Japanese vs. Dubbed Versions of Heisei Movies

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Terasawa
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Re: Japanese vs. Dubbed Versions of Heisei Movies

Post by Terasawa »

Pronouns are used with much less frequency in Japanese than they are in English, so in the original language, the monsters usually aren't referred to by anything but their names. IIRC, Mothra is never referred to the Japanese equivalent of "he" or "she" in Godzilla vs Mothra, nor is Godzilla.

We also know that the '90s dubbers didn't have much to work with when creating the dubbing script:
Craig Allen wrote:All the English script-writer gets is a translation of the Japanese; there's no briefing on the background or history of the stories, or anything like that. So sometimes he doesn't fully comprehend what's supposed to be happening, and sometimes we have to make last-minute changes to the script in the studio...I know we sometimes get the details wrong.
They often gets nearly unintelligable English translations to work with. They then have to write the English to fit the lips of the on-screen characters. (And they usually have to do *very quickly*.)
Anyway, I assume the translation situation was the case in the '60s and '70s as well. That would explain why the ToMG dub uses "Radon," just as both versions of Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II did.

One thing Allen didn't mention is that either the scripter or the original translator has to make the dialogue sound like English (instead of a literal translation of Japanese), and that would include inserting pronouns where the Japanese dialogue doesn't use any.
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eabaker
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Re: Japanese vs. Dubbed Versions of Heisei Movies

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Chrispy_G wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:44 pm
Legion1979 wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 11:46 am Did you just say people didn't laugh at Raimi's Spider-Man films when they were new? I was in the audience for the 3rd one in 2007. Believe me, the audience laughed.
No, you missed the point of what I was saying. I wasn't saying nobody laughed at those films, or that they don't have intentional humor.

I am saying that with age, things about the films that were generally NOT perceived as silly/cringey have since aged to a point where they might induce eyerolls or unintended sniggers from modern viewers (or many more than they did back then). As happens with EVERY film. To kids who grew up on Adam West Batman, Tim Burton's Batman was the dark and serious reboot. To kids who grew up on Burton Batman films or BTAS, then the Nolan Trilogy was Batman "taken seriously"...and then you have films like Joker and The Batman that make the Nolan films feel like much more lighthearted affairs. For better (Joker) and for worse (The Batman)

For all of the things that can be said about the Heisei Godzilla Dubs, at least they never erroneously referred to Mothra as a He.
I didn't misunderstand, I just disagreed. Every example you're using is loaded with elements that were perceived as silly at the time; the issue is a portion of the modern audience failing to recognize the intent behind those elements, which is something that was also true of some viewers at the time of original release.
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Re: Japanese vs. Dubbed Versions of Heisei Movies

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Legion1979 wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 5:18 am
Chrispy_G wrote: Sat Jul 23, 2022 10:44 pm For all of the things that can be said about the Heisei Godzilla Dubs, at least they never erroneously referred to Mothra as a He.
......I'm almost positive that Mothra being a girl wasn't something that was established until long after the 60s films were made. You can't fault older movies for not calling Mothra the gender we now accept her as.
Wasn't it always fairly consistently translated to she for the 61 film and beyond?

Is it a scenario where they were using "it" in Japanese but that modern subs opt for "she" instead?

Either way it is erroneous. I'm not saying I blame them for the mistake, but it is a break that I accept no more than if they started referring to "Godzilla, King of the Monsters" as a She.
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Re: Japanese vs. Dubbed Versions of Heisei Movies

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......oooookay

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Terasawa
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Re: Japanese vs. Dubbed Versions of Heisei Movies

Post by Terasawa »

Chrispy_G wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:46 pm Is it a scenario where they were using "it" in Japanese but that modern subs opt for "she" instead?
As I said, personal pronouns are used quite differently in Japanese than in English. Here's a useful resource that breaks down the most commonly used pronouns, but it's strictly about real-world contexts. In short, more often than not in these movies, gendered pronouns are not used for the monsters in the original Japanese dialogue; the only example I can think of off the top of my head is a character colloquially calling Godzilla a "bastard" in GvSG (kinda difficult to explain how this operates as a pronoun).

My knowledge of Japanese is very limited, but I have transcribed and machine-translated the Japanese closed captions on the Toho discs of the 91-95 movies, both Toho Kong films, GMK, et al. So, to be fair, ^this isn't conclusive, and I'd bet there are a few instances where a monster is referred to with gendered pronouns in very specific contexts. But in all the films I've taken apart word-by-word, I haven't come across any dialogue that literally translates to "He's destroying the city!" It's just not how the language normally functions.

