Gamera 3 : Really that good?

[Hidorajira98]

Know this thread's old, but I'm joining the minority. I ain't a fan of Gamera 3 either. Though I don't just dislike it, I hate it. Not just as a kaiju film but as a movie, it's in my top 5 worst of all time. While I used to be indifferent towards it many years ago, nowadays I've grown to absolutely despise the movie.

The main story for the film is a chore and a half to get through considering we focus on one of the most despicable depictions of a human being I have ever seen - Ayana. I don't care if she lost her family, it doesn't excuse her to act this unlikable and terrible as a person. I don't feel sympathetic in the slightest due to how much destruction and death she leaves and gets no punishment for it whatsoever (and the "her guilt is her punishment" excuse isn't going to fly with me, that is not a punishment in the slightest). The way she's portrayed is like how I hear about Shinji from EVA, just another teenager who loses people and is super upset... Big whoop, like we haven't that seen so many times. The actress does nothing to make the character interesting in the slightest. She seems to just phone it in without caring about what she's supposed to do for the script. I can understand if the character is depressed, but my god at least make it so Ayana lies about her depression without conveying her as this detestable brat that turned into a monster (oMg tHe iRoNy) by unleashing Irys and enjoying the people it kills. Another sin of the writing here is how it presents the whole Gyaos infestation idea yet that should've already been done and over with since GotU already wrapped up Gyaos's character. Why bring it back just to have Gamera make an introduction and serve nothing else to the story? You can say it also served to make Irys stronger, but you can literally cut the Gyaos out of the movie and I bet nothing would change. The whole "mana" part was a bunch of unneeded exposition just to tie Gamera, Irys, and Legion (which did not need to be explained with "mana," you could've just left it as "they're bugs and bugs colonize to grow the population" and that would've been better). The movie's trying to connect the events when it truly doesn't have to and it wastes time by doing this. It could've made better use of the run-time by having better characters doing better things than the Shinji clone or the two idiots debating philosophical garbage that is useless as hell.

The rest of the cast, apart from Even-Trashier-Shinji and the four myth blockheads (the villain, the black-haired wannabe James from Team Rocket, is damn near useless and is more of an annoying meth head), are also pretty dull. The only person I thought was somewhat average was the older stepbrother(?). He was the only one in the entire movie that had a brain cell and could pass a human among the "robotic" slackers who would claim to be. Everyone else was either forgettable (whoever was supposed to be with the main girl from Universe), annoying (the "villain"), or abhorrent (Ayana).

The editing for the film is incredibly weird in some spots. Some panning shots are questionable (two instances where the camera pans up at a fast pace and looks cooky), the fight looks lazily done with too much darkness and odd angles, the picture quality will sometimes switch from looking like a low budget film ( the "exorcist" scene) to high production as if they couldn't decide which camera to use as the main one.

Even the main monsters I'm not too crazy about. I can't exactly describe why, but I'm not a fan of the Gamera in this film. Irys is alright, I guess. The baby form is the better-looking one while the adult form is a gutted rotisserie chicken with tentacles and an oddly crafted head.

The only good thing about the film is the effects, however, it does little for me with this movie. It's comparable with a penny to a high gas/light bill.

Overall, I dislike saying the word, but I absolutely hated this movie. A rewatch back in August added fuel to the fiery disdain I have for this movie. I know a lot of people like this movie, and it's perfectly fine. What I write here shouldn't sway your perspective. It's merely another perspective to the topic at hand.

[LegendZilla]

Know this thread's old, but I'm joining the minority. I ain't a fan of Gamera 3 either. Though I don't just dislike it, I hate it. Not just as a kaiju film but as a movie, it's in my top 5 worst of all time. I used to be indifferent towards it many years ago, nowadays I've grown to absolutely despise the movie.

