Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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Legion1979
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

Post by Legion1979 »

I dont know how anyone could possibly come away from Gamera 3 thinking " Fuck Ayana! She should suffer every day for the rest of her life!" Did that person even watch the same movie I did? The lack of empathy and emotional maturity is pretty scary.

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king_ghidorah
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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Legit a little worrying. ^^

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eabaker
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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shadowgigan wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:52 pm She never committed an act of violence until after she had already been taken to Iris’s lair. It is never really made clear the extent to which Ayana influenced Iris or vice versa, but even the assumption that Ayana could have stopped Iris is just that, an assumption. TK states that Iris can become more powerful by forming a link with a human, but was she even a willing participant in that? It didn’t seem to make any difference to Iris.
Yeah, in those later scenes I see very little reason to believe Ayana is fully in control of her faculties. Once she's absorbed by Irys, the "real" Ayana certainly seems to awaken and understand for the first time exactly what she's been a part of.

But, of course, we're talking about a wonderfully ambiguous movie when it comes to those kinds of details. Part of the basis for disagreement over what fate Ayana deserves (though, you know, as an artistic metaphor for an emotional state, I'm not sure the idea of her "deserving" anything makes sense) seems to be a disagreement over what is actually happening in the movie.

In terms of the school shooter comparison, the implication seems to be that Ayana is the shooter and Irys is the gun, but from my reading of the movie... Irys is both the shooter and the gun, and Ayana is more like the gunpowder.
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Mac Daddy MM
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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SoggyNoodles2016 wrote: Tue Jan 25, 2022 9:09 pm

Yeah, the sheer loss of life she does is horrific. However, again, I do think the intent of the movie is she's being manipulated by Irys, and she's not really in control. Her grief and rage awoke Irys but HE is using her as the tool for his venagance. Not the other way around.
Actual quotes from the film:

"Iris! Destroy!" - Iris then impales Gamera's chest with a spear arm. "DESTROY!"

"Ayana, no!"
"Is Gamera still connected to you!?"
"No, it's Hirasaka (Ayana). She's fighting against him." Asagi grabs Ayana's shoulders. "Gamera isn't fighting against you! Ayana, can't you see that!? If YOU don't stop, WE'LL die! And look at the flames! People are out there... AYANA, STOP!"

Crazy lady tries to take the reigns from Ayana and fails.

Spoiler alert... Ayana... Does not stop.

This scene right here highlights how Ayana has gone way past the point of no return.


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eabaker
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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Ayana is absolutely driven in her quest to destroy Gamera - whom she believes to be evil. But I do not believe she is lucent at that stage, or cognizant of the full consequences of her actions.
Last edited by eabaker on Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mac Daddy MM
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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eabaker wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:01 am Ayana is absolutely driven in her quest to destroy Gamera - whom she believes to be evil. I do not believe she is lucent at that stage, or cognizant of the full consequences of her actions.
Neither would be a father who shoots up a restaurant because his daughter's rapist works there and ends up killing him... Plus injuring/killing a handful of innocent people caught in the crossfire. Whatever her beliefs are, it does not excuse the fact that her actions directly caused the deaths of thousands of people.


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plasmabeam wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 3:03 am Hear me out on this. What if Godzilla is actually Suko’s father? In GvK when Godzilla defeated Kong and they were roaring at each other, what if Godzilla inseminated Kong at that moment and that’s why they were screaming?

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Maritonic
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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The constant mentions of rape and/or shootings is really gross, to be honest.
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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Maritonic wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:07 am The constant mentions of rape and/or shootings is really gross, to be honest.
Ok?


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plasmabeam wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 3:03 am Hear me out on this. What if Godzilla is actually Suko’s father? In GvK when Godzilla defeated Kong and they were roaring at each other, what if Godzilla inseminated Kong at that moment and that’s why they were screaming?

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Maritonic
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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Mac Daddy MM wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:08 am
Maritonic wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:07 am The constant mentions of rape and/or shootings is really gross, to be honest.
Ok?
Good talk.
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Any issues, please feel free to private message me or e-mail me at MaritonicTK@gmail.com.
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MechaGoji Bro7503 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:24 pm Don't go to a friend's wedding, send him 100 copies of Gamera vs Zigra instead. Be a man.

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Mac Daddy MM
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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Maritonic wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:11 am
Mac Daddy MM wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:08 am
Maritonic wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:07 am The constant mentions of rape and/or shootings is really gross, to be honest.
Ok?
Good talk.
Sure thing


Quote of the Year:
plasmabeam wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 3:03 am Hear me out on this. What if Godzilla is actually Suko’s father? In GvK when Godzilla defeated Kong and they were roaring at each other, what if Godzilla inseminated Kong at that moment and that’s why they were screaming?

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eabaker
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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Mac Daddy MM wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:04 am
eabaker wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:01 am Ayana is absolutely driven in her quest to destroy Gamera - whom she believes to be evil. I do not believe she is lucent at that stage, or cognizant of the full consequences of her actions.
Neither would be a father who shoots up a restaurant because his daughter's rapist works there and ends up killing him... Plus injuring/killing a handful of innocent people caught in the crossfire. Whatever her beliefs are, it does not excuse the fact that her actions directly caused the deaths of thousands of people.
Nobody has argued that Ayana's role in these events should be excused. The argument here is over whether or not the movie should include explicit punishment for her as part of its narrative.

