Talkback: Frankenstein vs. Baragon (1965)

[Tohosaurus]

For some reason, in spite of the random elements within the film it somehow works for me and makes for an enjoyable film. The sequel was far better IMO and is actually one of the best kaiju films, but this too stands as a unique entry in the genre and has a unique sense of eerie and emotion.

[DoctorMafune]

The octopus is random, but it does create a link to WoTG.

Yeah, I always liked that.

WotG has fractured continuity with FCTW, at best, but it's somehow still fascinating. Gaira giving Hell to the octopus as a kind of revenge (for a version of its progenitor's fate that most people hadn't seen) is a good example.

Years ago, I read in an English language book summarizing the earlier story treatments for WotG, that at one point, not only was Sanda was supposed to be the Frankenstein giant, further "mutated" to survive in the Japan Alps, but Gaira was what regrew from the severed hand, washed out to sea.

Now that would have been cool.

[Toxic Toast]

From the wordless laboratory scene to the fateful atomic bomb attack, the movie has a very strong opening. Unfortunately, I think it goes way downhill after that, and doesn't pick up again until the fight with Baragon.

[ThunderScore]

[Space Hunter M]

When the hell is Toho Video pressing this on BD? I assume next year to cash-in on the 2016 film, but the theatrical sinkhole ending has been ready to go in HD since last year.

[BARAGONZILLA]

I hate the ending and I always will.
I yelled at TV. I kept yelling "C'mon Baragon! Fight! Kill him!" but I guess he didn't here me.

[Pkmatrix]

I actually prefer FCTW over War of the Gargantuas, although both are great.

I own the Tokyo Shock DVD of this movie (which I may rewatch today, actually), but I've heard that that DVD's US Cut isn't the actual US cut? What's the difference between the Tokyo Shock version and the actual US cut? Is the US Cut available somewhere overseas that I can import?

If I recall, the American version of the film is supposed to have some extra footage making Frankenstein out to be a more violent and vicious character than in the original, right?

[godzillalives88]

I actually prefer FCTW over War of the Gargantuas, although both are great.

Same, I like the "body horror" element of FCTW more, and the creepy atmosphere that permeates throughout. It's also one of a handful of Toho films where we get to see a giant humanoid creature interact with a giant kaiju.

[Terasawa]

I own the Tokyo Shock DVD of this movie (which I may rewatch today, actually), but I've heard that that DVD's US Cut isn't the actual US cut? What's the difference between the Tokyo Shock version and the actual US cut?

Tokyo Shock's "US version" is based on the 2000s Monsters HD scan which itself was far from perfect. In fact, no English version has been complete since Henry Saperstein regained control of the movie from AIP in the early 1980s.

From the Toho Kingdom DVD review:

To put it plainly: although AIP's original opening titles are included, the rest of the video track is actually just the Japanese cut already found on this set with the dubbed track overlapped. This causes problems with the scenes where the US version had different or additional footage, as the music in these sequences skips while the audio is jumbled around to match the onscreen Japanese cut. Thankfully, these moments are so few that it doesn't detract much from the overall experience. Unfortunately, new onscreen English title sequences were also created for this version, such as here, with less than stellar results.

The original AIP release contained footage not seen in the Japanese version. Saperstein or AIP requested several shots of a more violent Frankenstein. In the new footage, Frankenstein stomps on a soldier when he breaks out of the hospital. Another new scene has Frankenstein intentionally wreck the police car outside Sueko's apartment. These scenes are included as a bonus feature on the Tokyo Shock release, but only in fullscreen from the '80s UPA master.

AIP also replaced all Japanese text with these ugly banners. Tokyo Shock recreated most of these. The few that were missing in the Monsters HD version are also missing in Tokyo Shock's, including this entire montage. This headline, which replaced a Japanese one in Toho's version, is also missing in the Tokyo Shock reconstruction.

Tokyo Shock's English soundtrack isn't complete either. Again, this is a problem inherent in both UPA scans. For example:

AIP - "He's eaten the cow!"
Tokyo Shock - "He's eaten the-"

AIP - "He's growing larger and larger. Is it the radioactivity?"
Tokyo Shock - "-growing larger and larger. Is it the radioactivity?"