The main story for the film is a chore and a half to get through considering we focus on one of the most despicable depictions of a human being I have ever seen. I don't care if she lost her family, it doesn't excuse her to act this unlikable and terrible as a person. I don't feel sympathetic in the slightest due to how much destruction and death she leaves and gets no punishment for it whatsoever (and the "her guilt is her punishment" excuse isn't going to fly with me, that is not a punishment in the slightest). The way she's portrayed is like how I hear about Shinji from EVA, just another teenager who loses people and is super upset... Big whoop, like we haven't seen so many times. The actress does nothing to make the character interesting in the slightest. She seems to just phone it in without caring about what she's supposed to for the script. I can understand if the character is depressed, but my god at least make it so Ayana lies about her depression without conveying her as this detestable brat that turned into a monster (oMg tHe iRoNy) by unleashing Irys and enjoying the people it kills. The biggest sin of the writing here is how it presents the whole Gyaos infestation idea yet that should've already been done and over with since GotU already wrapped up Gyaos's character. The whole "mana" part was a bunch of unneeded exposition just to tie Gamera, Irys, and Legion (which did not need to be explained with "mana," you could've just left it as "they're bugs and bugs colonize to grow the population" and that would've been better). The movie's trying to connect the events when it truly doesn't have to and wastes time by doing this. It could've made better use of the run-time by having better characters doing better things than the Shinji clone or the two idiots debating philosophical garbage that is useless as hell.

The rest of the cast, apart from Even-Trashier-Shinji and the four myth blockheads (the villain, the black-haired wannabe James from Team Rocket, is damn near useless and is more of an annoying meth head), are also pretty dull. The only person I thought was somewhat average was the older stepbrother(?). He was the only one in the entire movie that had a brain cell and could pass a human among the "robotic" slackers who would claim to be. Everyone else was either forgettable (whoever was supposed to be with the main girl from Universe), annoying (the "villain"), or abhorrent (Ayana).

The editing for the film is incredibly weird in some spots. Some panning shots are questionable (two instances where the camera pans up at a fast pace and looks cooky), the fight looks lazily done with too much darkness and odd angles, the picture quality will sometimes switch from looking like a low budget film ( the "exorcist" scene) to high production as if they couldn't decide which camera to use as the main one.

Even the main monsters I'm not too crazy about. I can't exactly describe why, but I'm not a fan of the Gamera in this film. Irys is alright, I guess. The baby form is the better-looking one while the adult form is a gutted rotisserie chicken with tentacles and an oddly crafted head.

The only good thing about the film is the effects, however, it does little for me with this movie. It's comparable with a penny to a high gas/light bill.

Overall, I dislike saying the word, but I absolutely hated this movie. A rewatch back in August added fuel to the fiery disdain I have for this movie. I know a lot of people like this movie, and it's perfectly fine. What I write here shouldn't sway your perspective. It's merely another perspective to the topic at hand.

I said it before on another thread, but this is a movie I wish I could enjoy. I also don’t get the point of why they had to portray those “Four Myth Blockheads” as you put it in a villainous light. We already had Ayana herself acting effectively as a human villain. Lastly, you’re right. Trauma is not an excuse to act all narrow-minded and self entitled.

[shadowgigan]

Just finished it for the first time in a while. My god, what an incredible film. Definitely one of the best in the genre. I accept some of the cristicisms levied above, but it just doesn't matter to me. None of that takes me out of the film. The stakes feel incredibly high here, albeit different from the stakes in G2.

Regarding Ayana, I'm not sure she understood the consequences of her actions beyond possibly providing an outlet to deal with her hatred of Gamera. I don't think she foresaw it killing all of the villagers, to be honest. Later on in the film I think she is acting under some sort of spell. Perhaps the half-merge with Iris was enough to completely overwhelmn her will, I don't know. She doesn't seem to realize the consequences of her actions and the true nature of Iris until the scene where Iris attempts to merge with her again.

[LegendZilla]

Just finished it for the first time in a while. My god, what an incredible film. Definitely one of the best in the genre. I accept some of the cristicisms levied above, but it just doesn't matter to me. None of that takes me out of the film. The stakes feel incredibly high here, albeit different from the stakes in G2.

