Who Hates Heisei?

[Legion1979]

I find it amusing that people who have legitimate problems with the Heisei series can very intelligently explain their issues with them while the people who are aggravated by that first group have such a difficult time understanding those issues.

Because Omegamorph and darthzilla99...jeez guys...

...it's like, let the people who have issues with the Heisei films have their opinions without "No, you're a hater and whiner and your issues make no sense and I'm gonna explain why and shut up!"

The problem isn't that some people dislike the Heisei series. The REAL issue is that there's a segment of fandom who CANT DEAL WITH THAT and need to make a federal case out of it and can't let it go.

This entire thread is proof.

[Terasawa]

-think that supposedly the Heisei miniatures are less detailed than showa era miniatures and will state as fact but can never explain what details are missing in Heisei miniatures even when you show a comparison of various honda golden age showa miniature photos vs Heisei miniatures photos

It's not necessarily that details are *missing* but that they're twice as small as in the Showa-era films by simple nature of the increased scale. A miniature of a 10-meter building would have been 1/5 the size of the Godzilla costume in 1964, but in 1991, it would be 1/10 the size.

But even so, that doesn't always mean the smaller scale miniature will always have less detail. I mean if you take for example a miniature public bench that is say 3 inches by 2 inches by 1 inch, has a tiny quarter inch crack to show usage, is the 1.5 inch by 1 inch by 0.5 inch bench with 1/8th crack less detailed?

I'm not arguing that one is more or less detailed than the other, I was just explaining that the Heisei miniatures (at least those that the monster-costumed actors interacted with) were twice as small; I think when this comes up, one is often confused for the other. But no, that doesn't necessarily mean that the '90s miniatures were *less* detailed. However, I think it's altogether a moot point, as in both the 50 and 100-meter scales, details as small as in your example would be imperceptible when photographed on only a few frames of film in the movie, especially when the focal point of the shot is the monster.

But that said, the 50-meter scale technically allows for small details to be made larger and therefore more noticeable on film. But that doesn't mean that they always were. This would have impacted larger miniatures more than smaller ones.

[darthzilla99]

I find it amusing that people who have legitimate problems with the Heisei series can very intelligently explain their issues with them while the people who are aggravated by that first group have such a difficult time understanding those issues.

Because Omegamorph and darthzilla99...jeez guys...

...it's like, let the people who have issues with the Heisei films have their opinions without "No, you're a hater and whiner and your issues make no sense and I'm gonna explain why and shut up!"

The problem isn't that some people dislike the Heisei series. The REAL issue is that there's a segment of fandom who CANT DEAL WITH THAT and need to make a federal case out of it and can't let it go.

This entire thread is proof.

It's called internet debate and free speech. I have just as much right to not only disagree with a criticism but also give evidence why I think the criticism is flawed as you are entitled to think Destroyah shouldn't be in the monsterverse.

No one has a problem with people criticizing the Heisei. Having said that, said people should be prepared for their criticism to be challenged as well.

Plus you being shocked someone would dare have criticism for Sea Monster is the same thing as you accessing Heisei fanboys of not handling Heisei criticism.

[Legion1979]

Oof, your last comment...I need to sit down for a moment and figure out where to begin with that one, sport.

It's not that I'm shocked that someone "would dare" have criticism of Sea Monster. Shit, it's toward the bottom of the pile of my favorite Godzilla movies. It's not even close to being a flawless film.

My specific issue (at least it's what I think your comment alludes to) is that there's a section of the fandom that turned on the film seemingly the moment they discovered it was supposed to be a King Kong movie, as if it would have been an inherently better picture with Kong in it and Godzilla starring in it instead is enough to completely ruin it. (For the record, I'll take a couple of slightly out of character Godzilla moments over "Wet Ape Suit: The Movie".)

NO ONE had those kind of extreme sentiments until they learned that information. The fandom puts such a weird emphasis on "what could have been" that they seem to be unable to enjoy what DOES exist on its own terms.

And that's my issue when it came to Sea Monster. Absolutely nothing to do with someone "daring" to criticize it.

(Oh, and for those who thinks that's a Showa bias talking...I feel the same way about GMK. It's been over 20 years, let Varan and Angilas go and just enjoy the movie)

[Mac Daddy MM]

(For the record, I'll take a couple of slightly out of character Godzilla moments over "Wet Ape Suit: The Movie".)

This is legit the best argument I've ever seen against the proposed Kong vs. Ebirah. 100% agree, the movie would of been just as blah if it was Kong's. KKE is a much better trade off.

[Legion1979]

"Just as blah"? Definitely worse. Look at how godawful Kong looks during the short fight with the sea snake in KKE. Now image him looking like thay across multiple fights with Ebirah.

Yikes. I mean yeah, the Godzilla suit in Sea Monster looked pretty bad after so much time in the water, but that was a gradual process. The very IDEA of a movie putting Kong against an underwater opponent using suitmation is a awful.

[MechaGoji Bro7503]

I don't hate the Heisei series, I just find the latter four films to be lackluster. At times they seem a bit afraid to embrace the fun craziness of the Godzilla franchise, which is how I personally see some of the more poorly executed parts of these Heisei films.

