Talkback Thread #5: Ghidorah, the Three Headed Monster(1964)

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godjacob
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Re: Talkback Thread #5: Ghidorah, the Three Headed Monster(1964)

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miguelnuva wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 3:05 am
edgaguirus wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 10:57 pm In addition, Godzilla is usually not under mind control of some sort.

However, Ghidorah is no less a threat when being used as a tool of conquest. He causes just as much destruction whether free or being controlled and doesn't retreat when under control.
Ghidorah was only mind controlled 1 more time than Godzilla yet a lot of fans hold that against Ghidorah was my only point.
Cause Godzilla's entire existence wasn't defined by being mind controlled. Showa Ghidorah had one appearance where it actually was allowed to do things on its own. The rest he was passed around various alien races to be their tool of conquest like an alien blunt. Godzilla meanwhile had many appearances where it was allowed to act with its own agency. Which does sort of soften the image of this planet destroying terror it was initially hyped to be.
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Re: Talkback Thread #5: Ghidorah, the Three Headed Monster(1964)

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Ghidorah being a weapon of alien races is really just more of a product of the series moving further towards science-fiction than when it started out. Monster Zero really kick-started the jump into the realm of aliens and spaceships, and Honda's next Godzilla movie, Destroy All Monsters embraced those concepts further. And then DAM proved to be so successful that it's little wonder that aliens started popping up all over the place in later films: Vs. Gigan, Vs. Megalon, Vs. Mechagodzilla, ToMG, and Space Amoeba if you want to include that last one, all used their monsters as living weapons of the true alien villains. That's not really Ghidorah's fault, nor does it speak ill of the character, it's just a shift in genre tropes for the series.
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Re: Talkback Thread #5: Ghidorah, the Three Headed Monster(1964)

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Spuro wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:07 am Ghidorah being a weapon of alien races is really just more of a product of the series moving further towards science-fiction than when it started out. Monster Zero really kick-started the jump into the realm of aliens and spaceships, and Honda's next Godzilla movie, Destroy All Monsters embraced those concepts further. And then DAM proved to be so successful that it's little wonder that aliens started popping up all over the place in later films: Vs. Gigan, Vs. Megalon, Vs. Mechagodzilla, ToMG, and Space Amoeba if you want to include that last one, all used their monsters as living weapons of the true alien villains. That's not really Ghidorah's fault, nor does it speak ill of the character, it's just a shift in genre tropes for the series.
I think the issue is more Ghidorah being set up as initially something different than the dime a dozen Showa alien Kaiju weapons; a planet destroying terror of its own malicious agency. Only for that side to never be seen again in the series, instead being the ultimate brain washed pawn by practically every alien race under the sun. Just makes the initial hype deflating is all.
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Re: Talkback Thread #5: Ghidorah, the Three Headed Monster(1964)

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godjacob wrote: Tue Dec 07, 2021 12:06 pm I think the issue is more Ghidorah being set up as initially something different than the dime a dozen Showa alien Kaiju weapons; a planet destroying terror of its own malicious agency. Only for that side to never be seen again in the series, instead being the ultimate brain washed pawn by practically every alien race under the sun. Just makes the initial hype deflating is all.
But remember, the dime a dozen Showa era Kaiju weapons only came after Ghidorah was introduced. And in two out of three of those films, EVERYONE is an alien Kaiju weapon. Or a human Kaiju weapon, in the case of DAM's climax. The Earth monsters didn't even get to fight Ghidorah under their own violation, the Killaks only broke the control humans had over them after Ghidorah's defeat.

The only movie where he's a pawn while Godzilla remains free from the very same alien mind control is Godzilla vs Gigan.
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Re: Talkback Thread #5: Ghidorah, the Three Headed Monster(1964)

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You can argue that this is the first Godzilla film which borrows heavy influence from James Bond. Based on later entries that did, no one really made a big deal out of it, but when Toho tried to capitalize on other franchises by “borrowing” ideas, it mostly drew ire each time.