Regarding Ayana, I'm not sure she understood the consequences of her actions beyond possibly providing an outlet to deal with her hatred of Gamera. I don't think she foresaw it killing all of the villagers, to be honest. Later on in the film I think she is acting under some sort of spell. Perhaps the half-merge with Iris was enough to completely overwhelmn her will, I don't know. She doesn't seem to realize the consequences of her actions and the true nature of Iris until the scene where Iris attempts to merge with her again.

Would you care to explain what purpose that one gang of weirdos had other than spouting exposition to explain the movie’s themes?

[LSD Jellyfish]

I don't care if she lost her family, it doesn't excuse her to act this unlikable and terrible as a person. I don't feel sympathetic in the slightest due to how much destruction and death she leaves and gets no punishment for it whatsoever (and the "her guilt is her punishment" excuse isn't going to fly with me, that is not a punishment in the slightest). The way she's portrayed is like how I hear about Shinji from EVA, just another teenager who loses people and is super upset...

It's not just that she's super upset about losing her parents. She loses her parents and is forced to move from Tokyo, to a random town in Nara Japan. It's the sticks. I'd compare it to moving from NY to Iowa, but it's not even that. It's the equivalent from moving from a big city, to basically where you know absolutely nothing and there is nothing. The film also makes it decently clear that Ayana's extended family do not care for her, and consider her a burden. There's a line of dialogue where her foster parents get pretty aggressive about her taking her new families last name. The film also does a good job at briefly showing hints that the village she lives in is a completely dilapidated muck-town with barely anything going on. I forget the timestamp, but there's a decent shot of her school that's way too dilapidated. My memory is also hazy, but IIRC she was being bullied, which in Japan is often more socially neglectful. HS is also a very important age in Japan as it's often when the most decisions you have to make will impact your life.

Imagine for a second, if you were a teenager without perspective. You lost your family, and had to move someplace you didn't want to. Not just someplace, but someplace that was the complete opposite of everything your life had been up to until this point. Gone are your friends, your connivence, opportunities, and everything you know. Imagine if then that people there were emotionally abusing you, and making you feel ungrateful for existing.

I agree with ShadowGigan: I don't think Ayana also understood the full outcomes of her decision. Even if she did, I don't think it was "lets murder everyone" but rather, let's get revenge on the creature that took everything away from me. The name Iris, is also important, because she named it after her cat. It's clear she embraces Iris because it finally feels like something that gives her life meaning, and loves her. Let's remember that outside of the main cast from Gamera 1 and Gamera 2, there's a lot of evidence that shows that a significant amount of the public don't care about Gamera and view it as a horrible monster, one that is no different than Gyaos.

You don't have to like Ayana, but I think her emotional issues are pretty well justified in the film. Remember that Ayana is also a direct foil to Asagi, a teenager that despite her connection to giant monsters has been able to live as a normal teenager.

In regards to the myth/crazy people, I've grown to view them as an embodiment of a lot of the crazy cults that existed in Japan in the 1980's/90's in a post-bubble economy. Japan actually has a lot of doomsday cults, and it feels like the film was trying to tie that mentality of doom and gloom together to it's monster and characters.

EDIT: Moving this to the Gamera Sub-Forum

[shadowgigan]

Just finished it for the first time in a while. My god, what an incredible film. Definitely one of the best in the genre. I accept some of the cristicisms levied above, but it just doesn't matter to me. None of that takes me out of the film. The stakes feel incredibly high here, albeit different from the stakes in G2.

Regarding Ayana, I'm not sure she understood the consequences of her actions beyond possibly providing an outlet to deal with her hatred of Gamera. I don't think she foresaw it killing all of the villagers, to be honest. Later on in the film I think she is acting under some sort of spell. Perhaps the half-merge with Iris was enough to completely overwhelmn her will, I don't know. She doesn't seem to realize the consequences of her actions and the true nature of Iris until the scene where Iris attempts to merge with her again.

Would you care to explain what purpose that one gang of weirdos had other than spouting exposition to explain the movie’s themes?

Well, that and bringing Ayana to Kyoto.