And when the audio is complete, it rarely seems to be in sync with the video.

Overall the Tokyo Shock reconstruction is disappointing, but I think they did the best they could with what they had to work with.

Is the US Cut available somewhere overseas that I can import?

No. There's an out of print German DVD that has the violent Franky scenes in Tohoscope. I don't believe that release has any English options (subtitles or audio), but it's a lot closer to the original AIP release than the Tokyo Shock version.

[Kaijugriffey]

I own the Tokyo Shock DVD of this movie (which I may rewatch today, actually), but I've heard that that DVD's US Cut isn't the actual US cut? What's the difference between the Tokyo Shock version and the actual US cut?

Tokyo Shock's "US version" is based on the 2000s Monsters HD scan which itself was far from perfect. In fact, no English version has been complete since Henry Saperstein regained control of the movie from AIP in the early 1980s.

From the Toho Kingdom DVD review:

To put it plainly: although AIP's original opening titles are included, the rest of the video track is actually just the Japanese cut already found on this set with the dubbed track overlapped. This causes problems with the scenes where the US version had different or additional footage, as the music in these sequences skips while the audio is jumbled around to match the onscreen Japanese cut. Thankfully, these moments are so few that it doesn't detract much from the overall experience. Unfortunately, new onscreen English title sequences were also created for this version, such as here, with less than stellar results.

The original AIP release contained footage not seen in the Japanese version. Saperstein or AIP requested several shots of a more violent Frankenstein. In the new footage, Frankenstein stomps on a soldier when he breaks out of the hospital. Another new scene has Frankenstein intentionally wreck the police car outside Sueko's apartment. These scenes are included as a bonus feature on the Tokyo Shock release, but only in fullscreen from the '80s UPA master.

AIP also replaced all Japanese text with these ugly banners. Tokyo Shock recreated most of these. The few that were missing in the Monsters HD version are also missing in Tokyo Shock's, including this entire montage. This headline, which replaced a Japanese one in Toho's version, is also missing in the Tokyo Shock reconstruction.

Tokyo Shock's English soundtrack isn't complete either. Again, this is a problem inherent in both UPA scans. For example:

AIP - "He's eaten the cow!"
Tokyo Shock - "He's eaten the-"

AIP - "He's growing larger and larger. Is it the radioactivity?"
Tokyo Shock - "-growing larger and larger. Is it the radioactivity?"

And when the audio is complete, it rarely seems to be in sync with the video.

Overall the Tokyo Shock reconstruction is disappointing, but I think they did the best they could with what they had to work with.

Is the US Cut available somewhere overseas that I can import?

No. There's an out of print German DVD that has the violent Franky scenes in Tohoscope. I don't believe that release has any English options (subtitles or audio), but it's a lot closer to the original AIP release than the Tokyo Shock version.

Wow! I never realized that Frankenstein stomping on the guy was a US only scene. It was the one bit that I always remembered from this movie growing up. I hope they do do a nice and complete BluRay release soon. I have not seen this one in many years, but remember it fondly. Such a dark chilling opening with the heart.

[Captain Aktion]

Probably my favorite Ifukube score.

[Godzillian]

Probably my favorite Ifukube score.

Yeah this film is easily one of his best

[gigan72]

I actually prefer FCTW over War of the Gargantuas, although both are great.

Ditto. I love them both, but I like this one better.

I own the Tokyo Shock DVD of this movie (which I may rewatch today, actually), but I've heard that that DVD's US Cut isn't the actual US cut? What's the difference between the Tokyo Shock version and the actual US cut? Is the US Cut available somewhere overseas that I can import?

If I recall, the American version of the film is supposed to have some extra footage making Frankenstein out to be a more violent and vicious character than in the original, right?

I own a bootleg DVD of the film which is the actual US version, though you should take note that if all you want to see is the additional scenes they are included as a bonus on the Tokyo Shock DVD set.

If anybody wants to know where I got it, PM me. It has a couple neat features that also aren't on the Media Blasters DVD, and it includes a disc that is basically the exact same as the first disc included on the MB set for those who don't have it.