And your example makes a lot of assumptions about the degree of control (and literal consciousness) Ayana is experiencing during those events, which is a matter the movie leaves at least partly open to viewer interpretation. But in that scenario, were it to come to trial, there would be legal arguments and expert testimony targeted at mitigating the punishment based on the circumstances.
Last edited by eabaker on Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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shadowgigan
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

Post by shadowgigan »

Is Asagi then responsible for any collateral damage that occurred when she was connected to Gamera?

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Mac Daddy MM
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

Post by Mac Daddy MM »

eabaker wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:14 am
Mac Daddy MM wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:04 am
eabaker wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:01 am Ayana is absolutely driven in her quest to destroy Gamera - whom she believes to be evil. I do not believe she is lucent at that stage, or cognizant of the full consequences of her actions.
Neither would be a father who shoots up a restaurant because his daughter's rapist works there and ends up killing him... Plus injuring/killing a handful of innocent people caught in the crossfire. Whatever her beliefs are, it does not excuse the fact that her actions directly caused the deaths of thousands of people.
Nobody has argued that Ayana's role in these events should be excused. The argument here is over whether or not the movie should include explicit punishment for her as part of its narrative.

And your example makes a lot of assumptions about the degree of control (and literal consciousness) Ayana is experiencing during those events, which is a matter the movie leaves at least partly open to viewer interpretation.
Just going by the story of the movie, we don't need to see what Ayana's repercussions are. She's not the only character who's survived these types of ordeals to not get punished for it by the end. If Darth Vader didn't die at the end of RoTJ, do you really think the Galaxy/New Republic would just swipe all of his past sins under the rug, for example?

I have no doubt that following Gamera 3, and if the world survived the Gyaos onslaught, Ayana faced justice in some degree.

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shadowgigan wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:17 am Is Asagi then responsible for any collateral damage that occurred when she was connected to Gamera?
This shit needs to get lawyered, ASAP. That's a GREAT question, and also goes for any mechs.
Last edited by Mac Daddy MM on Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.


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plasmabeam wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 3:03 am Hear me out on this. What if Godzilla is actually Suko’s father? In GvK when Godzilla defeated Kong and they were roaring at each other, what if Godzilla inseminated Kong at that moment and that’s why they were screaming?

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eabaker
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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Mac Daddy MM wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:17 am
Just going by the story of the movie, we don't need to see what Ayana's repercussions are.
Great. I'm glad you agree.
She's not the only character who's survived these types of ordeals to not get punished for it by the end. If Darth Vader didn't die at the end of RoTJ, do you really think the Galaxy/New Republic would just swipe all of his past sins under the rug, for example?
Nope. Hence my bringing up what would happen when your gun-toting papa went to trial.
I have no doubt that following Gamera 3, and if the world survived the Gyaos onslaught, Ayana faced justice in some degree.
Quite possibly, although I'm not sure how the legal system would address such an abstract crime as "allowing her hatred to be fuel for a monster's rampage."
Last edited by eabaker on Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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shadowgigan
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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In the American legal system, I could see her being tried as an adult somehow and charged with murder and possibly terrorism-related charges. They would definitely argue Iris was the murder weapon. It would be a landmark case. No way the US wouldn't prosecute.

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Mac Daddy MM
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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eabaker wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:21 am
Quite possibly, although I'm not sure how the legal system would address such an abstract crime as "allowing her hatred to be fuel for a monster's rampage."
Could be a hate crime against Gamera. Or, at the very least, abuse to animals.
Last edited by Mac Daddy MM on Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.


Quote of the Year:
plasmabeam wrote: Tue Dec 05, 2023 3:03 am Hear me out on this. What if Godzilla is actually Suko’s father? In GvK when Godzilla defeated Kong and they were roaring at each other, what if Godzilla inseminated Kong at that moment and that’s why they were screaming?

Legion1979
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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OR, I could see Ayana ending up in serious therapy or even a mental institution for a very long time. I cant imagine a criminal trial ending in punishment or a jail sentance being the best way to handle what this child went through.
Last edited by Legion1979 on Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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king_ghidorah
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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Legion1979 wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 10:28 am OR, I could see Ayana ending up in serious therapy or even a mental institution for a very long time. I cant imagine a criminal trial ending in punishment or a jail sentance being the best way to handle what this child went through.
Exactly. She’s a victim and she’s broken.

It’s very odd to see such a humanistic film that explores rage and pain be twisted into a call for capital punishment.

The point of the story is that we can all become Ayana….we are all capable of that, and we all need grace. When Gamera roars and she comes back to life at the end….that kind of signifies that he’s forgiven her. He stays to make sure she’s ok. Even blows off his own arm to save her. Gamera is essentially a Christ allegory here so to then argue that a god or god adjacent entity was capable of forgiving her for trying to kill him yet people should and can not, is just….again, I need to reuse the word gross.

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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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There's also the question of whether the surviving Japanese government and authorities would even be aware that Anya had such a direct connection to Iris.
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Re: Gamera 3 : Really that good?

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Spuro wrote: Wed Jan 26, 2022 2:35 pm There's also the question of whether the surviving Japanese government and authorities would even be aware that Anya had such a direct connection to Iris.
I mean, even if the government were told about her involvement, there's no material evidence linking her to those events. If she were to be put on trial, the prosecution would basically have to rely on spectral evidence, and while I'm no expert in Japanese law, I doubt such a thing would have been admissible in any Japanese court at the time.

Odds are, Ayana's fate is in the hands of Asagi and Nagamine, and maybe Moribe and even Osako. That's a group that's a lot more likely to opt for rehabilitative/consequentialist justice over retributive punishment.
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