Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

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Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by eabaker »

John Schuermann wrote: Fri May 06, 2022 12:19 pm Fwiw, I'd have no problem with "fixed" versions being out there as long as the original always remains in circulation. Francis Ford Coppola, Ridley Scott, Steven Spielberg, Orson Welles and many others have gone back and revised works. In each case, they kept the originals in circulation so that we could always revisit them.

Playwrites revise plays and composers revise music all the time too. To use Star Wars as an example, you can hear numerous revisions John Williams made to what used to be the opening of the original 1977 soundtrack album (the main titles essentially spliced with part of the end titles).
Sure, but those are examples of artists revising their own work, not of someone else going back in and deciding to "fix" those works later, without the input of the original creators.
Last edited by eabaker on Fri May 06, 2022 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by Legion1979 »

And Toho has a history of aggressively trying to erase versions of movies that don't fit their own warped narrative of how the films should be presented. I don't trust them.

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Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by miguelnuva »

I could very well be wrong but somone removing wires in a film feels like a different thing like Lucas trying to get rid of the OG OT for example. I don't think Toho necessarily wants set lighter or wires in their films but I see why somone would want the orginal cuts.
Last edited by miguelnuva on Fri May 06, 2022 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

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A lot of aspects to this topic
With Star Wars. The Original Saga is the creation of George Lucas. Written, Funded, Directed, Produced, Edited, Owned. He was all in on all of those films top to bottom. Even when he didn't do the on set directing, he had final word on the scripts, designs, edits, effects, etc.

If he wants to alter his vision for those films, and make that the ONLY version available, he has every right. I don't agree with EVERY alteration, but they are Lucas' films and maybe one day he will make some "Final Version" that is a bit more balanced. I would like for him to give the fans options just to be a bit more 'viewer friendly' but as the auteur of the work, he should have a say in how he wants the audience to experience his 6 film saga.

I showed my younger brother the 6 films from Episode 1-6, in that order. He had a fantastic experience and didn't respond in any particularly noteworthy way to any 'changes'. New eyes coming into the work don't even register the things old fans complain about.

Yes, not all changes are the same. Refining and improving odd effects work is one thing, and fairly 'harmless'...you kind of don't "lose" anything, you just gain the removal of the wires. Meanwhile, edits, alterations to scenes that influence the narrative or impact the pacing of the film are sort of 'creative alterations' and, depending on who you ask....impacts the film negatively.

Greedo shooting first doesn't transform all of Han's entire arc. His entire character arc did not hinge on that one moment. 99.99% of his characterization is exactly as it was always presented. He still had his gun drawn ready to fire on Greedo. Greedo popping a shot off before getting axed doesn't change Han's intent.

The PROBLEM with Greedo shooting first is that ultimately, it is arbitrary and awkward....it isn't a very effective special effect. It is generally just an odd moment technically and creatively, and has been re-jiggered so many times to try and MAKE it work...that any decent editor would realize the scene is best without it, in the name of keeping things simple and effective. Lucas has it in there for a reason but it is literally the most quirky of hills to die on.

With Toho going back and altering films and then nixing the originals....that's a little different. They own the films, but it is very much the next generation of execs and editors going in and retroactively 'improving' the works. Again, wire removal might seem innocuous, but would you remove wires and LEAVE glaringly bad composite shots? Certainly one takes you out of the movie just as much as the other? So then you are drawing this weird line. "We want benefits of 2022 wire removal here, but we want insanely dated 60s composite lines here"

JUST THE WIRES....that becomes an oddly specific hill to die on and line to draw in the sand. Yes, purely technical and inconsequential, often invisible "touch ups" are hard to argue AGAINST....but they are almost just as hard to argue for. Beyond just "It is 2022 and I don't like seeing the wires in old movies and it makes it hard for me to watch them or show them to others"

And on the overall note of restorations, good lord yes. These films should be treated as borderline sacred "historical documents" and every one of them should be preserved and presented for posterity to the highest degree of quality. The most disheartening thing is that all of the amazing American classics sometimes get the most lavish of treatments and presentations, as they deserve, but then titans of Japanese origins aren't nearly as prioritized or valued.

Although Toho performing these 4K restorations is certainly encouraging. The pipeline to consumers and collectors is where the real breakdown in 'respecting the value of these films' seems to happen.
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Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by canofhumdingers »

Strongly disagree with you about it being George’s right to make his edit the ONLY edit. And so do many of the people who actually made on the films.

