What made you huh?

[LSD Jellyfish]

^Yes.

Simultaneously, I do question why people feel the need to rush to defend the super rich. The other side of this equation is people rushing to defend Chapelle. Like, the dude is rich, and is clearly allowed to say whatever he wants. Chapelle can defend himself and it's astounding to me that he'll most likely play the victim card ("I can't say what I want anymore, I'm being censored!"). All of this can be interpreted as a self-gratifying controversy wherein Chapelle is raising and generating controversy (and attention) surrounding himself in order to make more money and whatnot.

I never take a comedian serious and if someone does it's pretty stupid.

Good on you, but unfortunately not everyone is as woke as you.

[goji89]

Good on you, but unfortunately not everyone is as woke as you.

I've been called many things in my life but this by far is the most F'ed up.

bravo man.

[Rando Yaguchi]

All of this can be interpreted as a self-gratifying controversy wherein Chapelle is raising and generating controversy (and attention) surrounding himself in order to make more money and whatnot.

It could just be what he genuinely believes, or he's just grifting...or both? It's hard to tell sometimes.

That's the problem here. That Trans people make it seem that people will watch this show and get into their trucks with a Confederate flag while playing a Hank Williams song going out and just beating Trans folks like piñatas.

I never take a comedian serious and if someone does it's pretty stupid.

I have my own opinions formed by my own beliefs and know what I want to say. See, I don't owe anyone anything doesn't mean I'm gonna go outta my way to harass or beat on someone trying to live their life. Don't force it upon people all you'll get is pushed back and nothing will change.

You're on the right track, but there's too many whackos out there. With this in mind, public figures have a responsibility - which often comes into confrontation with free speech and censorship issues. It's some complicated shit.

[goji89]

I think it's a bit of both.

[Terasawa]

That's the problem here. That Trans people make it seem that people will watch this show and get into their trucks with a Confederate flag while playing a Hank Williams song going out and just beating Trans folks like piñatas.

I never take a comedian serious and if someone does it's pretty stupid.

I have my own opinions formed by my own beliefs and know what I want to say. See, I don't owe anyone anything doesn't mean I'm gonna go outta my way to harass or beat on someone trying to live their life. Don't force it upon people all you'll get is pushed back and nothing will change.

That's the problem here. That people who transphobia doesn't remotely directly effect, and who already have supported (in this thread) transphobic beliefs under the false flags of "science" and "facts," are incapable of seeing the magnitude of a popular public figure furthering those wrong beliefs.

You say you're not going to go out of your way to harass someone, but there are people who will and who already have. Or are you ignoring transphobia?

[Rando Yaguchi]

So what's the truth behind the science of gender, Terasawa? Are trans women actual women, and if so, why is there a distinction between the two even in trans communities? I've never heard it explained properly.

[goji89]

Or are you ignoring transphobia?

Sexism, Heterosexism, Homophobia, Transphobia, prejudice, stereotyping, discrimination, ageism, classism, xenophobia.... ignoring what exactly? Do you know how many people right now are experiencing something like this? What makes Transphobia that much more important than other people experiencing hate? Is it because now it's that much more prevalent in this day and age. Now, I am NOT ignoring it's existence it's more in the news now because it's the flavor of the month so to speak.

I'm saying why is this comedy special about Trans pushed to the front of every other issue? Because some popular comedian said a few things?

Does it suck for this community to experience hate Hell yeah it sucks. Everybody experiences hate, even white people are experiencing hate. Now yelling about what some comedian said is not something to get offended by. Nothing serious has happened (Thankfully) over his special aside from offending some people.

Offending someone is not s crime.

[eabaker]

So what's the truth behind the science of gender, Terasawa? Are trans women actual women, and if so, why is there a distinction between the two even in trans communities? I've never heard it explained properly.

"The science of gender" is an interesting phrase. There is definitively a science of sex - male, female, and various forms of intersexual intersection can be analyzed in anatomical, hormonal, and chromosomal terms (although one could still debate exactly "how female" one needs to "be female," or "how male" one needs to "be male").

Gender, on the other hand, is a product of biological sex, sexual orientation and cultural mores; as such its definitions are more variable and more fluid.

Added in 8 minutes 3 seconds:

I'm saying why is this comedy special about Trans pushed to the front of every other issue? Because some popular comedian said a few things?

I don't see that it is being pushed to the front of every other issue. For every article I've seen written on the subject, I've seen more written about the latest twists and turns in abortion laws, about conflicts within the Democratic party, about Trump's latest activities, about labor relations, and so on and so on. Outlets that are geared towards entertainment news, LGBTQ or trans audiences, or reactionary audiences likely to have a negative response to LGBTQ and trans issues, they're focusing a fair amount on it. This is not something the entire country is fixated on.