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Re: Talkback Thread #5: Ghidorah, the Three Headed Monster(1964)

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LegendZilla wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:00 pm You can argue that this is the first Godzilla film which borrows heavy influence from James Bond. Based on later entries that did, no one really made a big deal out of it, but when Toho tried to capitalize on other franchises by “borrowing” ideas, it mostly drew ire each time.
As usual, it's all in the execution. Toho took the popularity of the James Bond franchise and made a few vaguely similar movies, weaving basic elements of secret agent thrillers organically into them. They took influence*, rather than just stealing wholesale. It's all relatively subtle and tastefully done. Taking an entire Indiana Jones temple sequence and awkwardly plopping it down in a movie otherwise set in contemporary Japan, that's not subtle. M-11 being a blatant Terminator knockoff wasn't subtle, and worse, it was terrible , so hilariously poorly done that it takes the viewer out of the movie. There are cases like that in the Showa films, too, instances where Tsuburaya used effects he knew were bad just for the fun of it. The difference was that the Showa movies rolled with the goofy fun approach from the ground up, whereas the Heisei movies wanted to be serious and mature, leaving the cheesy moments sticking out like sore thumbs.

* If anyone takes this as an invitation to go "B-b-b-but when the Monsterverse takes influence from the MCU-", no. The key difference is that Toho made use of James Bond stuff a handful of times, interspersed with other types of movies. Every major studio in Japan didn't simultaneously go "Okay, boys, it's all Bond flicks from here on in!", and uncaringly drag their most beloved franchises into the mud in the name of chasing the almighty dollar.
Last edited by JAGzilla on Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Talkback Thread #5: Ghidorah, the Three Headed Monster(1964)

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JAGzilla wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:27 am
LegendZilla wrote: Tue Aug 09, 2022 11:00 pm You can argue that this is the first Godzilla film which borrows heavy influence from James Bond. Based on later entries that did, no one really made a big deal out of it, but when Toho tried to capitalize on other franchises by “borrowing” ideas, it mostly drew ire each time.
As usual, it's all in the execution. Toho took the popularity of the James Bond franchise and made a few vaguely similar movies, weaving basic elements of secret agent thrillers organically into them. They took influence*, rather than just stealing wholesale. It's all relatively subtle and tastefully done. Taking an entire Indiana Jones temple sequence and awkwardly plopping it down in a movie otherwise set in contemporary Japan, that's not subtle. M-11 being a blatant Terminator knockoff wasn't subtle, and worse, it was terrible , so hilariously poorly done that it takes the viewer out of the movie. There are cases like that in the Showa films, too, instances where Tsuburaya used effects he knew were bad just for the fun of it. The difference was that the Showa movies rolled with the goofy fun approach from the ground up, whereas the Heisei movies wanted to be serious and mature, leaving the cheesy moments sticking out like sore thumbs.

* If anyone takes this as an invitation to go "B-b-b-but when the Monsterverse takes influence from the MCU-", no. The key difference is that Toho made use of James Bond stuff a handful of times, interspersed with other types of movies. Every major studio in Japan didn't simultaneously go "Okay, boys, it's all Bond flicks from here on in!", and uncaringly drag their most beloved franchises into the mud in the name of chasing the almighty dollar.
Is it possible for the franchise to take “influence” from other popular films as you put it and make it work? If so, what sources do you think could work and how would you do it?

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Re: Talkback Thread #5: Ghidorah, the Three Headed Monster(1964)

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LegendZilla wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:06 am Is it possible for the franchise to take “influence” from other popular films as you put it and make it work? If so, what sources do you think could work and how would you do it?
Of course it's possible. As I just said, I feel like it made the James Bond influence work. And while I'm drawing a blank, I'm sure our resident genre scholars could write you a book's worth of other examples.

I don't have any specific ideas, off the top of my head. I'd have to think about it.
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Re: Talkback Thread #5: Ghidorah, the Three Headed Monster(1964)

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I skreonking LOVE Ghidrah's first appearance, manifesting itself as a striking meteor. Forever embedded in my mind
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miguelnuva wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2024 5:47 pm With this being an Oscar for best visual effects you can also joke and say Godzilla really did win the oscar.

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Re: Talkback Thread #5: Ghidorah, the Three Headed Monster(1964)

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This movie draws far more from Roman Holiday than it does any of the then-extant 007 movies. And because it's responsible for this movie's great pathos (and therefore the fantastic penultimate scene), I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
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Re: Talkback Thread #5: Ghidorah, the Three Headed Monster(1964)

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Terasawa wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:35 am This movie draws far more from Roman Holiday than it does any of the then-extant 007 movies. And because it's responsible for this movie's great pathos (and therefore the fantastic penultimate scene), I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
BigactionBill on YouTube mentioned that comparison as well between Ghidorah and Roman Holiday. I agree it takes more from that then 007.
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Re: Talkback Thread #5: Ghidorah, the Three Headed Monster(1964)

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There are people who watch this movie and think of 007?

