Creating New Iconic Monsters

[StardustGenius]

Walking pile of pollution would be loud enough to get everyone's attention for sure. Success, presentation and execution are what create something iconic. If Mothra vs Bagan had been made, and it was a major success, Bagan would be "iconic".

I would argue there is precedent to "force" or "designate" an icon or major popularity. Just never happened in Godzilla before. More often than not it doesn't work, but has worked before (Kazuchika Okada, of New Japan Pro Wrestling). Part of it though, is that whatever is being pushed or forced, has to be really good and on another level unlike before, for it to work.

But that would require a lot of things on the behalf of Toho and WB/Legendary that I do not see happening.

[Legion1979]

Let's be honest here, Hedorah and Gigan have the best odds of being promoted to No.6. MAYBE Biollante or Destoroyah. It really all depends on what Hollywood will want to do.

I would say that Hedorah has the best odds, in that it is rooted in a metaphor with ongoing significance, and the design is simple yet distinctive and is immediately evocative of what the monster represents.

On the other hand, Gigan appeared in 2 Showa films and appeared in 2 different forms in GFW. Gigan also has the distinction of being the first opponent to make Godzilla bleed.

But as we've established, those things don't necessarily make a monster iconic. I doubt anyone but hardcore fans even care that Gigan holds some movie-specific distinction of causing Godzilla to bleed.

[StardustGenius]

Gigan could work, but his odds are not as good as Hedorah's. It really depends on what any future major project will want to do. If there is a Godzilla video game, and Gigan is a major character such as an end boss etc, and the game is a huge success on a bunch of levels, you have your next icon. What matters is presentation and success. Keep in mind none of this means that Gigan or Hedorah are going to be promoted, I was merely stating that these two have the best odds of moving up the ranks.

If Godzilla vs Varan had been made, the unmade project that depicted Varan essentially in the same role as Bagan, and it was the final Heisei series film, Varan would be in the same position as Destoroyah.

[eabaker]

Gigan is awesome, he's a fan favorite, but there's nothing about him that is immediately accessible and widely evocative the way that is necessary for a character's impact to transcend the fandom.

[miguelnuva]

If Varan's first movie was good he might actually be in the 6th spot regardless of the unmade Godzilla vs Varan.

If the first Varan was a success like the Big 3 I'm thinking he's in Gtthm, MZ and replaces Angurius in DAM and the 70's films potentially.

[eabaker]

If Varan's first movie qas good he might actually be in the 6th spot regardless of the unmade Godzilla vs Varan.

If the first Varan was a success like the Big 3 I'm thinking he's in Gtthm, MZ and replaces Angurius in DAM and the 70's films potentially.

What about Varan would make him fundamentally distinctive and culturally significant in a world where Godzilla already exists?

[miguelnuva]

If Varan's first movie was good he might actually be in the 6th spot regardless of the unmade Godzilla vs Varan.

If the first Varan was a success like the Big 3 I'm thinking he's in Gtthm, MZ and replaces Angurius in DAM and the 70's films potentially.

What about Varan would make him fundamentally distinctive and culturally significant in a world where Godzilla already exists?

He would have been a flying dinosaur that hung around Godzilla and Rodan. In the hypothetical scenario where I said if Varan's movie had been as successful as Godzilla Rodan and Mothra something would have caused him to stick around. If his movie was a big as the other 3 I'm assuming him not needing too much wirework might have got him a role in the Ghidorah films.

Godzilla is iconic just because he presents a cultural aspect of Japan, it's a big part of him but he's also iconic because he looks cool and destroys and fights other kaiju.

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Personally I feel like GTTHM monster is the film that locked in the Big 4.

Godzilla had a big adventure with Kong then he and Mothra helped each other out but Ghidorah I feel isnthe big nexus point.

[eabaker]

I just don't see Varan as fundamentally evocative of anything specific, distinctive and broadly relatable in terms of concept, design, or metaphor. Nothing about Varan says, "Once you have seen this, you will never forget it."

[miguelnuva]

I just don't see Varan as fundamentally evocative of anything specific, distinctive and broadly relatable in terms of concept, design, or metaphor. Nothing about Varan says, "Once you have seen this, you will never forget it."

Because he movie was no good. I'm thinking of a reality where if his movie was as well received as Rodan, Godzilla and Mothra's films I could see Varan having made the leep.

It was just a response to Stardustgigan mentioning Godzilla vs Varan in the Heisei series, Varanbyo me missed his chance in 58.

