Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Spuro
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Post by Spuro »

StardustGenius wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:27 am I dunno, I'd like to see Destoroyah and Biollante again. That's just me.
What I don’t understand is when people try to use arguments against bringing them back that point to the monsters being too closely connected to their backstories and thematic tie-ins, so you couldn’t bring them back without rehashing things.

Like, what? Have you guys even seen what they’ve being doing with Godzilla lately? GMK, the Monsterverse, Shin, and Singular Point are all far removed from the 1954 story of a monster being awoken and mutated by the atomic bomb. They stand for new problems facing the world now, if they even stand for anything at all. SP’s Godzilla is just an interdimensional monster, and MV’s Godzilla is an ancient guardian of Earth… not much thematic content there.

If Godzilla’s backstory, thematic and narrative history can change to suit the story, then why the hell can’t Destoroyah’s, or Biollante’s, or any other monster? They don’t HAVE to be tied to their original origin.
Last edited by Spuro on Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Post by StardustGenius »

I've always thought that was simply dog whistles for "I don't like this character and don't want them back."

Destoroyah or Biollante could easily be genetically modified lifeforms built as bio weapons.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Post by Mac Daddy MM »

While on the subject of returning kaiju, an opinion I've held for sometime and recently discovered is pretty unpopular is SpaceGodzilla. I think he can easily be brought back and they could do so without the need of implementing crystals into his design or powers. The same way Showa, Heisei, Kiryu, MV all look different with different powers despite all being "MechaGodzilla" could easily be done for SpaceGodzilla as well. Like a SpaceGodzilla return that has hints of Xenomorph traits, or something more disturbing like a "The Thing" SpaceGodzilla would translate just as well from Heisei SG to Reiwa SG as much as Showa MG did to Kiryu.

If we'd ever get a MonsterVerse/Pacific Rim crossover, SpaceGodzilla could legit be a Precursor Kaiju, an ehnanced mutated clone of Godzilla with glowy bits and spikes.
Last edited by Mac Daddy MM on Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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I'd be down for another take on SpaceGodzilla. One that could actually move its arms would be a nice change of pace lol plus I think the concept has solid enough legs.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Post by Voyager »

Tsuburaya is only famous and well-reknowned today because his work predates Star Wars. If he did his stuff after 1977 he would have been laughed off the proverbial stage. This is not to say he was bad at what he did, but his work is really only comparable to that of his era.
Last edited by Voyager on Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Voyager wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:08 pm Tsuburaya is only famous and well-reknowned today because his work predates Star Wars.
.............?
If he did his stuff after 1977 he would have been laughed off the proverbial stage.
..............?
This is not to say he was bad at what he did, but his work is really only comparable to that of his era.
...............?

Yeah, that's enough internet for today.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Voyager wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:08 pm Tsuburaya is only famous and well-reknowned today because his work predates Star Wars. If he did his stuff after 1977 he would have been laughed off the proverbial stage. This is not to say he was bad at what he did, but his work is really only comparable to that of his era.
This sounds reductionist tbh. You could say the same thing about Willis O'Brien if he had put his effects out after Gojira (even though I would still push against that notion, too).

I wouldn't count out a post-SW Tsubaraya, either, since his effects were still amazing for that time, too. Even in the 70s, war films from America used stock footage from the Japanese war films that Tsubaraya spearheaded special effects work on. I would say he would have had a good chance of not being laughed off.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Post by StardustGenius »

Now THAT is an unpopular opinion. But there's a lot of assumptions in it.

Tsuburaya's craft probably would have evolved as the times went. Nakano's work is kind of a glimpse of that. I think Kawakita's sci-fi and war stuff is a pretty good example of Tsuburaya's craft evolving to the next stage.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Post by Dv-218 »

Seems like a bit of a weird take to be honest. Like, of course Tsuburaya’s effects and craft during 50s and 60s Japan won’t look as good as ILM’s work in late 70s-80s America given the material and resources he had to work with but considering the timeframe and his ambitiousness he pulled off incredibly will and his advancements are worthy of consideration. Using this logic you could say that SW itself would look laughable if released after something like, say, Jurassic Park or Terminator 2.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Post by miguelnuva »

