Is the idea of him going through an arc innately bad?ShinGojira14 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 11:42 amGodzilla had no arc of any kind, he was an animal and an antagonist the entire series. He had personality, but never went through an arc.LegendZilla wrote: ↑Sat Jan 01, 2022 7:29 pm For all the complaints one may have over the Heisei era as a whole, there's one thing you gotta give it credit for. They made Godzilla a sympathetic character who went through an arc (at least as much as non-speaking, non-human character realistically can). It shined out the most in this movie. If anything, this era is most likely why I'm a sucker for when they treat Godzilla as more than just a destructive monster.
Godzilla vs. Destoroyah (1995)
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Re: Godzilla vs. Destoroyah (1995)
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Re: Godzilla vs. Destoroyah (1995)
Your perspective in this instance is objectively wrong.LegendZilla wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 7:18 pmMaybe not for those critical of the Heisei series as a whole, but it is for those who do like said films. Just thought I'd show my perspective.
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Re: Godzilla vs. Destoroyah (1995)
Can you please explain?UltramanGoji wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:29 pmYour perspective in this instance is objectively wrong.LegendZilla wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 7:18 pmMaybe not for those critical of the Heisei series as a whole, but it is for those who do like said films. Just thought I'd show my perspective.
Last edited by LegendZilla on Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Godzilla vs. Destoroyah (1995)
I never said that. I just stated the facts.LegendZilla wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:13 pmIs the idea of him going through an arc innately bad?ShinGojira14 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 02, 2022 11:42 amGodzilla had no arc of any kind, he was an animal and an antagonist the entire series. He had personality, but never went through an arc.LegendZilla wrote: ↑Sat Jan 01, 2022 7:29 pm For all the complaints one may have over the Heisei era as a whole, there's one thing you gotta give it credit for. They made Godzilla a sympathetic character who went through an arc (at least as much as non-speaking, non-human character realistically can). It shined out the most in this movie. If anything, this era is most likely why I'm a sucker for when they treat Godzilla as more than just a destructive monster.
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Re: Godzilla vs. Destoroyah (1995)
Talk about condescending, in your NGE essay you presented yourself as an ‘omega-brain, smarter than thou’ person.LegendZilla wrote: ↑Sat Jan 01, 2022 10:11 pm
To be honest, I find most of Neon Genesis Evangelion emotionally manipulative. To see how I feel take a look at my posts in the thread dedicated to that series.
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Re: Godzilla vs. Destoroyah (1995)
It doesn't matter whether you are a fan of the Heisei series or critical of it, what Legion posted was not condescending.LegendZilla wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:36 pmCan you please explain?UltramanGoji wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 8:29 pmYour perspective in this instance is objectively wrong.LegendZilla wrote: ↑Tue Jan 04, 2022 7:18 pm
Maybe not for those critical of the Heisei series as a whole, but it is for those who do like said films. Just thought I'd show my perspective.
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Re: Godzilla vs. Destoroyah (1995)
Maybe he's upset that I insinuated that if the ending of the movie got an emotional response out of him, he was probably being manipulated.
I'll say it before and I'll say it again...this movie banks on you going into it already having a lot of emotional baggage for the character, and not just due to the preceding Heisei films. Just taking this movie on its own, an emotional response to Godzilla's death isn't really earned, because he's barely in the film and he doesn't really register as an actual character.
It's the same reason the ending of Godzilla '84 (in which Godzilla is this lumbering statue with no personality) makes people cry.
I'll say it before and I'll say it again...this movie banks on you going into it already having a lot of emotional baggage for the character, and not just due to the preceding Heisei films. Just taking this movie on its own, an emotional response to Godzilla's death isn't really earned, because he's barely in the film and he doesn't really register as an actual character.
It's the same reason the ending of Godzilla '84 (in which Godzilla is this lumbering statue with no personality) makes people cry.
Last edited by Legion1979 on Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Godzilla vs. Destoroyah (1995)
Godzilla in Shin did not exactly have a personality to speak of either.Legion1979 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:48 pm Maybe he's upset that I insinuated that if the ending of the movie got an emotional response out of him, he was probably being manipulated.
I'll say it before and I'll say it again...this movie banks on you going into it already having a lot of emotional baggage for the character, and not just due to the preceding Heisei films. Just taking this movie on its own, an emotional response to Godzilla's death isn't really earned, because he's barely in the film and he doesn't really register as an actual character.
It's the same reason the ending of Godzilla '84 (in which Godzilla is this lumbering statue with no personality) makes people cry.
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Re: Godzilla vs. Destoroyah (1995)
Nobody mentioned Shin.LegendZilla wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:19 pm Godzilla in Shin did not exactly have a personality to speak of either.
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Re: Godzilla vs. Destoroyah (1995)
How is this relevant? Nothing in Shin wants to make us feel bad or sorrowful for Godzilla, at least on the surface.LegendZilla wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:19 pm Godzilla in Shin did not exactly have a personality to speak of either.
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Re: Godzilla vs. Destoroyah (1995)
For what wants to be a final hurrah for emotion for Godzilla, I always got more of a rise out of Juniors death at the hands of Destoroyah, and even then it’s more contingent on watching the previous two films. There is narrative whiplash with everyone being uncomfortably scared of what Godzilla is going to do, only for the final moments to suddenly force in a rather somber moment because we the audience will probably be sad.