[Legion1979]

What the hell is with this weird American fan obsession with Varan? He's nothing. He's Godzilla, Rodan and Angilas in a blender. Theres nothing special about him. He's no better or worse than Baragon, who has always been decently popular. But if Baragon has never been able to attain some sort of iconic status, Varan stands no chance.

Again, this thread has run its course. Half the comments are from people who have no idea what made certain monsters iconic and the other half are from people who are basically talking to walls.

[StardustGenius]

Varan was used as a theoretical example of moving up the ranks. If that Heisei movie had been made, in place of Destoroyah, that version would be the default version folks would have gone to.

Varan in of himself is kind of just nothing. Varan The Unbelievable? It's unbelievable that this guy got a movie in the first place.

Feel free to contribute whenever you want. I'm new here!

[eabaker]

Varan in of himself is kind of just nothing.

This is what it really comes down to. Varan's movie wasn't any good because there was no sincere artistic motive behind it from anyone involved; it was from its conception just a recycling job to provide a product for a foreign TV distributor. There was never anything put into the character, there was no there there, and deciding to go back and cynically attach a metaphor pulled out of a hat in order to turn the character into something more would miss making classic Coke and end up making Diet Rite.

If a storyteller is drawn to a theme that seems to organically relate itself to Varan, then, sure, maybe they could find an avenue to a really impactful Varan movie, but even then there'd be a lot of hurtles between "in a successful movie" and iconic (a word that I don't think even applies to all of the "Big 5," honestly).

[Legion1979]

While I don't love Destroyer, I understand why he's popular. Demonic crab creature birthed from the Oxygen Destroyer that can chance shape? I totally get it. Varan? How does he even compare? Toho making Godzilla VS Varan in 1995 instead of Godzilla VS Destroyer doesn't automatically mean Varan would end up being as popular in the fandom as Destroyer is now.

[miguelnuva]

When watching American sitcoms from the 60's-80's or ones made now set in that era the few times Godzilla is mentioned it is either in context of with Kong or with Ghidorah and Mothra.

Mechagodzilla is usually mentioned in marketing because he's robot Godzilla.

The general consensus I get is that one of both of the Ghidorah films were popular during that time period and Kong and Godzilla speak for themselves. Honestly Rodan falling from the big seems more likely than a 6th member at this point.

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What the hell is with this weird American fan obsession with Varan? He's nothing. He's Godzilla, Rodan and Angilas in a blender. Theres nothing special about him. He's no better or worse than Baragon, who has always been decently popular. But if Baragon has never been able to attain some sort of iconic status, Varan stands no chance.

Again, this thread has run its course. Half the comments are from people who have no idea what made certain monsters iconic and the other half are from people who are basically talking to walls.

Varan was born in the same time frame as the first of the big 5 yet his film failed despite Toho being in their prime around his conception. He is one of the only kaiju to get a solo film besides Godzilla Mothra and Rodan yet he he failed to deliver while the other three are the Golden child. From a historical perspective Varan is going to be intreasting in just wanting to know why he was the odd one out.

As for anything else we all have that kaiju we like for strange reasons. Varan has any of these factors for him from an intreasting design, he was in DAM, he was fun to play in Godzilla unleashed or I like the unmade films he missed out on. There are even a couple of popular fan fics about him.

Somone likes him considering he just one a Bandai vinyl poll.

[Legion1979]

Yeah, quick bullet points...

1) Varan barely appears in DAM. Blink and you miss him. He's not even named. It's the only other thing he's been in since 1958.
2) Godzilla video games don't matter to anyone but hardcores. Most are terrible.
3) So he showed up in several movie ideas that weren't made. They weren't made for a reason. And nothing about that really helps the monster's case.
4) What does fan fiction have to do with anything?
5) It took almost 40 years of Bandai Godzilla toys for Varan to get a figure. Mogera, Mechanikong, Kamakiras and Titanosaurus all got figures long before he did. Meanwhile, Hedorah and Jet Jaguar are on their THIRD Bandai sculpts, What does that tell you?

Varan is a nobody to everyone except hardcore Godzilla fans who can't remove themselves from their bubbles long enough to see the bigger picture.

[StardustGenius]

While I don't love Destroyer, I understand why he's popular. Demonic crab creature birthed from the Oxygen Destroyer that can chance shape? I totally get it. Varan? How does he even compare? Toho making Godzilla VS Varan in 1995 instead of Godzilla VS Destroyer doesn't automatically mean Varan would end up being as popular in the fandom as Destroyer is now.

Well, I assume he'd have gotten some kind of redesign. They were billing him as an apocalyptic beast, so understanding how Koichi Kawakita and Shinji Nishikawa, and whoever else was invovled in designing the creatures, they would probably have redesigned him to reflect that role.