If Gamera 3 was adapted for the the US and done either modern Hollywood effects I think the Shibuya scene would put Gamera on the map in America.
Last edited by miguelnuva on Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Post by LSD Jellyfish »

Voyager's post is pretty obvious BAIT. The main reason of why it's so ridiculous was that Tsubaraya died in 1970, a full 7 years before Star Wars was made, so it's unfair to make a comparison. Worth also remembering that Star Wars...is Star Wars lol. Being compared to pretty much one of the most revolutionary and significant films in American history isn't a bad thing. It also ignores the obvious factor that Lucas was pretty inspired by Toho's output and probably drew inspiration from Tsubaraya to some degree.

However, I'd like to take this time to plug Tsuburaya's protégé, Nakano Teruyoshi:

https://wikizilla.org/wiki/Teruyoshi_Nakano

Mr. Nakano worked alongside Tsuabaraya for many years, as either an assistant SFX director or other roles.

If you've ever seen the earthquake scene in Submersion of Japan, I can't stress highly enough how realistic and horrifying it is. Walls of flames and fire really look like a city being burned to a crisp. Likewise, pretty much all of Nakano's output in the 70's and early 80's is top-notch. While Star Wars was fantastical and amazing, Toho and Nakano really mastered the disaster genre and city destroying in the 70's and 80's. It's a shame it was relatively downhill from there.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Spuro wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:21 pm
StardustGenius wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:27 am I dunno, I'd like to see Destoroyah and Biollante again. That's just me.
What I don’t understand is when people try to use arguments against bringing them back that point to the monsters being too closely connected to their backstories and thematic tie-ins, so you couldn’t bring them back without rehashing things.

Like, what? Have you guys even seen what they’ve being doing with Godzilla lately? GMK, the Monsterverse, Shin, and Singular Point are all far removed from the 1954 story of a monster being awoken and mutated by the atomic bomb. They stand for new problems facing the world now, if they even stand for anything at all. SP’s Godzilla is just an interdimensional monster, and MV’s Godzilla is an ancient guardian of Earth… not much thematic content there.

If Godzilla’s backstory, thematic and narrative history can change to suit the story, then why the hell can’t Destoroyah’s, or Biollante’s, or any other monster? They don’t HAVE to be tied to their original origin.
It's not that they need exactly the same origin story they had back in their original movie. It's just that we (or at least me) don't want to have a more made up origin story or them simply appearing because ... reasons & the name will sell.
I love the Ultra series, but the so many of the new episodes are very forgettable just because of them simply reusing a kaiju of the past seasons and make it appear out of nowhere or with a rather dull backstory.
in the end most kaijus are very similar once they are on screen, walking through a city and destroying buildings. Sure, KG or Megaguirus stand out more because they ain't simple bipedal monsters... but still, where is the difference between Gigan, Megalon, Spacegodzilla and King Gidorah? It's their reputation and backstory. Aside of that you could easily swap them.
I mean Spacegodzilla caught a child and died by the hands of the other titular character (though he needed some help). Guess what, so did King Gidorah in Mothra III. With the difference that Spacegodzilla got a whole different backstory than KG.

And yes, of course Godzilla benefits of having not this many kaijus as of now and with all of them looking very different as of now. This makes it way easier to remember which of them appeared in which movie. But I don't want to remember a kaiju just because of its looks. Preferably they should have an interesting backstory connected to them that gives them their actual character. Kaijus are usually just bad or good anyway so might as well just tell us, why they are the way they are.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Example I think Return of Godzilla and Godzilla vs Biollante hold up incredibly well compared to American output of the time. The evolution of Nakano's craft between the 70s Godzilla films and Return of Godzilla is pretty extraordinary.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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I don't think anyone really cares if SpaceGodzilla comes through a black hole or if Mecha-King Ghidorah has to do with the future, frankly I'm not sure a lot of fans seem concerned about when Mecha2 was being used as an alien-controlled creature and a modern design for Mecha74. I think Destoroyah being tied to the oxygen destroy can be explained in one or two lines of dialogue and people will be fine as long as the connection is hinted at.