[Piccolo]

This is a very good kaiju film. The plot point about the Germans sending Frankenstein's heart to Japan at the end of World War II is pretty novel, and the Frankenstein monster is sympathetic, something you don't often get in kaiju films. The movie also introduced Baragon, one of Toho's more appealing monster creations.

[Rodan]

I watched this today for maybe the second or third time ever.

I now think it's Toho's strongest giant-monster output of the '60s next to only Mothra vs. Godzilla (which it almost plays like a dark reflection of) and maybe King Kong vs. Godzilla. Honda and crew take what would have been an inane B-movie script in the West and imbue it with so much sentiment and art. Its treatment of the Hiroshima aftermath is intensely political and humanist, and provides and undercurrent for the entire film. There are shots of daily life that are quietly sentimental (Dr. Bowen and Togami visiting their former patient's grave and surrounding temples). The characters are likable and flawed and all-around better drawn than in most of these movies. (This is a trio as strong, if not stronger, than those of Mothra vs. and Ghidorah, the Three-Headed Monster). It's a decidedly more down-to-Earth fantasy world than those of Honda's '60s Godzilla films as well. Sets are intentionally drab and realistic, from underfunded research centers to police headquarters in old buildings. The characters comment that they're running out of money to stay in hotels and hire helicopters. When an agreeable former soldier takes his theory on Baragon to newspapers and scientists, no one will believe him.

Of course the fantasy aspects do still come, and like in all of Toho's '60s monster flicks, there's a pleasure to the light they cast on the other issues the film wants to tackle.

This is one of the best. Personally, to draw a bit firmer of a stance than at the beginning of this post, I think it's the best Showa era monster film outside Godzilla and Mothra vs. Godzilla, though I may find others more fun. Only the mercilessly abrupt ending lets it down. I don't care about who wins the monster fight (though Baragon makes a perfectly fine villain); I care about everything else going on.

I also think it's way better than War of the Gargantuas. That still feels to me like a movie no one's heart was in.

[eabaker]

IMothra vs. Godzilla (which it almost plays like a dark reflection of)

Please, please expand on this.

I also think it's way better than War of the Gargantuas. That still feels to me like a movie no one's heart was in.

Except maybe Haruo Nakajima. He seems to have invested a lot in his performance as Gaira.

I would proba bly classify Frankenstein Conquers the World as Takashi Kimura's best kaiju script, and stands alongside Matango as one of his best collaborations with Honda. And while both FctW and WoG have the same basic, "And then the Earth swallows both monsters, the end" resolution, it works a lot better for me in the earlier film because Frankenstein's sacrifice feels genuinely tragic, where Sanda's apparent death has very little resonance.

[Rodan]

IMothra vs. Godzilla (which it almost plays like a dark reflection of)

Please, please expand on this.

They have similar aesthetics and cast structures (although you could argue those are shared with other Honda monster movies in the '60s), but they also share some thematic and structural elements.

They're both ultimately hopeful movies about coming together, globally, in the aftermath of World War II and atomic weapons, but Frankenstein plays like a bleak inversion of Mothra in a lot of ways.

In Mothra (which I'll just use for the 1964 entry here rather than the '61 original) the aftermath of radiation is given the fantasy setting of Infant Island, and, less emphasized, embodiment in the villainous Godzilla. In Frankenstein, it's thrust upon us in the most down-to-Earth way, nearly right from the start, witnessing the actual explosion at Hiroshima and seeing the effects on children more than a decade later. The first patient we're introduced to dies shortly into the film. It's what has brought humanitarian Dr. Bowen to Japan, and it's his presence that gives the film this global humanist sentiment Mothra similarly saw fit to explore through the appeal at Infant Island. Still hopeful, but everything's a little more grim, a little more "real" here (thought it never pretends it's not going to escalate into a monster film).

In Mothra, the characters are forced to make appeals to a savior monster that are continuously turned down due to distrust of mankind. In Frankenstein, the savior monster helps mankind despite widespread mistrust, and the appeal its main trio must make is instead to the public to preserve him (though even they waffle on the practicality of that notion throughout, which all feels real).

