. Aside from certain elements (music, monster designs) many of these movies are deeply flawed when to comes to cinematography, writing, direction, acting and (in some cases) special effects. A movie like Destroyah, IMHO, would need a complete, ground-up revamp to actually be a GOOD film.

Are any of the core ideas serving as the foundation for the plot innately bad?