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Re: Talkback Thread #5: Ghidorah, the Three Headed Monster(1964)

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Legion1979 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:37 am There are people who watch this movie and think of 007?
I mean, the human plot is essentially a spy thriller/assassination plot so I can see the argument.
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Re: Talkback Thread #5: Ghidorah, the Three Headed Monster(1964)

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There's political intrigue, but there's nothing about it specifically reminiscent of the 007 movies. I don't think there's anything about it that constitutes the "heavy influence" LZ argues; I think it's also markedly different than later Godzilla movies that had copycat scenes (although this doesn't bother me that much, especially when they're clearly intended as homages).
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Re: Talkback Thread #5: Ghidorah, the Three Headed Monster(1964)

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The Bond movies kicked off a trend of spy/action movies, which spread to Toho, and in turn informed aspects of this movie, but the result is certainly not anything particularly 007-specific in GtTHM.
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Re: Talkback Thread #5: Ghidorah, the Three Headed Monster(1964)

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Legion1979 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 11:37 am There are people who watch this movie and think of 007?
I mean, Akkiko Wakabayashi (Salno) was a Bond Girl, so I'm sure 007 will cross the minds of many watching it...

But while there are some definite espionage plot elements more than likely influenced by the genre, LegendZilla's post seems to imply the elements are as heavily lifted as blatantly-borrowed/stolen ideas in latter installments (namely the popular American movie tropes typically recycled in the Heisei series), which just isn't the case. It just strikes me as him trying to pull a "gotcha" to prove Showa fans' "bias" or whatever.
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Re: Talkback Thread #5: Ghidorah, the Three Headed Monster(1964)

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^I wonder how Toho resisted the urge to have their Godzilla films shamelessly imitate Hollywood franchises beat for beat in the Showa era, yet in the Heisei, they gave into it.
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Re: Talkback Thread #5: Ghidorah, the Three Headed Monster(1964)

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I wasn't trying to imply latter Showa films were immune, mind you. Sea Monster is inarguably a lot more blatantly Bond-influenced, with the Red Bamboo being a pretty clear take on SPECTRE (both of their Number 2s even have eyepatches). And how can we forget the Black Hole aliens being obvious Planet of the Apes knock-offs? But those two examples are admittedly more aesthetic similarities as opposed to outright borrowing scenes beat-for-beat like a lot of the Heisei (or like...all of Final Wars) examples.
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Re: Talkback Thread #5: Ghidorah, the Three Headed Monster(1964)

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LegendZilla wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:48 pm ^I wonder how Toho resisted the urge to have their Godzilla films shamelessly imitate Hollywood franchises beat for beat in the Showa era, yet in the Heisei, they gave into it.
Because "Toho" isnt a person. It's a studio staffed with producers, writers, directors and special effects artists who have been making films for almost a century. And all of them are going to have different ideas and influences depending on the time frame.

There's a big difference between company men like Honda or Sekizawa who (while no doubt familiar with American movies) were making very Japanese films during a time where American blockbusters weren't worldwide touchstones...and a guy like Kazuki Omori, who LOVED American films and wrote material ripping off Terminator and Indiana Jones into Godzilla vs King Ghidorah and Godzilla vs Mothra respectively. And that's not even getting into Kitamura's contributions a decade later, where he was more interested in copying American films and getting himself into the international market than making a good Godzilla movie.

Times change, people change and influences change.

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Re: Talkback Thread #5: Ghidorah, the Three Headed Monster(1964)

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LegendZilla wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 1:48 pm ^I wonder how Toho resisted the urge to have their Godzilla films shamelessly imitate Hollywood franchises beat for beat in the Showa era, yet in the Heisei, they gave into it.
King Kong and The Beast from 20,000 Fathoms; Them! (less directly); et al...

Legion's right that the people who most directly contributed to the creative side of production are the most obvious difference, but I don't share his assertion that Omori consistently "ripped off" Hollywood movies. I think that was his way of paying homage to the movies he liked.

Getting off on a tangent here, but LSD made a compelling argument some time ago that the infamous M-11 chase sequence in Godzilla vs King Ghidorah is just one of many references and tributes to sci-fi films in that movie. It's not only a riff on The Terminator but possibly on Tetsuo as well. There are also obvious references to past Toho sci-fi movies as well as Omori's usual references to Hollywood (Major Spielberg; "Make my day!"). There's even tongue-in-cheek dialogue in the script where Glenchiko says time travel doesn't work the way it does in movies -- hell, the protagonist is a science fiction writer by profession, so I think Omori's intentions in that film specifically have been misunderstood by a lot of G-fans.
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