Lorne Peterson, Phil Tippet, and Marcia Lucas (to name just a few) have all publicly lamented the fact that their award winning art has been actively suppressed.

And for anyone who wants to see those award winning effects, sound design, and editing; too bad (except thankfully for some very dedicated fans).

One more thing. Here’s an interview with Kershner (ESB Director) where he pretty clearly states that George was quite hands off and let him make the film he wanted. These films were collaborative efforts by many very talented people. It’s not right for one person to control access to them.

Anyway, we’ve derailed the thread enough I think. But I couldn’t be silent on that point.

I’ve got no problem in theory with films being modified by their creators or owners. I just HATE the idea of the original version being suppressed or lost or even just hard to find. And those very real risks and problems make me quite averse to altering films at all.

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Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

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Also worth noting re: George Lucas and Star Wars that he has had zero control over the property for a decade now, and Lucasfilm/Disney STILL won’t do anything with the original untouched versions…even going so far as to add a second of unnecessary and untranslated Greedo dialogue in ANH when they were dropped on Disney+ in 4K (fans have dubbed the uttered word “Maclunkey”).

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Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by UltramanGoji »

goji1986 wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 7:34 pm Also worth noting re: George Lucas and Star Wars that he has had zero control over the property for a decade now, and Lucasfilm/Disney STILL won’t do anything with the original untouched versions…even going so far as to add a second of unnecessary and untranslated Greedo dialogue in ANH when they were dropped on Disney+ in 4K (fans have dubbed the uttered word “Maclunkey”).
Maclunkey wasn't a Disney addition. It was a Lucas addition made when planning the original six films' 3D re-releases. The only one to be released was Phantom Menace.
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Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by G1985 »

UltramanGoji wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:20 pm
goji1986 wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 7:34 pm Also worth noting re: George Lucas and Star Wars that he has had zero control over the property for a decade now, and Lucasfilm/Disney STILL won’t do anything with the original untouched versions…even going so far as to add a second of unnecessary and untranslated Greedo dialogue in ANH when they were dropped on Disney+ in 4K (fans have dubbed the uttered word “Maclunkey”).
Maclunkey wasn't a Disney addition. It was a Lucas addition made when planning the original six films' 3D re-releases. The only one to be released was Phantom Menace.
In every release, LucasArts / Disney has added some kind of alteration that wasn't present in earlier releases e.g. if Greedo doesn't say "Maclunky!" then you know you're not watching the 4K streaming / physical media version. I've read interviews with a pre-Disney LucasArts where they said changes were made as a traceable way to spot which production houses had leaked video source files to bootleggers.

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Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

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G1985 wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 8:25 pm
UltramanGoji wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:20 pm
goji1986 wrote: Sat May 07, 2022 7:34 pm Also worth noting re: George Lucas and Star Wars that he has had zero control over the property for a decade now, and Lucasfilm/Disney STILL won’t do anything with the original untouched versions…even going so far as to add a second of unnecessary and untranslated Greedo dialogue in ANH when they were dropped on Disney+ in 4K (fans have dubbed the uttered word “Maclunkey”).
Maclunkey wasn't a Disney addition. It was a Lucas addition made when planning the original six films' 3D re-releases. The only one to be released was Phantom Menace.
In every release, LucasArts / Disney has added some kind of alteration that wasn't present in earlier releases e.g. if Greedo doesn't say "Maclunky!" then you know you're not watching the 4K streaming / physical media version. I've read interviews with a pre-Disney LucasArts where they said changes were made as a traceable way to spot which production houses had leaked video source files to bootleggers.
That's very interesting. How many of these were done, and is it exclusive to Episodes 4, 5 and 6?

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Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

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mikelcho wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:18 pm
G1985 wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 8:25 pm
UltramanGoji wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 7:20 pm

Maclunkey wasn't a Disney addition. It was a Lucas addition made when planning the original six films' 3D re-releases. The only one to be released was Phantom Menace.
In every release, LucasArts / Disney has added some kind of alteration that wasn't present in earlier releases e.g. if Greedo doesn't say "Maclunky!" then you know you're not watching the 4K streaming / physical media version. I've read interviews with a pre-Disney LucasArts where they said changes were made as a traceable way to spot which production houses had leaked video source files to bootleggers.
That's very interesting. How many of these were done, and is it exclusive to Episodes 4, 5 and 6?
Goes all the way back to the "Special Editions" which were the first time any version appeared on DVD back in 2004. Compare Han's CGI-generated dodging of Greedo's shot between the DVD, Blu-ray, and 4K editions and you'll see what I mean.

