Who Hates Heisei?

For discussion of Toho produced and distributed films or shows released from 1980 up to 1998 (includes Gamera 3)
Post Reply

What is your stance on the post-'91 Heisei Godzilla films?

I consider these films flawless masterpieces.
9
9%
I love these films.
29
28%
I like these films.
38
37%
I am neutral on these films.
15
14%
I dislike these films.
4
4%
I strongly dislike these films.
1
1%
I literally hate these films.
8
8%
I have never seen these films.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 104

User avatar
LegendZilla
Sazer
Posts: 10355
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:57 am
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by LegendZilla »

Legion1979 wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 2:14 am
LegendZilla wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 12:49 am I'd say that nitpicking the Heisei era has become something fetishized by this fandom.
You have a really bad habit of just popping up in threads and saying the most random things.
Sorry, It’s my autism talking.

User avatar
Voyager
Keizer
Posts: 7830
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:34 pm
Location: On a boat

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by Voyager »

Don’t mind me asking, but did you say that because you personally feel offended that the Heisei Era generally gets more flak on this site because it is your favourite?
Image
For Emperor and Empire!

StardustGenius
JXSDF Technician
Posts: 1090
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2022 5:24 am

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by StardustGenius »

I don't hate the Heisei movies, but I do think they fall off after vs King Ghidorah. I felt that was the last of the Heisei movies to take some kind of risks, or at the very least have creative energy within their production. There are some really cool sfx sequences that use unique angles, and scene composition.

A common complaint I've seen about the Heisei films is that they feel more like TV movies, than actual movies, and I can agree with that. It probably is the use of cinemascope in the Showa films, but again The Return of Godzilla and vs Biollante didn't use that and looked great visually. It might also be lighting or colors. Not sure. Its probably why I don't hate the Millennium films as much as others, because visually they're up to task. I still think the list of tokusatsu films from Toho's Showa era

Kawakita takes a lot of sh** from fans, but I think he was a pretty talented guy who knew what he wanted in his movies, but didn't have the time to organize them the way he wanted.

User avatar
LegendZilla
Sazer
Posts: 10355
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:57 am
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by LegendZilla »

Voyager wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 3:36 am Don’t mind me asking, but did you say that because you personally feel offended that the Heisei Era generally gets more flak on this site because it is your favourite?
I just always had a soft spot for it, partly because I remember when they were the coolest, newest films in the series.

edgaguirus
Keizer
Posts: 8563
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:25 pm

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by edgaguirus »

You grew up with them? The films you grow up with tend to be your favored ones.
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made.

The strength of the vampire is that people will not believe in him.

User avatar
LegendZilla
Sazer
Posts: 10355
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:57 am
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by LegendZilla »

It seems the general consensus is that the Heisei films were more poorly made for their time than the Showa films were for theirs.

Legion1979
Justiriser
Posts: 15857
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:45 pm

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by Legion1979 »

StardustGenius wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 7:58 am Kawakita takes a lot of sh** from fans, but I think he was a pretty talented guy who knew what he wanted in his movies, but didn't have the time to organize them the way he wanted.
If time was a factor how was Tsuburaya's crew able to produce such amazing effects between 1963 and 1967 when, in only 5 years, Toho released 11 effects films, most of them genre classics? Some of Toho's most creative films and best wireworks effects ever (the Gohtengo, adult Mothra, King Ghidjrah, Kumonga) come from that period. Kawakita only had to produce one Godzilla movie a year in the same time frame, and all of them from the same universe with the same aesthetic. Yet he couldn't better what Tsuburaya did 30 years earlier.
Last edited by Legion1979 on Wed Sep 14, 2022 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
LegendZilla
Sazer
Posts: 10355
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:57 am
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by LegendZilla »

,^You should put I to consideration that Kawakita developed a severe drinking problem between 89 and 92.