Offending someone is not s crime.

No, but it is an opportunity to meditate on why what one said or did might have been offensive, and what its impact might be.

[LSD Jellyfish]

I'm saying why is this comedy special about Trans pushed to the front of every other issue? Because some popular comedian said a few things?

Precisely because a popular comedian said it, and it was promoted by one of the most popular streaming platforms, and subsequently a Netflix higher up doubled down. It’s almost like when things happen in mainstream culture, people have opinions and react.

Offending someone is not s crime.

I agree, and I don’t think anyone (at least here has). Modern culture, for better and worse, has just become more cognizant about how what people say has real and damaging consequences beyond being “offended”.

I’m starting to see this conversation becoming circular and devolving into something worse. Unless you have something educational to say, like Terasawa has been doing, I ask that we drop the conversation. I just see this going nowhere.

To be 100% clear, transphobia is not permissible on the forums. If you disagree, I offer you an olive branch just to keep your opinion to yourself.

[Terasawa]

The scientific "truth" (if so thorough an understanding is ever possible in this matter) is beyond my pay grade. I just take umbrage with the antiquated notion that sex and gender are synonymous. They aren't and haven't been, scientifically speaking, for at least a coupla' decades. To my understanding, sex is a concept more concerned with biological factors, while gender concerns societal, cultural, and factors of self-awareness.

Some use the outdated and disproved scientific concept that they are synonymous as ammunition against transpeople, but that's ignorant of the FACTS that scientific understanding continues to evolve. For one thing, we learn more every day, and what was accepted as fact x amount of time ago is not necessarily accepted today. For example, it used to be a scientific "fact" that different races were inherently inferior to others (this was a legitimate discipline in its day!); "there are only two genders" is akin to that.

I mean, FFS, I was taught in high school that there were more than male and female sexes -- XX is "female," XY is "male," but science has known of XXY, XXYY, XYY, etc. for decades. Neither gender nor sex are binary, and we've understood that about sex for years.

Evan beat me to this because I'm not as efficient as he is. And also because I'm taking the time to respond to:

What makes Transphobia that much more important than other people experiencing hate? Is it because now it's that much more prevalent in this day and age. Now, I am NOT ignoring it's existence it's more in the news now because it's the flavor of the month so to speak.

I'm saying why is this comedy special about Trans pushed to the front of every other issue? Because some popular comedian said a few things?

Does it suck for this community to experience hate Hell yeah it sucks. Everybody experiences hate, even white people are experiencing hate. Now yelling about what some comedian said is not something to get offended by. Nothing serious has happened (Thankfully) over his special aside from offending some people.

Offending someone is not s crime.

I understand that transphobia isn't a priority to you. It is for other people, including those whose lives are directly impacted by people who watch Chappelle's special, defend it as being little more than a comedy routine, and who write off the controversy by saying that he's just speaking "facts."

As I said, this is much more than just about what "some popular comedian said." It's also about the Netflix CEO's response, which basically allowed for transphobia under the guise of "creative freedom." To say that "nothing serious has happened" from this is pretty ignorant (again). Words have power. Actions have power. He said some pretty transphobic things and the CEO of one of the most popular entertainment platforms worldwide has said that language will be OK on Netflix. I'm sorry you don't understand this or don't care that it's going on.

And guess what? There's a lot of shit going on in the news that does not personally impact my life or about which I frankly don't care. But you won't see me going around telling people that they're wrong to be upset about the current events that affect their lives, even if they seem insignificant from my perspective.

[goji89]

And guess what? There's a lot of poop going on in the news that does not personally impact my life or about which I frankly don't care. But you won't see me going around telling people that they're wrong to be upset about the current events that affect their lives, even if they seem insignificant from my perspective.

I agree as well, but don't think that I at any point went out of my way to tell people anything. I engaged in a conversation otherwise I wouldn't have brought it up nor cared enough to.

[eabaker]

I feel like we're at a good place right now to drop this issue, unless anyone can provide further facts (but I think that overview goji posted did a pretty good job of covering the bases).

[goji89]

I feel like we're at a good place right now to drop this issue, unless anyone can provide further facts (but I think that overview goji posted did a pretty good job of covering the bases).

Thank you.

Consider it dropped.

[Rando Yaguchi]

Just a final word, for clarity's sake.

We all have opinions that can be deemed offensive by *someone*, even if there's no hate behind them. You could go on television and poke holes in, say, the religious beliefs of conservative people, and how these beliefs inform their politics in a dangerous way - you'll offend these people deeply. They may feel upset or marginalized. Is this a great moral crime? Or is it about context - who you're offending and why, and whether or not you're correct in what you're saying? I'm leaning toward the latter.