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Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by canofhumdingers »

There’s been so many versions of the “original” trilogy that it’s hard to keep up with. The times really major changes were made would be the 1997 Special Edition, the first DVD release, the first Blu Ray release, and the Disney Plus/4K UHD release. But theres more changes (such at Star Wars having “episode IV: A New Hope” added to the crawl in 1981 and ESB having some minor edits to the ending after its first few prints were premiered in 1980)

For the remaining films, The Phantom Menace has never had its theatrical version available on home video. I believe Attack of the Clones and The Force Awakens each have some minor changes from the theatrical release. For the rest of the films I believe they are unchanged but I’m not certain.

But really all this should be in the Star Wars thread at this point.

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G1985 wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:41 pm
mikelcho wrote: Mon May 09, 2022 12:18 pm
G1985 wrote: Sun May 08, 2022 8:25 pm

In every release, LucasArts / Disney has added some kind of alteration that wasn't present in earlier releases e.g. if Greedo doesn't say "Maclunky!" then you know you're not watching the 4K streaming / physical media version. I've read interviews with a pre-Disney LucasArts where they said changes were made as a traceable way to spot which production houses had leaked video source files to bootleggers.
That's very interesting. How many of these were done, and is it exclusive to Episodes 4, 5 and 6?
Goes all the way back to the "Special Editions" which were the first time any version appeared on DVD back in 2004. Compare Han's CGI-generated dodging of Greedo's shot between the DVD, Blu-ray, and 4K editions and you'll see what I mean.
The special editions were theatrical releases for the 20th anniversary in 1997. The dvd in 2005 was based on this version but with additional changes.

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Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

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How can the OT be in 4K? The computer effects used on his Lucas Cut were made and edited on lower than 2K technology.
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Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by canofhumdingers »

I’m gonna quote you and answer that over in the Star Wars thread in general discussion.

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Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

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As a bit of a refrain, is the following the current list of films that are confirmed to be given/to get the 4K restoration treatment?
Godzilla
Rodan
Mothra
King Kong vs Godzilla
Mothra vs Godzilla
Ghidorah, The Three Headed Monster
Invasion of Astro Monster
Godzilla vs Hedorah
Godzilla vs Biollante

I'm going off of memory there, but is that the list of Godzilla/Godzilla related films to this point? There have been no further announcements or confirmations of other films?
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Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by MONSTER MANIC »

shadowgigan wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:17 pm Is there any point of viewing the 4K masters on my non 4K laptop?
Well, the color grading is better, and you're still going to get more detail on it as it was more professionally restored.

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Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

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Chrispy_G wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 12:17 pm As a bit of a refrain, is the following the current list of films that are confirmed to be given/to get the 4K restoration treatment?
Godzilla
Rodan
Mothra
King Kong vs Godzilla
Mothra vs Godzilla
Ghidorah, The Three Headed Monster
Invasion of Astro Monster
Godzilla vs Hedorah
Godzilla vs Biollante

I'm going off of memory there, but is that the list of Godzilla/Godzilla related films to this point? There have been no further announcements or confirmations of other films?
Frankenstein vs. Baragon is the latest addition.
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Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by John Schuermann »

And Matango.

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shadowgigan wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 4:17 pm Is there any point of viewing the 4K masters on my non 4K laptop?
Absolutely. Color contrast clarity are all obviously better - resolution's only a small part of the story.

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Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by canofhumdingers »

Destroy All Monsters was one of the “first 8” to get the 4K treatment.

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Re: Toho's Godzilla 4K Restoration Project

Post by Chrispy_G »

Thank you all! I'll go ahead and lay out the timeline of films below then, for any newcomers to the thread

Godzilla/Toho Kaiju 4K Restoration List
Godzilla
Rodan
Mothra
King Kong vs Godzilla
Mothra vs Godzilla
Matango
Ghidorah, the Three Headed Monster
Frankenstein vs Baragon
Invasion of Astro-Monster
Destroy All Monsters
Godzilla vs Hedorah
Godzilla vs Biollante

Maybe the OP can continue to be revised as well?
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