[LegendZilla]

Just finished it for the first time in a while. My god, what an incredible film. Definitely one of the best in the genre. I accept some of the cristicisms levied above, but it just doesn't matter to me. None of that takes me out of the film. The stakes feel incredibly high here, albeit different from the stakes in G2.

Regarding Ayana, I'm not sure she understood the consequences of her actions beyond possibly providing an outlet to deal with her hatred of Gamera. I don't think she foresaw it killing all of the villagers, to be honest. Later on in the film I think she is acting under some sort of spell. Perhaps the half-merge with Iris was enough to completely overwhelmn her will, I don't know. She doesn't seem to realize the consequences of her actions and the true nature of Iris until the scene where Iris attempts to merge with her again.

Would you care to explain what purpose that one gang of weirdos had other than spouting exposition to explain the movie’s themes?

Well, that and bringing Ayana to Kyoto.

Yeah, but was it really necessary to make them villains when Ayana already effectively acts as our human villain?

[LSD Jellyfish]

Yeah, but was it really necessary to make them villains when Ayana already effectively acts as our human villain?

...Is there anything wrong with a film having multiple villains? In addition to getting Ayana to Kyoto, just like Iris they are also pretty clearly controlling Ayana. They, Iris and the circumstance also all make Ayana's motivations and outcomes pretty believable, for me anyways. As Ayana is a foil to Asagi, they are also loosely a foil to all the good-people that helped Asagi throughout the series like Dr, Nagamine.

I said it in my previous post, but they're just reflective of a lot of cultish thinking that was running rampant in Japan in the 1990's.

[LegendZilla]

Yeah, but was it really necessary to make them villains when Ayana already effectively acts as our human villain?

...Is there anything wrong with a film having multiple villains? In addition to getting Ayana to Kyoto, just like Iris they are also pretty clearly controlling Ayana. They, Iris and the circumstance also all make Ayana's motivations and outcomes pretty believable, for me anyways. As Ayana is a foil to Asagi, they are also loosely a foil to all the good-people that helped Asagi throughout the series like Dr, Nagamine.

I said it in my previous post, but they're just reflective of a lot of cultish thinking that was running rampant in Japan in the 1990's.

Maybe it's not the idea as much as the execution. It's been a long time since I've actually seen the film, but maybe that gang could've maybe approached Ayana, manipulating and appealing to her in the same way any narcissist would do with a disillusioned person or group.

[LSD Jellyfish]

... but maybe that gang could've maybe approached Ayana, manipulating and appealing to her in the same way any narcissist would do with a disillusioned person or group.

That's exactly what they do.

[LegendZilla]

... but maybe that gang could've maybe approached Ayana, manipulating and appealing to her in the same way any narcissist would do with a disillusioned person or group.

That's exactly what they do.

Okay. But still, Ayana deserved worse. Maybe not death, but definitely a smack in the face from that boy after all had been done.

[LSD Jellyfish]

Yes, after losing her family, being emotionally and physically bullied, taken advantage of by an unhinged group of cultists, controlled by a giant monster, and suddenly experiencing all the trauma said monster inflicted on others, the first thing Ayana, a minor, needs is a smack.

[LegendZilla]

Yes, after losing her family, being emotionally and physically bullied, taken advantage of by an unhinged group of cultists, controlled by a giant monster, and suddenly experiencing all the trauma said monster inflicted on others, the first thing Ayana, a minor, needs is a smack.

She still needs to take full responsibility for what she's done. Sympathy should not be an excuse to get away scott-free.

[LSD Jellyfish]

She still needs to take full responsibility for what she's done. Sympathy should not be an excuse to get away scott-free.

You're operating under the assumption that just because the film ends where it does, the police and/or the Japanese government won't prosecute her.

[Major sssspielberg!]