Also, I'm aware of the distinction between sex and gender, I guess I'm just more interested in the grey areas of gender and how that applies to how we handle trans issues in society. I think the trans discourse has been spinning its wheels for years now, because we have failed to define the terms correctly. Speaking of, I'll just leave it at that.





EDIT: Ugh...alright. Gotta say my piece, then I'm done, promise. Just hear me out, and leave this up, please. I've earned that much.

As I mentioned in another thread a few months ago: in my thousands of interactions with friends, family, colleagues and strangers over the decades, I have yet to hear a single reason as to why homosexuality is wrong, either morally or ethically...because the reason doesn't exist.

The same applies to trans: there is nothing wrong with identifying as a different sex or gender. Period.

I've always been unapologetic about my alliance with LGBT: even as a kid surrounded by redneck, rural Montanans, and well into adulthood. Being an artist nerd musician weirdo myself, my company has always been dominated by fellow outcasts and, you guessed it, lots of gay and trans people...a few bi girlfriends, and plenty of straight folk as well. These will always be my people...and even if they weren't, I would never deny their humanity, or hold them to a different standard. Trust me, my cred as an ally is fucking phenomenal, no one here or anywhere else can question it.

LGBT should never be conflated with other, morally despicable sexual actions. Again, obvious stuff.

That being said...does any of this make LGBT untouchable? Are they exempt from criticism or satire or scrutiny? Of course not....turns out these groups are comprised of humans. Do you know about humans? I'm gonna assume you do. They're capable of mistakes, mischief, betrayal, dishonesty, and even evil. They're prone to exaggeration and emotional nonsense. Sometimes a 'cause', no matter how righteous, can be corrupted. Doesn't matter what superficial 'identities' they assume, they're just fucked up people like the rest of us. Our similarities are far more apparent than our differences... and if we can't joke about these things, make light of them in a friendly way, then what are we left with?

Now, I wrongly assumed that Chappelle's lastest LGBT comments were in the vein of his milquetoast stuff from Sticks and Stones, and that the outrage was exaggerated, like many socio-political 'scandals' of my lifetime....I was wrong, and was swiftly corrected. I must concede that some of Dave's remarks went too far.

But you know what's a shame? This thread: right when perfectly reasonable questions were being raised, right when the terms were about to be properly outlined? What happened? A few generic, unspecific gender vs sex platitudes were thrown around and hey look, the discussion was shut down. All the sudden, the experts of the thread claimed the subject matter is out of their purview. Weird. Even after a page and a half of back and forth, after all the moral posturing, we hadn't even set the terms of the argument in a coherent way. The discussion was labeled as 'circular', when in fact it was only getting started.

And then accusations of transphobia started flying around. Wow. Go fuck yourselves, I mean that. You know nothing.

Consider this a resignation as both mod and user. Don't take it personally, this is merely a long-overdue epilogue of my divorce from the internet...personal growth and shit, right? I wish you all the best, and keep it Toho (not just kaiju, but the art films too!)

[goji89]

Well if this didn't make anyone here huh, I don't know what will.

But I agree 100% with everything you posted. And just like I told you before in our pm's now you know what I mean about this place. It's sad you're leaving but damn what a way to go.

PM me dude.

[eabaker]

Just to be entirely clear, in my mind tis was a conversation about the protests in response to the Chappelle controversy, not a conversation about the science of gender. I felt that the primary topic of discussion had been pretty well covered, and that an understanding had bee reached among all parties. It never would have occurred to me that this thread would be the home for an ongoing discussion on the role of gender in the individual and society, and I do not believe that this specific thread would be an appropriate place for such a discussion.

[LSD Jellyfish]

-snip-

You're fine. My comments about "transphobia", and "circular conversations" were not intended or directly aimed at you. Rather, they were a rather a generalized statement to make it clear/be a warning that transphobia wasn't something that will be openly tolerated here. Despite but my own political beliefs, which are actually far more complex than what I may express here, I do believe that people should have the ability to question the world around them. It also ignored that there was multiple attempts by the higher ranking staff, to offer everyone pretty much a peaceful way-out that did not involve controversy or argumentation. I thought that would be the best way, and yet here we are.

Terasawa said it was "above his pay grade" to explain the difference between sex and gender, as well as the full extent of trans related issues. But fuck it'll explain:

As Terasawa points out, both sex and gender are much more fluid than we think they are.

Gender is a social issue. It defines us as what is "masculine" or what is feminine" and what is societally is expected throughout society. Like culture, it is something that is only easy to explain through differences and division. But in reality it is very fluid. Depending on the country, what is considered masculine and feminine and whatnot varies differently. The roles of "men" and "women" differ from country from country believe it or not. It also changes by era to era.

