Creating New Iconic Monsters

[Legion1979]

....how exactly would that lead to this hypothetical new monster being iconic?

[LegendZilla]

....how exactly would that lead to this hypothetical new monster being iconic?

What exactly led to the other big 5 being iconic?

[miguelnuva]

....how exactly would that lead to this hypothetical new monster being iconic?

What exactly led to the other big 5 being iconic?

Good stories, looking cool and drawing money.

[eabaker]

....how exactly would that lead to this hypothetical new monster being iconic?

What exactly led to the other big 5 being iconic?

Largely, being distinctive takes on familiar forms and tapping into the zeitgeist.

[Legion1979]

You can't force something to be iconic. An iconic character HAPPENS. It's not made. And tellingly, there hasn't been a truly iconic Toho monster created since the 70s.

This thread just keeps going around in circles.

"You can't make something iconic."
"But what if they did this...?"
"You CANT make something iconic."
"But what if they did this...?"
"You CANT MAKE something iconic."
"But....."

[miguelnuva]

You can't force something to be iconic. An iconic character HAPPENS. It's not made. And tellingly, there hasn't been a truly iconic Toho monster created since the 70s.

This thread just keeps going around in circles.

"You can't make something iconic."
"But what if they did this...?"
"You CANT make something iconic."
"But what if they did this...?"
"You CANT MAKE something iconic."
"But....."

Legion you are adding to that circle just as much as anyone else in the thread. No you can't say we're going to make this new monster and it will be as over as Godzilla but they know the steps. You make a good design and a good story and then hope for the best. Nothing iconic has stuck around because Toho is afraid to venture out from Godzilla. Rodan and Mothra popped up when before Godzilla was the face of the franchise, Ghidorah was the rival that took on the other big 3 and MechaGodzilla is the mechanical double.

If Toho really sat down and tried they could create something iconic but its easier to always go back to Godzilla.

[Legion1979]

Nothing iconic has stuck around because Toho is afraid to venture out from Godzilla.

Wait, what? What does thay even mean?

If Toho really sat down and tried they could create something iconic but its easier to always go back to Godzilla.

I'm confused as to why you think Toho would HAVE to create monsters in films outside of Godzilla movies for them to become iconic.

And again, you can't create something with the intent of making it become iconic. That's not how it works.

[miguelnuva]

Nothing iconic has stuck around because Toho is afraid to venture out from Godzilla.

Wait, what? What does thay even mean?

If Toho really sat down and tried they could create something iconic but its easier to always go back to Godzilla.

I'm confused as to why you think Toho would HAVE to create monsters in films outside of Godzilla movies for them to become iconic.

And again, you can't create something with the intent of making it become iconic. That's not how it works.

Not saying let's sit down and this is going to be iconic, but they do have a formula. Make monster that looks cool or is eye catching then make a good movie behind it. Also it depends on what is being set out to do. Iconic status can not be forced upon but you can very well create something with the intent.

Let me try this, the big 5 are cakes that have all been made and Toho has the recipe but that doesn't mean someone else can make the cake as good as the first 5. They know what worked with the Big 5 but could they do it again is the question due to the many factors.

It is going to be easier to do this with a monster outside of the Godzilla series because Godzilla over shines his opponents the majority of the time. Biollante for example was a monster with potential but Godzilla draws attention away from her in her film. Toho is also a business so it is easier to rely on you're guys that are money makers then attempt to create a new star.

Godzilla 2000 and Megagurius to me show Toho thinks audiences won't latch to new kaiju buts it's also another reason I feel that if Mr Six was ever created Toho would have to do so outside the Godzilla series.

I look at it like professional wrestling, wwe knows how to create new stars but they haven't had a true mega star since the mid 2000's where as in the 80's and 90's they were pumping then out. All if the new Toho kaiju since the Heisei series fir the most part have been in flops.

Shin Godzilla shows Godzilla's star power but it also shows what the correct team can do if Toho finds the right people.

Get the right team, get a design and maybe a message and plan out a trilogy or so around this new kaiju. If it flops, cancel the trigloy and you have a new kaiju design. If the first stroy works now you are in the process of creating an icon.