StardustGenius
JXSDF Technician
Posts: 1090
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2022 5:24 am

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by StardustGenius »

Legion1979 wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 3:50 am
StardustGenius wrote: Tue Sep 13, 2022 7:58 am Kawakita takes a lot of sh** from fans, but I think he was a pretty talented guy who knew what he wanted in his movies, but didn't have the time to organize them the way he wanted.
If time was a factor how was Tsuburaya's crew able to produce such amazing effects between 1963 and 1967 when, in only 5 years, Toho released 11 effects films, most of them genre classics? Some of Toho's most creative films and best wireworks effects ever (the Gohtengo, adult Mothra, King Ghidjrah, Kumonga) come from that period. Kawakita only had to produce one Godzilla movie a year in the same time frame, and all of them from the same universe with the same aesthetic. Yet he couldn't better what Tsuburaya did 30 years earlier.
And?

Some people are better than others when performing under pressure and time constrains, or even motivations. Kawakita is absolutely talented, and his work on Zero Pilot, Sayonara Jupiter, Zero Fighter Burns, Godzilla vs Biollante, Gunhed, and Godzilla vs King Ghidorah clearly show he is. Especially Zero Pilot, and Sayonara Jupiter. Granted the latter movie itself actually sucks... sfx films are more than just Godzilla and kaiju stuff.

But those were all projects he needed to work within his space and time to get.

I said the man was talented, not perfect, or stand up. It's clear he's phoning it in later entries.

If you wanna talk about who the best of the sfx directors were, my money's on Nakano. Submersion of Japan, Magnitude 7.9, and Prophecies Of Nostradamus have really beautiful sfx sequences.
Last edited by StardustGenius on Wed Sep 14, 2022 6:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

Legion1979
Justiriser
Posts: 15857
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:45 pm

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by Legion1979 »

LegendZilla wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:02 am ,^You should put I to consideration that Kawakita developed a severe drinking problem between 89 and 92.
I think people are way too fast to use that as an excuse to justify some of the FX failings of the Heisei series.

User avatar
LegendZilla
Sazer
Posts: 10355
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:57 am
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by LegendZilla »

Legion1979 wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:42 am
LegendZilla wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:02 am ,^You should put I to consideration that Kawakita developed a severe drinking problem between 89 and 92.
I think people are way too fast to use that as an excuse to justify some of the FX failings of the Heisei series.
Had Toho themselves been more supportive of him, things wouldn't have turned out as bad. That and maybe don't push out a new movie each year. I am not justifying, but rather giving context.

Legion1979
Justiriser
Posts: 15857
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:45 pm

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by Legion1979 »

What do you mean they didn't support him? His films had high budgets (for Japanese films anyway), got prime holiday season releases windows and were massively marketed with tie-ins, Bandai toys and all sorts of other merchandise.

I do agree that they shouldn't have been rushing these put on a yearly basis, but they were making decent money (Godzilla VS Mothra was the high grossing Godzilla movie of all time before adjusting for inflation) so I get why they kept doing it.

StardustGenius
JXSDF Technician
Posts: 1090
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2022 5:24 am

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by StardustGenius »

The guy's work clearly fell off at a point. If one looks at the entire body of his work, he clearly had some chops. His space sfx in Sayonara Jupiter were leagues ahead of whatever Tsuburaya and Nakano did back in the day, and on par with what Hollywood was capable of around the same period.

They had to be. And a lot has to be said about the lighting and cameras used for the Heisei films. Put me in the Kawakita's not bad camp. A lot of the guy's stuff is impressive.

I like the rebound he had in the 2000s with the Super Star Gods series. Lots of intuitive sequences there.
Legion1979 wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 2:11 pm What do you mean they didn't support him? His films had high budgets (for Japanese films anyway), got prime holiday season releases windows and were massively marketed with tie-ins, Bandai toys and all sorts of other merchandise.

I do agree that they shouldn't have been rushing these put on a yearly basis, but they were making decent money (Godzilla VS Mothra was the high grossing Godzilla movie of all time before adjusting for inflation) so I get why they kept doing it.
Kawakita is reported to have not wanted to have those movies produced at a yearly basis, and there were still plenty of cost cutting measures done during the Heisei films. It's been documented the reason they went with the safer, weaker looking Mechagodzilla was for budget reasons.

