Heisei Godzilla doesn't remember 84 or Biollante?

[miguelnuva]

Due to the time travel in Godzilla vs King Ghidorah the Heisei Godzilla we follow from that point on doesn't remember the events of 84 or meeting Biollante does he?

Terasawa explained to me how the time travel worked in GvsKG so from my understanding understanding he shouldn't remember those events and as a result was probably more off guard then we think with SpaceGodzilla.

[Marciosss]

Its time loop like in Harry Potter.
Timeline can't be changed. In fact Godzillla'84 always was born on Bering Sea, and Japan became Great Power thanks technology from Mecha Ghidorah.
Ghidorah just sleep on Island until 1992.

[canofhumdingers]

^Yep. ‘54 Godzilla was not the Godzillasaurus from Lagos, it was a different beast and was not affected by the events in this film.

The Heisei Godzilla is the dinosaur from Lagos. He was actually turned into Godzilla in the Bering Sea in the 1970’s (in time to go on his first rampage in 1984) because of the nuclear submarine sinking as mentioned in the newspaper article they find. Had the Futurians NOT moved the Godzillasaurus off Lagos, the Heisei Godzilla would not have been created. At some point during the film Godzilla moved from where he was resting after his fight with Biollante (as seen early in the film) back to the Bering sea where he’s lying in wait for Mr. Shindo’s privately owned nuclear attack submarine. When he consumes that radiation he grows another 20 meters taller (from 80 to 100m).

So rather than achieving their goals, the Futurians inadvertently created the second Godzilla ushering in the events of G1984 and GvsBio as well as giving Japan the tech of Mecha King Ghidorah to create MechaGodzilla, Moguera, etc.

It’s rather confusing and the film is not super clear at times, but I’m pretty sure that’s the correct sequence of events.

[eabaker]

Nothing in the movie supports the idea that it's an unchanging time loop, some things directly to contradict that idea (most notably the multiple versions of 2204 we see), and that interpretation significantly undercuts the story thematically.

However, the time travel also did not undo the events of 84 and GvsB - though it probably subtly altered them. The time travel altered Godzilla's origin, but it still lead to his birth prior to the events of 84 and GvsB

[miguelnuva]

Terasawa posted an explanation from another member awhile ago that explained the timeline pretty well. St first I use to support the time loop as well but after he explained it I think they actually did create a second Godzilla.

[canofhumdingers]

Nothing in the movie supports the idea that it's an unchanging time loop, some things directly to contradict that idea (most notably the multiple versions of 2204 we see), and that interpretation significantly undercuts the story thematically.

What do you mean two versions of 2204? If I’m not mistaken there are two scenes in the future (the opening sequence and then when Emmy goes back to create MKG) but they aren’t different futures. The first scene is them in the sub finding Ghidorah’s body and the second scene is really just a continuation of that same sequence of events where the guy agrees to help create MKG.

Regarding timeloops and whatnot; I suppose you could argue the original timeline has the Heisei Godzilla being created on Lagos and the modified timeline has him being created in the Bering Strait. But as you mention, regardless, he is created in time for the events of the previous two films to play out as seen. Personally I like the idea that it was actually the Futurians fault that Heisei Goji is created though I suppose the movie doesn’t specifically confirm or deny this.

[miguelnuva]

That deserves a very lengthy response, not only because I have to explain it but also because I have to refute the popular SciFi Japan theory. Suffice to say, this is not the thread to do so. Somewhere in this forum is a thread about the film's time travel, and in that thread is a 2019 post by Zarm that thoroughly explains why that theory is incorrect. It's also been discussed in the talkback thread, there by myself and eabaker and others.

But the short(er) answer to your question is, because the characters in the film say so, and their observations don't contradict what we the audience see:
At the beginning of the film we're told that Godzilla had been successfully inundated by ANEB and had been immobile off the coast of Japan for 1000 days.We see the events of time travel, including the teleportation of the dinosaur to the Bering Sea and the placement of the Dorats on the island.We're told that the JSDF had observed the disappearance of Godzilla from the Sea of Japan once the time travelers returned to 1992.We're told that King Ghidorah then suddenly appeared over the Pacific at the same time (confirming that the birth of King Ghidorah at Bikini replaced the birth of Godzilla at same).Characters call the Bering Sea Godzilla the "second Godzilla", and note that this one is bigger because it was irradiated by both more modern nuclear weapons (referring to the 1970s Soviet sub) and the energy from the Teiyo Group sub.Glenchiko notes that the Futurians had already "gotten rid of one" Godzilla, only for another to appear.The SciFi Japan explanation requires the acceptance of a lot of coincidences and content from other films despite sufficient explanations to the contrary in Godzilla vs King Ghidorah itself. The film presents a scenario not where the Futurians create the 1984-1992 Godzilla, but one where they successfully erase that creature from the present (1992) by accidentally giving it another origin in the Bering Sea.