[LegendZilla]

^The question is that why hasn't Toho had the morale to make such a move since the Showa era?

[eabaker]

Here's the thing about the first five cakes: they are chocolate, yellow, white, red velvet, chantilly. They are flavors that fundamentally work for cake. And while you can tweak and perfect the recipes, those fundamental flavors aren't inventions.

The "Big 5" kaiju are iconic in part because of their simplicity, because they are at a conceptual level unique yet recognizable, and ineffably... right for kaiju-ness.

You can tweak existing recipes, and you can introduce interesting alternatives that people like to have for a little variety, but you don't invent a new iconic cake flavor, you discover it.

[LegendZilla]

If MechaG is chantilly, why can't a hypothetical MechaMothra pass as such too?

[miguelnuva]

Here's the thing about the first five cakes: they are chocolate, yellow, white, red velvet, chantilly. They are flavors that fundamentally work for cake. And while you can tweak and perfect the recipes, those fundamental flavors aren't inventions.

The "Big 5" kaiju are iconic in part because of their simplicity, because they are at a conceptual level unique yet recognizable, and ineffably... right for kaiju-ness.

You can tweak existing recipes, and you can introduce interesting alternatives that people like to have for a little variety, but you don't invent a new iconic cake flavor, you discover it.

I'd argue you do create the iconic cake, you just don't get an iconic cake every time you create a new flavor nor do you tell the consumer this is the new iconic cake. Toho wanted to make money when they created Godzilla, Mothra and Rodan and the people made them iconic. Ghidorah and MechaGodzilla soon followed. Toho themselves have suffered from low box office and thus they haven't gone back to these new kaiju and instead bring back they're icons over and over.

Toho would literally have to put a new cake out and try and see if people fawn to it. A new kaiju wouldn't join the big 5 from one good film, it probably wouldn't even be the 6th kaiju if it had a successful trilogy of films. I'm thinking if Toho wanted to create a 6th kaiju it would be us coming back to this thread in 20 years.

Toho would have to get 3 or 4 big films where japan loves the kaiju, America takes to the kaiju to a lesser degree in japan and then eventually you probably have to do the fight with Godzilla at that point.

[eabaker]

Here's the thing about the first five cakes: they are chocolate, yellow, white, red velvet, chantilly. They are flavors that fundamentally work for cake. And while you can tweak and perfect the recipes, those fundamental flavors aren't inventions.

The "Big 5" kaiju are iconic in part because of their simplicity, because they are at a conceptual level unique yet recognizable, and ineffably... right for kaiju-ness.

You can tweak existing recipes, and you can introduce interesting alternatives that people like to have for a little variety, but you don't invent a new iconic cake flavor, you discover it.

I'd argue you do create the iconic cake, you just don't get an iconic cake every time you create a new flavor nor do you tell the consumer this is the new iconic cake. Toho wanted to make money when they created Godzilla, Mothra and Rodan and the people made them iconic. Ghidorah and MechaGodzilla soon followed. Toho themselves have suffered from low box office and thus they haven't gone back to these new kaiju and instead bring back they're icons over and over.

Toho would literally have to put a new cake out and try and see if people fawn to it. A new kaiju wouldn't join the big 5 from one good film, it probably wouldn't even be the 6th kaiju if it had a successful trilogy of films. I'm thinking if Toho wanted to create a 6th kaiju it would be us coming back to this thread in 20 years.

Toho would have to get 3 or 4 big films where japan loves the kaiju, America takes to the kaiju to a lesser degree in japan and then eventually you probably have to do the fight with Godzilla at that point.

I think we're just saying the same thing in different ways. Yes, Toho should try to innovate, and innovation is the only way to happen upon lightning in a bottle. However, you can't set out with the goal of "catch lightning in a bottle," or you'll... miss the forest for the trees. I'm really mixing and matching metaphors here. You just have to try to create good stories and good designs, and if you're incredibly lucky and genuinely attuned to the zeitgeist, you might just end up with something that can grow into iconic status.