Kawakita's weakness was always trying to remake Tsuburaya's sequences, because he was a huge fan of those. When he stuck to things he was really good at, you could see the strength. Mechas, beams, and explosions. I think Kawakita's half of vs MGII is actually pretty strong for the most part. Oh and surprisingly, Yamato Takeru.

Legion1979
Justiriser
Posts: 15857
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:45 pm

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by Legion1979 »

I still find it hard to sympathize too much when Tsuburaya was making multiple movies a year and was still pulling off effects that astound decades later. There's no reason Kawakitas Mothra and King Ghidorah came across as bad as they did in terms of movement and wireworks when Tsuburaya nailed both in 1964.

StardustGenius
JXSDF Technician
Posts: 1090
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2022 5:24 am

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by StardustGenius »

Legion1979 wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 3:01 pm I still find it hard to sympathize too much when Tsuburaya was making multiple movies a year and was still pulling off effects that astound decades later. There's no reason Kawakitas Mothra and King Ghidorah came across as bad as they did in terms of movement and wireworks when Tsuburaya nailed both in 1964.
No one's asking to sympathize. That's your problem assuming here. I'm just giving a nuanced defense of Kawakita's legacy. I think the guy is a bit underrated, passed over when I think the guy has a pretty impressive body of work overall. He had strengths and weaknesses like everyone else. And like I've mentioned before his strengths were in mechas, explosions, and optical printing. Let's not gloss over what he was good at. Aren't you the one constantly telling folks to be nuanced in the toy section of the forums?

His strengths lend themselves better to those movies I brought up. His miniature work and action choreography was superior to Tsuburaya's in the general sci-fi and war department.
Last edited by StardustGenius on Wed Sep 14, 2022 4:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Legion1979
Justiriser
Posts: 15857
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:45 pm

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by Legion1979 »

Hard to agree that Kawakita is underrated then there are several generations of Godzilla fans think his films are some of the best ones, Godzilla VS Biollante and Godzilla VS Destroyah are two of the most popular Godzilla films in Japan and his versions of some of the monsters tend to be used by Toho as definitive versions.

And his miniature work and action choreography are better than Tsuburaya's? Are you kiddin'?
Last edited by Legion1979 on Wed Sep 14, 2022 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

StardustGenius
JXSDF Technician
Posts: 1090
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2022 5:24 am

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by StardustGenius »

Legion1979 wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 4:21 pm Hard to agree that Kawakita is underrated then there are several generations of Godzilla fans think his films are some of the best ones, Godzilla VS Biollante and Godzilla VS Destroyah are two of the most popular Godzilla films in Japan and his versions of some of the monsters tend to be used by Toho as definitive versions.

And his miniature work and action choreography are better than Tsuburaya's? Are you kiddin'?

Nope, not kidding. Sayonara Jupiter, Zero Pilot, and Zero Fighter Burns sfx work are superior to Tsuburaya's outerspace and war output. I'll even put in Gunhed too. Really nice stuff going on in that one despite the actual part from Masato Harada being abysmal.
Last edited by StardustGenius on Wed Sep 14, 2022 4:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Voyager
Keizer
Posts: 7830
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:34 pm
Location: On a boat

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by Voyager »

Kawakita’s effects being better than Tsuburaya…? Now I know something’s up.
Image
For Emperor and Empire!

StardustGenius
JXSDF Technician
Posts: 1090
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2022 5:24 am

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by StardustGenius »

Voyager wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 4:39 pm Kawakita’s effects being better than Tsuburaya…? Now I know something’s up.
Yeah I think so when it comes to general sci-fi and war stuff. The air battle between the US and Imperial Japanese in Zero Pilot is amazing. I am pretty sure he used his knowledge of plane miniatures from the Ultra series in that.

I believe he storyboarded the space stuff in Sayonara Jupiter. Fascinating stuff really. Feels almost like 2001: A Space Odyssey. At the very least it feels like something on par with what Hollywood was doing at the same time there.
Last edited by StardustGenius on Wed Sep 14, 2022 4:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
LegendZilla
Sazer
Posts: 10355
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:57 am
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by LegendZilla »

^If Toho wanted to start making Live-action films again, it should be once every 2-3 years. Aside from quality over quantity, it would respect a deceased man’s wishes.

Post Reply