There's no way Varan sporting a 1958 looking design could possibly be taken seriously as a world ending beast. Demonic looking boss monster is the trope is they were assigning to whoever was going to be the final enemy of the Heisei series, be it Bagan, Varan, or Destoroyah.

For my money, Barubaroi would have been the coolest thing ever.

On the subject of Iconic, Hollywood is the most likely catylst as to whatever the next major iconic monster could be in the Godzilla series. For all we know the new MV movie will deal with lost civilizations and give us a revamped giga chad Megalon, instead of a Hedorah, Destoroyah, or Biollante. And that's not to say it can't happen on the Japanese side. I can't remember the last time the franchise was in a spot like this, with two divergent paths happening at once.

[miguelnuva]

Yeah, quick bullet points...

1) Varan barely appears in DAM. Blink and you miss him. He's not even named. It's the only other thing he's been in since 1958.
2) Godzilla video games don't matter to anyone but hardcores. Most are terrible.
3) So he showed up in several movie ideas that weren't made. They weren't made for a reason. And nothing about that really helps the monster's case.
4) What does fan fiction have to do with anything?
5) It took almost 40 years of Bandai Godzilla toys for Varan to get a figure. Mogera, Mechanikong, Kamakiras and Titanosaurus all got figures long before he did. Meanwhile, Hedorah and Jet Jaguar are on their THIRD Bandai sculpts, What does that tell you?

Varan is a nobody to everyone except hardcore Godzilla fans who can't remove themselves from their bubbles long enough to see the bigger picture.

You asked why people like Varan and I provided reasons. The only ones that talk about Varan are hardcore fans and movie buffs who have heard of him. No one is saying the general populace likes Varan just that's why he is intreasting to people. The same way Bagan has fans or why Stan Winston Godzilla has fans. When I saw DAM ad a kid I wanted to know who all Godzilla's friends and team where because as a kid I thought Monster island was a big hang out spot for Godzilla and his allies.

We are in a bubble where niche parts of the niche fandon will be favored. Varan not being in a lot allows people to form their own opinions on how they think he should be which is why I mentioned Godzilla unleashed, the idw comics and fanfiction. Rather it is wrong or right these can all lead to why people like Varan. As the case with Angurius the American Godzilla market made certain monsters more popular then Japan did in their market.

As for the Bandai figure it tells me enough people were thinking of him they voted to get his figure. I already knew Varan was an unknown so that fact he did get votes is a postive.

There are numerous reasons why Varan has lucked out with American fans they way he did. It's almost the same reason Behemoth has popular among hardcore fans.

[LegendZilla]

Yeah, quick bullet points...

1) Varan barely appears in DAM. Blink and you miss him. He's not even named. It's the only other thing he's been in since 1958.
2) Godzilla video games don't matter to anyone but hardcores. Most are terrible.
3) So he showed up in several movie ideas that weren't made. They weren't made for a reason. And nothing about that really helps the monster's case.
4) What does fan fiction have to do with anything?
5) It took almost 40 years of Bandai Godzilla toys for Varan to get a figure. Mogera, Mechanikong, Kamakiras and Titanosaurus all got figures long before he did. Meanwhile, Hedorah and Jet Jaguar are on their THIRD Bandai sculpts, What does that tell you?

Varan is a nobody to everyone except hardcore Godzilla fans who can't remove themselves from their bubbles long enough to see the bigger picture.

No one would've ever guessed that half the kaiju cast of GFW would come back prior to that movie's release.

[edgaguirus]

That movie was essentially a love letter to the Showa era. Plus, it made sense as it was a big anniversary.

[StardustGenius]

That movie was essentially a love letter to the Showa era. Plus, it made sense as it was a big anniversary.

Was it really though? FW seemed more like an action director who liked this kind of stuff to go ham on things first, without much thought for substance.

If someone wanted to know what a Michael Bay Godzilla movie was like, they'd have their answer in this one. Granted, imo, Shinji Higuchi as an actual director is probably closer to The Japanese Michael Bay too...

This doesn't change what we were talking about earlier, that Varan himself is just kind of nothing in the grand scheme of kaiju stardom. His last chance to be anything was in 1995, and writers went with the same tropes intended for him to a new creature. Twice! I think you are misunderstanding my mentioning of Varan. I was trying to make a point that making a new iconic, or even a memorable one, goes with a successful project, or at the very least a strong identity. If all those apocalyptic world ending/last boss monster tropes were assigned to Varan, instead of Destoroyah or Bagan, Varan's status in the Godzilla kaiju totem pole would be much higher. I was not saying Varan was a star creature.