That second part might just align with more of a standard formula for monster movies, but with its thematic undercurrents and similarities to other Toho entries of the era, it really does feel like a subversion of the approach used in Mothra, even though, and because, they tread a lot of the same ground.

And then you have other little inversions -- in Mothra, the press is a force for good and is widely believed, thwarted only by the continued promotion of Kumiyama and Torahata (and even then, public reception seems to be against them by the time Godzilla arrives). In the comparatively more cynical approach to daily life Frankenstein takes, characters are game to press on, but the press is not an ally, nor is the public. Good people and hope exist, but they are not the norm to be contrasted against larger-than-life villains like Kumiyama and Torahata. Instead, we simply have to hope there are enough of them to stem the tide against indifference.

There are also the superficial similarities/differences mentioned above -- a similar style of cinematography applied to much drabber sets and outdoor settings (I think, intentionally; I don't meant to say they look cheap). A similar trio for our central cast, though the Frankenstein crew is comparatively a little more doubtful and flawed. Kimura adds the real-world issues of running out of funds and having to return to work that Sekizawa would never add to his more colorful films.

They tread the same thematic ground and are both hopeful movies, but in one the world is basically good, and in the other that notion is a little more suspect.

This is all a little half-formed right now. I just watched it earlier today, but I'd watched Mothra not long ago and it was still really fresh in my mind. I couldn't help but compare them.

Except maybe Haruo Nakajima. He seems to have invested a lot in his performance as Gaira.

That's true. Nakajima never gives less than his all. I think. I guess it's a little hard to tell in some of his suits.

EDIT --

Or, it's like someone took the following bullet points and gave them to Sekizawa and Kimura at the same time:

• Likable male-male-female trio
• Strong anti-nuclear, pro-global humanism themes
• One good monster and one bad monster
• Public perception plays a major role

And these were the two movies they came up with, with Honda's style and their close release dates linking them together.

[GodzillaFanatic2001]

Saperstein or AIP requested several shots of a more violent Frankenstein. In the new footage, Frankenstein stomps on a soldier when he breaks out of the hospital

Concerning this: I've never really seen it as him stomping on the soldier per say. It more looks like he stares at him, then just walks right by without touching him.

Does anyone know why is the UPA cut of this film, and all subsequent versions, are so horribly messed up? It seems that the UPA cut simply butchered parts of the film, but for what purpose. Why not simply add your title credits and leave it at that?

[ZeppandonConfirmed]

When I rewatched this film again a few days ago, I forgot how great the film was!
I love how they portrayed the whole "Humans are the true monsters for making these creatures" idea. In most Godzilla films, they either only mention it near the end, or with the case of Godzilla vs SpaceGodzilla where one character keeps on mentioning the whole "Godzilla is not an awful creature" and it gets annoying real quick in my opinion. Here, they show it. Frankenstein has no intentions of killing humans, the ones he did kil were only people who were aggravating him. All Frankenstein wanted is the protein from animals to stay alive. But people wanted him dead because he was a threat to humanity. And once he saved the village from Baragon and got dragged into the ocean by the octopus (that does admittedly come out of nowhere in the international release) the only characters who seemed to actually care were the three leads. The other characters just either left or just stayed. I really liked how they did that.
The score is also great! One of my favorites from Ifukube, as it is very memorable and really good. The three leads, Dr. Bowen, Dr. Kawaji, and Dr. Togami, were great characters and had lots of purpose throughout and good development. The other characters were good, but the three main characters were the best. Frankenstein was also great, I really liked his design and you were rooting for him in the end because he was a likable protagonist monster in my opinion. Baragon is awesome. One of my Top 5 favorite Kaiju! He looks cool and I liked his fight with Frankenstein in the end. Although, he and the octopus did come out of nowhere, which was kinda dumb. And there were things I wish they did better in terms of scene effects, but I still really like the effects and sets for this film. Really well done for a film made in 65!
But yeah, I really like this film. I might actually watch it again tonight! It's a really good film in my opinion!

[Lain Of The Wired]

How'd the little boy manage to get Frankensteins heart in his chest?