I've said this before, but if you look at G3 thematically (as a film about faith), in that context Asakura and Kurata fit in quite well: Asakura the religious zealot and Kurata the nihilist.
Yeah, they do some exposition lifting but rather than explaining the movie's themes they're demonstrating them. Asakura and Kurata might have unique endgame goals but in the meantime they're working the same "angle" as Iris (defeating Gamera for power) and both AsaKurata and Iris aim to use Ayana to their ends. Ayana isn't a villain, she's a traumatized kid with a political fortune teller, game designer and sliver tentacle kaiju trying to manipulate her.
Structurally they work pretty well as villains.
Plus Kurata gives a reason for there to be a Dreamcast in movie.

[LSD Jellyfish]

I'd say that Gamera 3 definitely isn't for everyone. Gamera 1 and 2 are arguably perfections of the established Kaiju genre, that had existed since the mid 60's. Gamera 3 re-defines it. It's pacing and structure is unconventional in comparison to a lot of the previous Heisei Godzilla and Gamera films. A very decent chunk of it is devoted to establishing a character that isn't mostly a plot device/character to keep the narrative going. It subverts the genre by also allowing for the audience to perhaps interpret Gamera as evil, and this was in an era where things like "what if the hero was evil" wasn't a cliche. Likewise, actually you wouldn't be entirely wrong for seeing Gamera as a dangerous threat like Ayana does. It also doesn't follow the established Gamera formula of Gamera having an early face off with the monster, only for him to be injured before coming back. There's the Shibuya destruction scene and then one long drawn out climax with Iris and Gamera.

[Major sssspielberg!]

^ I think Gamera's role plays into the faith bit in a meta way- the audience sees Gamera cause a lot of wanton property damage and civilian death. While Gamera has potential to be a threat, and technically acts as such, at the end we see him literally rescue a single person, rewarding any faith we might have that he's still a Good Turtle.

[shadowgigan]

Plus, their exposition lines are actually awesome, espeically in the dub. I don't care what anyone says lol.

[LSD Jellyfish]

^ I think Gamera's role plays into the faith bit in a meta way- the audience sees Gamera cause a lot of wanton property damage and civilian death. While Gamera has potential to be a threat, and technically acts as such, at the end we see him literally rescue a single person, rewarding any faith we might have that he's still a Good Turtle.

Definitely. The antagonist of the film isn't Iris or Ayana, it's doubt in Gamera. Ayana and Iris are manifestations of that.

I mentioned earlier that Gamera 3 has a really unconventional flow for a Gamera film. Most films feature Gamera getting wrecked midway through the film and requiring human assistance to be helped, before things begin to take a turn for the worse. I stated earlier that Gamera 3 breaks that mold by utterly decimating the Gyaos. Now I realized I was wrong: Gamera survives, but the faith in him is destroyed. That's the big "Gamera is defeated" moment, despite Gamera coming out on top of the confrontation. That's also why Gamera saving Ayana, despite her crimes, is an important victory/moment. It, and the subsequent Gyaos confrontation are the victory of faith in Gamera being restored.

[shadowgigan]

Gamera is definitely a more complex character than meets the eye; further complicated by the fact he is an animal given a fair amount of human traits. I don't think there is any dobut he is sentient, the only question is, to what extent? It's easy to see why a large portion of the Japanese population turn on him during the Shibuya incident. But one thing that always strikes me about Gamera is, he is always willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done. When Gamera is battling the Gyaos in Shibuya, it seems like he is giving more attention to the meta-narrative of Humanity + Gamera vs. the Gyaos, a battle that involves the very survival of the human race. Given this persepective, its easy to see why Gamera accepted collateral damage in this incident. We also learn through Ayana's flashbacks that perhaps Gamera caused collateral damage all the way back during his first fight against the Gyaos. However, Gamera does show a willingess to protect individuals when it is feasible, as evidence of him protecting Nagamine at the bridge, Asagi at Sendai, the Child in Shibuya, and Ayana at Kyoto Station. To me, all this is evidence that Gamera places the survival of the human race as a whole above the survival of individuals. It's the classic utilitarian dilemma. I don't think it inspires the audience to qustion whether Gamera is evil, but it does instill some doubt as to approach. It also has the potential to further humanize Gamera by showing the audience that even a completely seflless flying turtle makes mistakes, just like us.