Added in 32 seconds:

If MechaG is chantilly, why can't a hypothetical MechaMothra pass as such too?

Because it doesn't taste the same.

[miguelnuva]

Here's the thing about the first five cakes: they are chocolate, yellow, white, red velvet, chantilly. They are flavors that fundamentally work for cake. And while you can tweak and perfect the recipes, those fundamental flavors aren't inventions.

The "Big 5" kaiju are iconic in part because of their simplicity, because they are at a conceptual level unique yet recognizable, and ineffably... right for kaiju-ness.

You can tweak existing recipes, and you can introduce interesting alternatives that people like to have for a little variety, but you don't invent a new iconic cake flavor, you discover it.

I'd argue you do create the iconic cake, you just don't get an iconic cake every time you create a new flavor nor do you tell the consumer this is the new iconic cake. Toho wanted to make money when they created Godzilla, Mothra and Rodan and the people made them iconic. Ghidorah and MechaGodzilla soon followed. Toho themselves have suffered from low box office and thus they haven't gone back to these new kaiju and instead bring back they're icons over and over.

Toho would literally have to put a new cake out and try and see if people fawn to it. A new kaiju wouldn't join the big 5 from one good film, it probably wouldn't even be the 6th kaiju if it had a successful trilogy of films. I'm thinking if Toho wanted to create a 6th kaiju it would be us coming back to this thread in 20 years.

Toho would have to get 3 or 4 big films where japan loves the kaiju, America takes to the kaiju to a lesser degree in japan and then eventually you probably have to do the fight with Godzilla at that point.

I think we're just saying the same thing in different ways. Yes, Toho should try to innovate, and innovation is the only way to happen upon lightning in a bottle. However, you can't set out with the goal of "catch lightning in a bottle," or you'll... miss the forest for the trees. I'm really mixing and matching metaphors here. You just have to try to create good stories and good designs, and if you're incredibly lucky and genuinely attuned to the zeitgeist, you might just end up with something that can grow into iconic status.

[

Agreed. Like I said above if Mr Six was created in 2023 for example it would probaly be late 2030's before Toho even recognized a new 6th big kaiju.

[edgaguirus]

I suppose Salunga might provide a way to number 6. Toho is reluctant to create new kaiju, so they could always go back to an obscure one, and then give it a redesign and new coat of paint. If it's backed up by a good script and film, and maybe a social/political message tossed in, it might come up with a contender. If Toho tried it.

[eabaker]

If you're having to backtrack and toss in elements that aren't organic to the character, I'd say you're liable to end up with a chemical aftertaste.

[StardustGenius]

Let's be honest here, Hedorah and Gigan have the best odds of being promoted to No.6. MAYBE Biollante or Destoroyah. It really all depends on what Hollywood will want to do.

[eabaker]

Let's be honest here, Hedorah and Gigan have the best odds of being promoted to No.6. MAYBE Biollante or Destoroyah. It really all depends on what Hollywood will want to do.

I would say that Hedorah has the best odds, in that it is rooted in a metaphor with ongoing significance, and the design is simple yet distinctive and is immediately evocative of what the monster represents.

[Legion1979]

Let's be honest here, Hedorah and Gigan have the best odds of being promoted to No.6. MAYBE Biollante or Destoroyah. It really all depends on what Hollywood will want to do.

I would say that Hedorah has the best odds, in that it is rooted in a metaphor with ongoing significance, and the design is simple yet distinctive and is immediately evocative of what the monster represents.

And, you know, he's been an incredibly popular cult favorite for over 20 years now.

[SpiderZilla]

Let's be honest here, Hedorah and Gigan have the best odds of being promoted to No.6. MAYBE Biollante or Destoroyah. It really all depends on what Hollywood will want to do.

I would say that Hedorah has the best odds, in that it is rooted in a metaphor with ongoing significance, and the design is simple yet distinctive and is immediately evocative of what the monster represents.

On the other hand, Gigan appeared in 2 Showa films and appeared in 2 different forms in GFW. Gigan also has the distinction of being the first opponent to make Godzilla bleed.