July 6, 1992, 1430: The Futurians take a Japanese group back to Lagos Island during WWII.

February 6/7, 1944: Discover Godzillasaurus on Lagos. They jump ahead a week and transport the dinosaur to the Bering Sea.

July 6, 1992, 1500: Time travelers return to present + 30 minutes. Godzilla has disappeared.

He did not take an underwater hike from the Sea of Japan to the Bering Sea. The film establishes that (more below).The Futurians were successful in erasing Godzilla -- just not from history. This is the part where viewers get the most confused, because they try to apply "conventional" rules of time travel to the film when in fact it operates under its own unique time travel mechanics. The effect of moving the Godzillasaurus in 1944 does not erase the events of The Return of Godzilla, Godzilla vs Biollante, or even the first act of Godzilla vs King Ghidorah. Instead, that Godzilla is erased from the present-day, as soon as the time travelers return to 1992. This is confirmed by Wilson: when the Lagos expedition returns, he confirms that Godzilla is gone, saying something like "The JSDF just noted that he disappeared." This is why people still remember Godzilla, even though he's said to have been erased. The past still exists, as do memories. The present (from the perspective of when the time travel expedition departed for 1944) is the only thing that was changed.

You, and Keith Aiken, are asking the viewer to accept a huge coincidence, that Godzilla was compelled to travel thousands of miles underwater --without any good reason-- to the Bering Sea (which just so happens to be the exact place the dinosaur was transported). This is hard to swallow, considering the film establishes right up front that the ANEB was successful and that Godzilla had been motionless for 1000 days since GvB.

The other huge flaw in Keith's explanation is that it directly negates what the characters have to say. Kazuki Omori didn't script all those lines for no reason. When Wilson says the JSDF discovered that Godzilla disappeared he was neither lying or misinformed. (That would be a huge cheat to the audience.) When Wilson, Glenchiko, Fujio, and Dobashi all talk of Godzilla being "re-created", they're not talking figuratively. Godzilla was erased from 1992, but the placement of the dinosaur in the Bering Sea allowed it to be mutated by the radioactive waste from a downed Soviet Sub. This reborn Godzilla and the 1984-1992 Godzilla were both mutated from the same dinosaur; the nature of their respective mutations makes them different versions of the same animal, which was the point I was making in the post you quoted.

This is how the film lays it out. Honestly, please don't bother trying to apply the Keith Aiken logic as a rebuttal. God bless him for trying, but his "stable time loop" idea goes completely against the film's own conception of time travel.

Thus is how Terasawa broke down the events and it makes more sense then the stable time loop that I thought for years was the case.

[canofhumdingers]

Ah, I stand corrected. So my idea that the Futurians accidentally created Godzilla is basically correct. But the Godzilla from ‘84 and vsBiollante in fact disappears in 1992 and is replaced by the new mutation in the Bering Sea. That’s makes sense but darn if it’s not a confusing movie! The crux of the issue lies in the fact that time traveler’s actions in the past only affect the immediate present and do not actually change prior history. Which, as pointed out, is contrary to most time travel stories.

[eabaker]

Nothing in the movie supports the idea that it's an unchanging time loop, some things directly to contradict that idea (most notably the multiple versions of 2204 we see), and that interpretation significantly undercuts the story thematically.

What do you mean two versions of 2204? If I’m not mistaken there are two scenes in the future (the opening sequence and then when Emmy goes back to create MKG) but they aren’t different futures. The first scene is them in the sub finding Ghidorah’s body and the second scene is really just a continuation of that same sequence of events where the guy agrees to help create MKG.

Sorry, you're right, I sort of jumbled things up.

There are clearly two different 2204s, but you're right that we only see one of them.

The Futurians initially come from a timeline in which Godzilla never re-appeared after 1990, and Japan achieved economic dominance. However, the two 2204 scenes we see are from a version of the future in which Godzilla laid waste to Japan.

Added in 2 minutes 41 seconds:

Ah, I stand corrected. So my idea that the Futurians accidentally created Godzilla is basically correct. But the Godzilla from ‘84 and vsBiollante in fact disappears in 1992 and is replaced by the new mutation in the Bering Sea. That’s makes sense but darn if it’s not a confusing movie! The crux of the issue lies in the fact that time traveler’s actions in the past only affect the immediate present and do not actually change prior history. Which, as pointed out, is contrary to most time travel stories.

Yeah, there's really no way to apply "logic" to the way time travel works in the movie; time travel works the way that is necessary for the sake of story and theme.