Regarding biological sex, it is both more similar and more examples to the gender issues. As Terasawa points out, the XY and biology stuff is a lot more varied and distinct than a lot of people would like to think. It's all developmentally based on hormones that we have and inherent. You take hormones and actually your body will change.

And that formation starts from a young age.

Everyone actually starts out as a woman, relatively speaking, in the pregnancy cycle. After that hormones and other factors develop. To be explicit, there are many people that are born intersex

Spoiler:

and have genitals that are halfway in between. The clitoris in the human body is just an alternate path for male genitalia.

. And probably, there's a lot of people that fall into that category, but we aren't going to pull their pants to inspect them, are we?

And this is all ignoring how we are actively continually learning more and more how the human body works and functions.

But all of this most importantly ignores the "culture war" that you speak of, which I agree to some extent exists and is an issue. It ignores TERFs and violent rhetoric that is used to discriminate against trans people.

A lot of TERF rhetoric includes bs like "women who have periods"/ and or "born from a uterus" etc...
Ignores:
-There are many people born from a C-Section
-There are non trans women that do not have periods.

And Chapelle, critically ignores and causes purposeful division:
-Black trans people are often the most in danger from gender related violence.
-He completely ignores intersectional feminism, or rather that the problems that black people and that LGBTQ+ community have an intersection of oppression.

I hope that this explanation is sufficient, If you want an explanation why this thought process is something I look with skepticism it is because there are those that say "I'm just asking questions" are those that are backing up invasive and rather fucked up ways of demeaning people. Again, I'll extend a final olive branch. If you disagree if me any of the above, that's honestly, fine. But please keep it to yourself. Understand that while your own opinions

[Terasawa]

All the sudden, the experts of the thread claimed the subject matter is out of their purview. Weird.

I never positioned myself as an expert, nor did I claim "the subject matter is out of [my] purview."

You asked me this, specifically (with my added emphasis): "So what's the truth behind the science of gender, Terasawa?"

And, as I said, "The scientific 'truth' (if so thorough an understanding is ever possible in this matter) is beyond my pay grade."

I want to reiterate that I never posed as an expert in this discussion. You asked me for the "truth," I explained why said "truth" is difficult (if not outright impossible) but nevertheless gave you the best answer I could, as I understand it.

In one of your earlier posts you mentioned a "blindspot." As far as I'm concerned, all of us who aren't transgender ourselves have one. We can never fully understand trans issues or perspectives because we don't and can't experience them the way actual transpeople do. That belief informed my response, that I cannot offer you scientific truth nor even personal truth. I can only repeat what the actual experts have said. Frankly, I was uncomfortable with the question as it was posed.

Much of what (frankly: little) I know about transgender issues, especially in a scientific context, I've learned only in the last year. I am not and would never intentionally prop myself up as an expert on that. Science is something I take very seriously, more so in 2021 with so much bullshit "science" being shared for political reasons. That's why I was trying to be so careful answering your question.

Furthermore, I don't think I was operating under the guise of expertise when I was confronting another user's apparent use of "science" and "fact" to defend the transphobic ideal propagated by Dave Chappelle; I don't think I was professing expertise by dismissing antiquated definitions of gender or sex. Suppose someone said Pluto is a planet because it was once scientifically defined as one -- if I pointed out why it no longer is, would I be painting myself as an expert? In short, it does not take an expert or scholarly authority to explain in broad terms why something is. That was all I was ever trying to do.

For what its' worth, I was not accusing you of being transphobic. I'm sorry you interpreted my posts that way, but truthfully, that was not my intent. I thought you were just trying to get to the bottom of the controversy, and what I disagreed with you about was your labeling this from the outset an overreaction, which we went back and forth on a fair bit (just stating this for the record, because I think we'd both agree we resolved that last night). I apologize for being snotty about it here, and I'm also sorry that you felt I was calling you transphobic. I try to be deliberate with my words so as to avoid that type of confusion. Evidently I wasn't last night, so I accept the fault. I hope you'll accept my apology.

[Cryptid_Liker]

Demeking, the Sea Monster is based off of a late 90s porn film.

[CrimsonBloodX]

OK, I just watch Dave's special.

I don't understand the controversy. He just made jokes and now many people are offended by it because they misunderstood what he was actually saying. Had they actually watch the special and listen to what he said, then they would be so angry. He wasn't attacking the trans community at all. He was showing support for them. He just so happen to throw some jokes that made it sound like he's transphobic. That's the type of thing he does. The protest was unnecessary and it just made them look pathetic and embarrassing.