Creating New Iconic Monsters

[eabaker]

There was an interesting conversation developing in the GttHM thread about Toho's failure to introduce any new monsters since the 1970s that could foreseeably rise to the popularity of the "Big 5." Let's keep that discussing going in this thread!

[Gigantis]

Toho definitely tried to add onto the already existing Big 5. None of their attempts succeeded, but I think they definitely tried across the Heisei era, and also the beginning of the Millennium era.

Biollante I feel as if was their first attempt to try to make a new, really big name monster. Next there was SpaceGodzilla, then Destoroyah, and finally Orga and Megaguirus. All of them were really hyped up when it came to marketing for their films, and the first three I mentioned had gotten TONS of merch to their name, which is something that continues even now. Despite that, I think they just had a really bad string of luck when it came to them. Biollante's movie? Flopped. SpaceGodzilla did okay at the box office but after a while the kaiju himself got a lot of scorn by fans, Destoroyah wound up being such a "final boss" level villain that Toho probably won't even think of using him in a movie unless its the end of another string of films, and both G2000 and vs. Megaguirus weren't the hits they expected to be.

All that just lead to them retreading the same monsters again, because.. Y'know, if you make new monsters that don't take off, naturally the company that tries to make money is going to focus on the kaiju that will bring in the cash.

Honestly I think adding a sixth monster to the big 5 at this point is impossible. Toho would have to REALLY try marketing it, then have it pop up in a bunch of crossover material with the other five, and that could easily backfire if its starting movie winds up being a flop. Not to mention, it would take decades for a new monster to be recognized as part of a group consisting of characters that are 60/50 something years old.

[mikelcho]

It's just me, I know, but I always considered that Anguirus should be added to the list.

He may have appeared only in the Showa and Millennium eras and not in the Heisei era, but he was one of the first kaiju to be created, he's fought three of the Big Five and in two of the cases lived to tell about it, he's popular among the fans, he made many movies back in the day, he's very distinctive-looking in appearance and he has a great-sounding roar.

[Legion1979]

Ehhhhh. I love Angilas, but he's just not upper echelon the way the other 5 most popular Toho monsters are. I think at this point Toho's top 5 are set in stone. There's more to a pop culture character transcending popularity and becoming truly iconic than the stuff you mentioned, mikelcho. But damned if I know what it is. If Toho knew what it was Mechagodzilla wouldn't have been the last of the big 5 to be created, almost 50 Yeats ago.

[Voyager]

Toho definitely tried, but the problem is that the new monsters are either a) too forgettable, or b) too thematically tied to the movies they were in.

I can see B category monsters making it big, like they already have, but taking it up a notch. These are chiefly the Heisei Monsters. Biollante I feel could be an attempt to capture the magic of Mothra, but twisting the status quo of what you’d think of when you hear a benevolent, female kaiju. I also feel Destoroyah and SpaceGodzilla may have been an attempt to redo King Ghidorah and MechaGodzilla all over again, but for Destoroyah, he is too tied to the movie he was in, and for SpaceG, he just doesn’t have that same flair that made Mechagodzilla so popular.

For A category monsters, you can probably guess why. Orga and Megaguirus are cool and all, but they don’t really stick out. You could also have Battra here, since this is just another large bug that is all too common in the Toho catalogue. Props for not somehow connecting Megaguirus back to Mothra, but she is just too forgettable. Then we have Toho’s most recent creations, Monster X and Salunga. They’ll never be even considered big 5 material thanks in part to them having connections to other kaiju. Salunga is Gabara in the 21st century and Monster X is a humanoid Ghidorah.

Adding someone to the Big 5 is like adding another character to your Core Justice League. Batman, Superman, Flash, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Aquaman.

[Legion1979]

I think Gigan is closer to be included on a top tier list than most other monsters are, honestly.

[LegendZilla]

^If they can create new superheroes each decade that achieve mass popularity, then why should making new kaiju be any different? Look at the Ultraman franchise for example. Ultraman Zero was created a little more than a decade ago and yet he's become one of the most popular characters in the series. The same goes for Marvel and DC.

Regarding Voyager's post, I'd argue that the same themes can be explored more than once, just with through a different lens. Would it make a difference if a new film in which a new kaiju was thematically tied to was legitimately good? Would it help if such themes were explored in let's say a two-parter or even three parter?

[eabaker]

As I said in the other thread, there's no formula for lightning in a bottle. None of the big 5 were created with the intention of becoming icons; they were created for the sake of making on exciting, compelling movie.

And one thing they have in common is an element of simplicity. Both in concept and in design, they're all fairly straight-forward. The more that you try to actively expand an existing roster, the more you're going to contrive and over-think, and deprive your creation of the elegance necessary for it to achieve the success you're aiming for.

[Legion1979]

Yup. Biollante and Destroyer's biggest roadblock to coming back is how closely they're tied not only the narratives of the movies they appear in but to Godzilla himself.