All of that said, I think you would genuinely see people upset if Biollante's backstory was altered in any way. I think that's one you would get some trouble over. I do recall some complaining when Godzilla: Unleashed's storyline for her excluded Erika Shiragami that they had missed the point of the character by taking away the tragedy of her creation... and if you need to include the Shiragami family, you are asking a lot of the film.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Post by Legion1979 »

Biollante being some random genetically engineered thing robs the creature of its complexity and tragedy. A combination of Godzilla, a rose and a young girl is what makes Biollante as interesting as it is. I'd rather see Biollabte never return than be some misused opponent for Godzilla to beat on in, say, the next MV film.

Destroyer I care less about but it's origin is specific enough that if you can't do it right you shouldn't do it at all. However they've already proven in the MV that they couldn't give a rat's ass about the significance of the Oxygen Destroyer so I doubt it matters to them.

And Space Godzilla has a vague nothingburger of an origin. It's literally just a space Godzilla. They could easily do that again. It wouldn't even have to look like the Space Godzilla we know of. Just make it a Godzilla from space and go nuts with the design.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Biollante would definitely lose something if she wasn't a tragic frankenthing cobbled together by a grieving father trying to bring his daughter back. That's the real impact of her. Honestly, I don't care about the final form and the final battle beyond general "yay, monster action!" and the technical impressiveness of the effects. For me, Biollante is all about the origin and the horror of the Rose Form.

I wouldn't oppose a new incarnation that emphasizes the Final Form and action, though. I'm sure CGI could do great things with her.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Post by StardustGenius »

I don't think anything is sacred in this franchise. Reworking Godzilla every generation far removed from the 1954 tragedies is expected. The same can be done to just about any monster. Bring on them MV Heisei one shot beasts. Turn Titanosaurus into a job guy. Go nuts I say.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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JAGzilla wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:45 am Biollante would definitely lose something if she wasn't a tragic frankenthing cobbled together by a grieving father trying to bring his daughter back. That's the real impact of her. Honestly, I don't care about the final form and the final battle beyond general "yay, monster action!" and the technical impressiveness of the effects. For me, Biollante is all about the origin and the horror of the Rose Form.

I wouldn't oppose a new incarnation that emphasizes the Final Form and action, though. I'm sure CGI could do great things with her.
Biollante’s final form is amazing in the context of the film, because we see the transformation from something with emotion, and some semblance of humanity, to a completely crocodilian monstrosity. It also works from the reversal of a monster that was completely on the defensive, to now a monster that is heading right to Godzilla, biting and charging at him head on.

The comics work as a nice testing ground for these ideas, and divorced of her origin and backstory, With some exceptions (Cataclysm), Biollante has become a big brutish and hulking monster that doesn’t do much in the comics. She’s cool, but just not as amazing.

While some stuff with Biollante would be cool with modern computer generated effects. I think the original Biollante is probably peak-suitmation and puppetry in the genre. Minus more vines, and maybe a few extra shots of her leaving the ground, I’m not sure really how much more a CG Biollante could be an improvement over the original Biollante.

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StardustGenius wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:24 am I don't think anything is sacred in this franchise. Reworking Godzilla every generation far removed from the 1954 tragedies is expected. The same can be done to just about any monster. Bring on them MV Heisei one shot beasts. Turn Titanosaurus into a job guy. Go nuts I say.
That’s true too: as long as whatever they ultimately do is interesting, I don’t care.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Post by Legion1979 »

Godzilla as a character is a very specific situation. He's appeared in 36 (soon to be 38) feature films across almost 70 years and evolved constantly during that time. He means different things to different people and cultures. He's one of the most recognizable pop culture characters of all time.

I don't feel like you can apply something that like to other things just because it's true of Godzilla. Biollante appeared in one film 34 years ago, while Destroyer's only film turns 28 this year. They are far more bound to their original narratives because, In terms of cinema, that's all they have. Personally, the fact that Toho seems extremely reluctant to do anything more with these characters despite the popularity of the Heisei series is very telling.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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I think we need to go ahead and stop making assumptions about Toho's reluctance until we get an idea of which monsters will be in these next two movies. We've seen some indications in other media that the time of ultra-conservative Toho might be coming to an end as they realize that their larger roster is potentially profitable. The next two years will be illuminating, one way or the other.
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