[canofhumdingers]

It also means the question of this thread title is, in fact, correct. The newly created Godzilla in 1992 would not have experienced the events in ‘84 or vsBio even though he was spawned from the same Godzillasaurus.

Fascinating!

[eabaker]

It also means the question of this thread title is, in fact, correct. The newly created Godzilla in 1992 would not have experienced the events in ‘84 or vsBio even though he was spawned from the same Godzillasaurus.

Fascinating!

Well, he wouldn't remember those events exactly as we witnessed them, but presumably he'd remember some very similar alternate version...?

[SpiderZilla]

It also means the question of this thread title is, in fact, correct. The newly created Godzilla in 1992 would not have experienced the events in ‘84 or vsBio even though he was spawned from the same Godzillasaurus.

I presume the reverse is also true: The newly created Godzilla experienced events prior to 1992 that no one else remembers.

[miguelnuva]

It also means the question of this thread title is, in fact, correct. The newly created Godzilla in 1992 would not have experienced the events in ‘84 or vsBio even though he was spawned from the same Godzillasaurus.

Fascinating!

Well, he wouldn't remember those events exactly as we witnessed them, but presumably he'd remember some very similar alternate version...?

If he popped back up in 92 he would have skipped those events. I'm think Godzilla is seeing the world for the first time in his mind sense 1944 so he's basically a stronger 84 Godzilla at this point. Everything is new to him. I think it makes him encountered SpaceG more interesting as SpaceG probably knows whats going on the way Biollante did.

[eabaker]

It also means the question of this thread title is, in fact, correct. The newly created Godzilla in 1992 would not have experienced the events in ‘84 or vsBio even though he was spawned from the same Godzillasaurus.

Fascinating!

Well, he wouldn't remember those events exactly as we witnessed them, but presumably he'd remember some very similar alternate version...?

If he popped back up in 92 he would have skipped those events. I'm think Godzilla is seeing the world for the first time in his mind sense 1944 so he's basically a stronger 84 Godzilla at this point. Everything is new to him. I think it makes him encountered SpaceG more interesting as SpaceG probably knows whats going on the way Biollante did.

He didn't "pop up" in 92 from a void though. He still experienced his own history in one form or another, even if it's not the history the world around him remembers.

[canofhumdingers]

It’s kind of a conundrum isn’t it? The 80’s Goji disappears from existence in 1992. But the “new”’Godzilla is the same Godzillasaurus, except now he’s been in the Bering Strait since 1944 and was created by a nuclear sub accident in the 70’s (though it’s not clear that he was born then. He could’ve been exposed at any point after the accident). So he theoretically could have been hanging out in the Bering sea while his alternate self was smashing Tokyo and fighting Biollante.

Except the film (at least the dub, which I watched recently) explicitly states two of the same person (or creature?) can’t exist in the same place at the same time. They don't define “place” but it could be taken to mean you can’t have two versions in existence at the same time. Which would then likely mean that the new godzilla popped into existence in the Bering sea the moment the old godzilla popped out of existence in the Sea of Japan. And I think that probably best aligns with what is actually shown in the film. I think the old godzilla pops out of existence and simultaneously the Godzillasaurus pops into existence in the Bering strait where he is immediately exposed to the sunken soviet sub and mutates into Godzilla, who is then lying in wait for Shindo’s sub. Which would also explain why the sub crew is surprised to find a full Godzilla instead of a wounded Godzillasaurus. This also eliminates the need for a wounded Godzillasaurus to somehow magically survive 30+ years at the bottom of the sea waiting for the Russian sub to sink.

Holy cow, I think I FINALLY understand the plot of this movie!

[eabaker]

As I interpret it: in 1992, history is altered, with Godzilla as the focal point of this alteration. As a result, the Godzilla that has experienced "our" version of history ceases to exist, and is replaced by a Godzilla who has experienced a different version of history, but it still experienced some version of those 47 years.

But, of course, the fundamental problem with interpreting time travel in this movie is that it's not internally consistent. Time travel from 2204 back to 1992 does not seem to follow the same rules as time travel from 1992 to 1945.

[miguelnuva]

As I interpret it: in 1992, history is altered, with Godzilla as the focal point of this alteration. As a result, the Godzilla that has experienced "our" version of history ceases to exist, and is replaced by a Godzilla who has experienced a different version of history, but it still experienced some version of those 47 years.

But, of course, the fundamental problem with interpreting time travel in this movie is that it's not internally consistent. Time travel from 2204 back to 1992 does not seem to follow the same rules as time travel from 1992 to 1945.

The only problem with that is was Ghidorah hanging around for 30 years. I think canofhumdingers might have gotten it down.