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Re: Godzilla vs. Destoroyah (1995)
The reason why Junior's death works is because we see this overmatched creature barely survive against the aggregate Destroyah so he's already got our sympathy. But then his death is so cruel and unexpected that it's shocking the first time you see it. It works, and is the one emotional moment in the movie that feels earned.
The emotional response from Godzilla's death comes from a) our familiarity with the character from 21 previous movies and b) just how manipulative Ifukube's requiem is.
The emotional response from Godzilla's death comes from a) our familiarity with the character from 21 previous movies and b) just how manipulative Ifukube's requiem is.
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Re: Godzilla vs. Destoroyah (1995)
First of all, two completely different movie eras with entirely different narratives and film structures. Second of all, Shin had nothing to do with this conversation.LegendZilla wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 9:19 pmGodzilla in Shin did not exactly have a personality to speak of either.Legion1979 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 05, 2022 6:48 pm Maybe he's upset that I insinuated that if the ending of the movie got an emotional response out of him, he was probably being manipulated.
I'll say it before and I'll say it again...this movie banks on you going into it already having a lot of emotional baggage for the character, and not just due to the preceding Heisei films. Just taking this movie on its own, an emotional response to Godzilla's death isn't really earned, because he's barely in the film and he doesn't really register as an actual character.
It's the same reason the ending of Godzilla '84 (in which Godzilla is this lumbering statue with no personality) makes people cry.
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Re: Godzilla vs. Destoroyah (1995)
Shin is such a radical departure from any other Godzilla that there's absolutely no chance of an emotional response to his defeat. So why bring him up?
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Re: Godzilla vs. Destoroyah (1995)
I was going to say - as with (to a lesser extent) Koroku's work in your '84 example - Ifukube is doing a lot of the heavy lifting in Destoroyah.
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Re: Godzilla vs. Destoroyah (1995)
As someone who doesn't care for Destroyah (actually it ranks right at the bottom of my list) I think the big reason Godzilla's death works in the context of just Godzilla vs Destroyah is precisely because of Junior. We know that's his kid, we get the tender reunion moment, Godzilla breathes the energy onto him, and then once his affairs are in order, he beats the piss out of Destroyah and dies. Yeah, of course Ifukube does heavy lifting, but so does Satsuma, and the FX team. It works pretty well imo. The meltdown sequence is pretty top tier in terms of latter VS series effects.
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Re: Godzilla vs. Destoroyah (1995)
To be honest, i stand firm that it's all pretty much Ifukube. Watch the sequence with the sound off. Outside of maybe that last CGI shot of Godzilla finally melting down, it just doesn't work. In fact, that random smoke ring floating out of one the shots takes me out of the sequence every single time. But add Ifukube's requiem and, Christ, you get goosebumps.
Ifukube's scores are why anything in the Heisei series works at all.
Ifukube's scores are why anything in the Heisei series works at all.
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Re: Godzilla vs. Destoroyah (1995)
Would you care as to explain how you would re-work the entire film from scratch if given the opportunity? What elements would you preserve and what else would you modify.Legion1979 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:03 pm To be honest, i stand firm that it's all pretty much Ifukube. Watch the sequence with the sound off. Outside of maybe that last CGI shot of Godzilla finally melting down, it just doesn't work. In fact, that random smoke ring floating out of one the shots takes me out of the sequence every single time. But add Ifukube's requiem and, Christ, you get goosebumps.
Ifukube's scores are why anything in the Heisei series works at all.
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Re: Godzilla vs. Destoroyah (1995)
That's a question that's impossible to answer. I dont know why people ask that in regards to the Heisei series. Aside from certain elements (music, monster designs) many of these movies are deeply flawed when to comes to cinematography, writing, direction, acting and (in some cases) special effects. A movie like Destroyah, IMHO, would need a complete, ground-up revamp to actually be a GOOD film.LegendZilla wrote: ↑Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:59 pmWould you care as to explain how you would re-work the entire film from scratch if given the opportunity? What elements would you preserve and what else would you modify.Legion1979 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:03 pm To be honest, i stand firm that it's all pretty much Ifukube. Watch the sequence with the sound off. Outside of maybe that last CGI shot of Godzilla finally melting down, it just doesn't work. In fact, that random smoke ring floating out of one the shots takes me out of the sequence every single time. But add Ifukube's requiem and, Christ, you get goosebumps.
Ifukube's scores are why anything in the Heisei series works at all.
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Re: Godzilla vs. Destoroyah (1995)
Are any of the core ideas serving as the foundation for the plot innately bad?Legion1979 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 07, 2022 6:07 pmThat's a question that's impossible to answer. I dont know why people ask that in regards to the Heisei series. Aside from certain elements (music, monster designs) many of these movies are deeply flawed when to comes to cinematography, writing, direction, acting and (in some cases) special effects. A movie like Destroyah, IMHO, would need a complete, ground-up revamp to actually be a GOOD film.LegendZilla wrote: ↑Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:59 pmWould you care as to explain how you would re-work the entire film from scratch if given the opportunity? What elements would you preserve and what else would you modify.Legion1979 wrote: ↑Fri Jan 07, 2022 4:03 pm To be honest, i stand firm that it's all pretty much Ifukube. Watch the sequence with the sound off. Outside of maybe that last CGI shot of Godzilla finally melting down, it just doesn't work. In fact, that random smoke ring floating out of one the shots takes me out of the sequence every single time. But add Ifukube's requiem and, Christ, you get goosebumps.
Ifukube's scores are why anything in the Heisei series works at all.