All of this is because Japanese still works without a subject in every sentence. So, as basically as I can explain it, you'll have a character establish that "Mothra" is the subject by using the creature's name, and then the rest of the dialogue in that conversation takes Mothra's position as subject (or object, etc.) for granted -- or, "Mothra" is spoken again when the subject needs re-clarified. There's no direct analogue I can think of in English, which is why the subtitles and dubbed dialogue insert so many pronouns where there are none in the Japanese. In those cases, it seems to be the translator opting for a pronoun instead of repeatedly using the character's name in each line, which is pretty unusual in English.
Last edited by Terasawa on Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Japanese vs. Dubbed Versions of Heisei Movies

Post by Chrispy_G »

Terasawa wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 1:46 pm
Chrispy_G wrote: Sun Jul 24, 2022 12:46 pm Is it a scenario where they were using "it" in Japanese but that modern subs opt for "she" instead?
As I said, personal pronouns are used quite differently in Japanese than in English. Here's a useful resource that breaks down the most commonly used pronouns, but it's strictly about real-world contexts. In short, more often than not in these movies, gendered pronouns are not used for the monsters in the original Japanese dialogue; the only example I can think of off the top of my head is a character colloquially calling Godzilla a "bastard" in GvSG (kinda difficult to explain how this operates as a pronoun).

My knowledge of Japanese is very limited, but I have transcribed and machine-translated the Japanese closed captions on the Toho discs of the 91-95 movies, both Toho Kong films, GMK, et al. So, to be fair, ^this isn't conclusive, and I'd bet there are a few instances where a monster is referred to with gendered pronouns in very specific contexts. But in all the films I've taken apart word-by-word, I haven't come across any dialogue that literally translates to "He's destroying the city!" It's just not how the language normally functions.

All of this is because Japanese still works without a subject in every sentence. So, as basically as I can explain it, you'll have a character establish that "Mothra" is the subject by using the creature's name, and then the rest of the dialogue in that conversation takes Mothra's position as subject (or object, etc.) for granted -- or, "Mothra" is spoken again when the subject needs re-clarified. There's no direct analogue I can think of in English, which is why the subtitles and dubbed dialogue insert so many pronouns where there are none in the Japanese. In those cases, it seems to be the translator opting for a pronoun instead of repeatedly using the character's name in each line, which is pretty unusual in English.
I appreciate the response and clarification. I apologize for coming off as so irritable sometimes.

As a movie viewer, I admit I get hung up on some weird oddities and it can become hard for me to let things go. When something seems to be 'fine' or more or less 'perfect' outside of one or two glaring, easily avoidable "flaws" I have a nasty habit of letting it spoil the whole pot for me. "Poison pills" is a term I have used. "Well THAT just ruins it all!" type of stuff.

In the realm of the Marvel movies, Spider-Man: Homecoming having a super-erroneous "Eight Years Later" title card to describe the gap in time from The Avengers (confirmed 2012) to Spider-Man: Homecoming (2017-2018 at the latest as Infinity War is DEFINITELY confirmed 2018) makes a piece of my mind go absolutely apoplectic. The MCU always took so much pride in basically perfect continuity, so a glaring, easily checkable, easily fixable title card like that drives me absolutely BONKERS.

Mothra being called "He" or "The Thing" is one of those things I find annoying. Outside of those 2 things, I actually would argue all day long that the US cut of Mothra is the superior version (I don't like the altered title or the censoring of gunshot violence, though). The complete rebranding of Godzilla as "Gigantis" in the US version of Godzilla Raids Again is an even worse example. At least Mothra is called Mothra SOMETIMES in Godzilla vs The Thing.

Long story short I simply have to get over myself and let these things go. I need to either accept them as simple inconsistencies that do little to no harm to the films OR to hand-wave them as "in-universe" mistakes and inconsistencies. The names and genders of Monsters not being universally known or agreed upon actually makes a lot of sense when you think about it.

We can return this thread to the topic at hand which is the quality of the Heisei Dubs. I would take a fresh Re-Dub any day of the week but I'm more than okay with them :)
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Re: Japanese vs. Dubbed Versions of Heisei Movies

Post by DrBreakfastMachine »

I go back and forth between dubs and subs for the Showa movies, but I can't imagine ever revisiting any of the Heisei dubs now that the subbed versions are available, except for my VHS copy of 1985, because it has its own unique flavor (and that flavor is Dr. Pepper).

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