Ghidorah pops up in 92 when the Futurians arrive, the Godzillasaurs pops up in 92 and is immediately mutated. The dinosaur would only be underwater at 2 points, in 1944 and then in 92 he becomes Godzilla.

Time travel looks like what ever you change from the point you leave effects when you return. Godzilla is only effected in 1992 and 1944 but Ghidorah is effected in 1992 and 2204 for example.

Altered Heisei Godzilla having another history is an interesting point Eabaker makes me wish Toho would have done a mini pamphlet of the altered 84 and Biollante events.

[eabaker]

Time travel looks like what ever you change from the point you leave effects when you return. Godzilla is only effected in 1992 and 1944 but Ghidorah is effected in 1992 and 2204 for example.

But travel between 1992 and 1945 does not change the history the characters remember, whereas travel between 2204 and 1992 results in a completely separate timeline.

[miguelnuva]

Time travel looks like what ever you change from the point you leave effects when you return. Godzilla is only effected in 1992 and 1944 but Ghidorah is effected in 1992 and 2204 for example.

But travel between 1992 and 1945 does not change the history the characters remember, whereas travel between 2204 and 1992 results in a completely separate timeline.

As you said time travel complicates everything but let's try this

Godzilla and Ghidorah are changing the future not the time travelers. Let me try.

Godzilla is only effected in 44 and 92 because he is altered. Everything between that still happens. Godzilla from 92 onward can now change History.

Ghidorah is the same way. These two go through historical events but they don't pop up until time returns to the point the Futurians return. Ghidorah is nuked in 54 but doesn't appear until 92. Godzilla is nuked in the 70's but isn't active until 92.

Now Emi is linked 2204 because that's where her history is from. Because Godzilla and Ghidorah's history starts in 45 they go through Shadow history until 92. Once 92 hits they can alter the timeline of 2204. Emi hints that not only did Godzilla I not return to Japan but he also would have defended it from Ghidorah. That is timeline A that Emi and the others travel from.

When Emi returns she is in Timeline B where Godzilla has destroyed Japan and Ghidorah is at the bottom of the Sea. Emi linked to 2204 goes back to 92 and creates timeline C.

Now Mecha Ghidorah is at the bottom of the sea and Godzilla goes through the rest of the Heisei series.

Honestly it feels like the movie is using 3 different time travel rules from other films. Godzilla and Ghidorah are altered in 1944 and appear in 1992. Godzilla alters 2204 as a result.
Emi comes from 2204 so anything she does in 1992 affects 2204. Anything Emi does in 1944 only effects 1992.

The difference in why history changed is Emi added Godzilla and Ghidorah to history while Godzilla himself who is already apart of history is just changing events he was already added to.

[canofhumdingers]

Time travel looks like what ever you change from the point you leave effects when you return. Godzilla is only effected in 1992 and 1944 but Ghidorah is effected in 1992 and 2204 for example.

But travel between 1992 and 1945 does not change the history the characters remember, whereas travel between 2204 and 1992 results in a completely separate timeline.

But does it? The film doesn’t really give us much to go on regarding the changes to 2204. I think we have to assume that if things pop in or out of existence in 1992 based on what they did in 1944, then things (like KG’s body at the bottom of the ocean) must pop in or out of existence in 2204 based on what they do in 1992. Nothing in the film really contradicts this.

Where it gets dicey is when considering the timeline of events that occur now that Godzilla exists and is active again not aligning with the history the Futurians say is going to happen. But I don’t recall them specifically saying Godzilla never comes back. But clearly he never destroys japan’s ability to become the super power (and again, you could theorize that their interference actually helps Japan become so powerful by giving them a massive leap in robotics and computers when they salvage MGK).

But it’s also possible the time travel creates branching timelines. But each time traveler is not able to jump timelines. So, Emi comes back to 1992 (and 1944) and alters events, but she is only able to return to her original future, not this new future with Godzilla around (which is the future we as viewers experience through the rest of the Heisei films). So she was not actually able to change her own past, but only have an effect on her own future (by things popping in or out of existence). This would also jive with the characters from 1992 not being able to change their own past (G84 and Biollante) but only able to create a diverging timeline from the point they initiated their time travel (1992).

Added in 11 minutes 5 seconds:
Haha, I just realized miguelnuva nailed in his first sentence in the quote.

And it’s an interesting point and one not even the Futurians understood. The time travel rules in this film are such that you cannot alter your own past. Changes you make to the past only affect your future from the point you began time traveling.

It’s actually pretty funny when you think about it. The Futurians stole the time machine in order to change their own past without understanding how the machine actually worked. They could never achieve their stated goals with the machine they stole.