I won't deny that the latter four each pull off sum great shots and some of the ideas do land, but the overall packages fall flat for me. Especially compared to something I find truly remarkable like Godzilla 2000 just a few years later.

Now, much like that Showa thread I just saw, if this thread spirals into needless arguments and ego-battles then it'll be shut down.

[Marciosss]

I sort of like Heisei, but not in the way than most of fandom.
A lot of people adore Mechagodzilla 2, in my opinion this is worst movie in Heisei era. The commonly hated Spacegodzilla is better in every way. Characters are better (especially Miki finally behawe as human being), fights has dynamic (enemy attacks really harm Godzilla) and overall story is more engaging.

Second worst Heisei movie is Mothra. Oh boy, they talk a lot about human harming the enviroment, but everything what happened in this movie was triggered by meteor, a clear natural force.

Destroyah, Spacegodzilla and Ghidorah are not free from minor problems, but overall quaility of film succesuffly hides it.

Godzilla'54, The Return of Godzilla and Biollante of course creates make up masterpiece Godzilla trylogy.

[Legion1979]

Don't know if Space Godzilla is better than Mechagodzilla in EVERY way. Kind of hard to argue that MG has Ifukube's best Heisei score, for one.

[Marciosss]

Well, Ifukube score don't fit in Spacegodzilla's atmosphere.

[Legion1979]

But isn't the atmosphere of a movie usually set, in large part, by the music?

For example, most would agree that part of Final Wars' identify is that clusterfuck of a score. But I've seen chunks of the movie backed by old Ifukube tracks and, damn, the movie worked so much better.

[Marciosss]

Realy? Fast 90s saban like action with slow heavy Ifukube tracks? I don't see it.
Ifukube greatly fit to Showa era, but IMHO in Heisei is sometimes better, sometimes worse.

[Legion1979]

Godzilla moves pretty quickly in several Showa Godzilla films and the music fits just fine.

Ifukube DID write some fast music too. You really believe all his stuff was slow and heavy? Movies like Mysterians and Battle in Outer Space have extremely fast action themes, for example.

[Marciosss]

I remember faster tracks, but Ifukube still sound little to archaic* for newer movies.

*
Its hard to me find better words. I'm still learning english, and prime reason for creating the account was get chance to chat with native speakers.

[JAGzilla]

I remember faster tracks, but Ifukube still sound little to archaic* for newer movies.

*
Its hard to me find better words. I'm still learning english, and prime reason for creating the account was get chance to chat with native speakers.

Archaic works fine here, assuming you're trying to say Ifikube's music sounds old-fashioned or outdated. Archaic could sound a little bit extreme, I suppose, but it definitely does the job.

Welcome, by the way! What is your native language?

[darthzilla99]

Godzilla moves pretty quickly in several Showa Godzilla films and the music fits just fine.

Ifukube DID write some fast music too. You really believe all his stuff was slow and heavy? Movies like Mysterians and Battle in Outer Space have extremely fast action themes, for example.

To be fair, Ifukube himself turned down working on Godzilla vs. Space Godzilla because he felt his style of music didn't fit the script (now whether that's a sign of the script's poor writing is up for debate).

[Mac Daddy MM]

Godzilla moves pretty quickly in several Showa Godzilla films and the music fits just fine.

Ifukube DID write some fast music too. You really believe all his stuff was slow and heavy? Movies like Mysterians and Battle in Outer Space have extremely fast action themes, for example.

To be fair, Ifukube himself turned down working on Godzilla vs. Space Godzilla because he felt his style of music didn't fit the script (now whether that's a sign of the script's poor writing is up for debate).

I thought it was reported he declined it because he thought the idea of a SpaceGodzilla was too stupid, even by Godzilla enemy standards.

[darthzilla99]

Godzilla moves pretty quickly in several Showa Godzilla films and the music fits just fine.

Ifukube DID write some fast music too. You really believe all his stuff was slow and heavy? Movies like Mysterians and Battle in Outer Space have extremely fast action themes, for example.

To be fair, Ifukube himself turned down working on Godzilla vs. Space Godzilla because he felt his style of music didn't fit the script (now whether that's a sign of the script's poor writing is up for debate).

I thought it was reported he declined it because he thought the idea of a SpaceGodzilla was too stupid, even by Godzilla enemy standards.

Maybe it's both. The two reasons aren't mutually exclusive.

[Terasawa]

I decided not to score GODZILLA VS. SPACE GODZILLA (1994) when I read the script for the film. The atmosphere was very different.

...

When I read the script for GODZILLA VS. SPACE GODZILLA, it reminded me of teenage idol films. In addition, the movie was going to have rap music in it. So, I thought, "Well, this is not my world, so I better not score this one."

Ifukube, interviewed by David Milner in 1995, at the latter's site (archived).

[Legion1979]

Rap music, huh? So the movie could have been worse??

I still believe theres no way Ifukube's involvement could have been a detriment to the movie.