The story of Biollabte is what makes that monster special. Rose + human being + Godzilla is what makes her a horribly tragic creature. Meanwhile, Destroyer's origin ties directly to the Oxygen Destroyer and the very first Godzilla film. Both creatures lose their mystique if you bring them back and strip them of their origins.

Meanwhile...
Rodan - giant pteradon
Mothra - giant moth god
KIng Ghidorah - space dragon
Mechagodzilla - robot Godzilla

No big shock that, in the past 25 years it's those four that keep coming back, and NOT Destroyer or Biollante.

And Space Godzilla...? Yuck.

[JAGzilla]

And Space Godzilla...? Yuck.

Why? Yeah, his original movie failed to execute him well, but why not give him another shot? He has no real origin to worry about beyond 'space', and the crystal gimmick gives him both a unique visual identity and a lot of interesting versatility.

[Legion1979]

I've always felt his design was awful. But if you change it completely is it really SPACE GODZILLA anymore, or just A space Godzilla.

[Handsome Shrek]

Biollante is fine if you remove the stupid human spirit aspect of it.

[eabaker]

Biollante is fine if you remove the stupid human spirit aspect of it.

Why would you remove one of the most interesting and unique aspects of the story?

[Legion1979]

Biollante is fine if you remove the stupid human spirit aspect of it.

Why would you remove one of the most interesting and unique aspects of the story?

Yeah that's what makes Biollante Biollante.

You lose A LOT of the story without that element.

[Voyager]

That didn’t stop the Heisei filmmakers from removing one of KG’s core attributes, being an alien.

[eabaker]

That didn’t stop the Heisei filmmakers from removing one of KG’s core attributes, being an alien.

And fans have been complaining about it for 30 years, which would seem to support Legion's point.

ETA: Though I don't personally feel that KG's being from outer space is entirely integral to his character - what little there is there is to it - the way that a human spirit is integral to Biollante. KG was able to achieve iconic status in part because his characterization is at its core pretty uncomplicated.

[miguelnuva]

In today's environment A monster tied to Global warming or Biotechnology I feel could catch on if done right. Especially after the pandemic you could create a monster just as scary as Godzilla, maybe it is made in a lab and escapes and when humans attack it it's blood leaves behind an airborne virus?

Now for a cheap option I was talking with friend about. If Toho decided that Shin Godzilla was now it's own thing and separate from Godzilla, shin could theoretically be the 6th kaiju. Shin is a version of Godzilla but when you think about it Shin can be almost as far removed from Godzilla as MechaGodzilla and Shin could serve as the Evil Ultraman, Venom or Bizzaro of the franchise.

Toho could reveal next week the 70th anniversary film is Shin Godzilla vs Godzilla for example.

If they got Anno back or someone of the caliber they branching off Shin Godzilla from Godzilla could even allow its own many franchise. Maybe a Shin film comes out where the tail humans are killing people and trying to thaw Shin out for example?

[LegendZilla]

That didn’t stop the Heisei filmmakers from removing one of KG’s core attributes, being an alien.

And fans have been complaining about it for 30 years, which would seem to support Legion's point.

ETA: Though I don't personally feel that KG's being from outer space is entirely integral to his character - what little there is there is to it - the way that a human spirit is integral to Biollante. KG was able to achieve iconic status in part because his characterization is at its core pretty uncomplicated.

Was the idea of bringing in time travel itself the problem or was it merely the execution? Another argument I'd like to make to counter Legion's is that simplicity does not equal good. It just makes something easier to work with, which in turn can lead to oversaturation. With characters like Biollante and Dessy, it would just take some outside-the-box thinking to make them work again.

[Gigantis]

Now for a cheap option I was talking with friend about. If Toho decided that Shin Godzilla was now it's own thing and separate from Godzilla, shin could theoretically be the 6th kaiju. Shin is a version of Godzilla but when you think about it Shin can be almost as far removed from Godzilla as MechaGodzilla and Shin could serve as the Evil Ultraman, Venom or Bizzaro of the franchise.

Toho could reveal next week the 70th anniversary film is Shin Godzilla vs Godzilla for example.

If they got Anno back or someone of the caliber they branching off Shin Godzilla from Godzilla could even allow its own many franchise. Maybe a Shin film comes out where the tail humans are killing people and trying to thaw Shin out for example?

IDK, isn't that gonna get confusing after a while? If Toho labels Shin as his own character, that basically means every wildly different version of a character could count as their own guy. Especially since Toho seems to be actively trying to make each new version of Godzilla, Ghidorah and Mechagodzilla wildly different from the last. Wouldn't that also mean the Polygon trilogy versions would also be different characters? Or Ultima?

[Breakdown]

Biollante is fine if you remove the stupid human spirit aspect of it.

Please God no. Don't make Biollante into another mindless monster like she's been portrayed as in recent media. Her human side is what makes her unique and tragic.