Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

[eabaker]

And also, maybe GvKG should have done a better job at showing that metaphor about capitalism and had the characters responsible act with more guilt then “well shit”.

The movie is not subtle about its metaphor, and Shindo ends up essentially committing suicide by way of the new Godzilla he's created.

EDIT: Sorry, should have read Teresawa's reply first, as he said it a lot better than I did.

[GodzillavsRayquaza]

The entire scene with Fujio, Shindo, et al. in the Teiyo boardroom is all about how out of control Shindo is because his enterprise controls nuclear weapons. Following that are several scenes where other characters (namely Terasawa and Emmy) comment on Shindo's/Teiyo's monstrous greed.

As to your last point, uh... Shindo allows himself killed by Godzilla. He realizes the grave mistake he made with the nuke and commits seppuku via kaiju.

The scene with Shindo and Godzilla is super up to interpretation, and can mean any number of things. It seems more likely to me that he’s guilty about leaving Godzillasaurus behind than anything to do with the nukes, given his whole character arc being related to Godzillasaurus.

[Terasawa]

"It seems more likely to me"

What if it's not a matter of either-or? He can feel guilt for leaving the dinosaur behind (which he establishes in the farewell speech in 1944) just as much as he can acknowledge his colossal screw up in the present. Shindo's death is ostensibly supposed to be the last hint of his misplaced faith in Godzilla, but I suggest it means more than just that.

Shindo achieved his goals when Godzilla defeated the Futurians. One would expect him to show tremendous joy. Instead, we get this:



This is the last we see of Shindo before his death. It's his reaction after King Ghidorah has been destroyed, after Wilson and Prof. Mazaki separately note that Godzilla will destroy Japan, immediately after Dobashi criticizes Shindo's hubris. ("Is this your savior, Mr. Shindo?")

Would it make any dramatic sense for this shot to imply that he's now feeling guilty for having left the dinosaur alone to die on Lagos? Or would you concede that, by the placement of this shot in the narrative, the implication is that he's disturbed by something more recent?

Although obviously he couldn't have known Wilson's nor Dobashi's comments, that doesn't matter. What matters is that the viewer is aware of those comments and can use them to frame Shindo's expression. (A lesser script would have given us some exposition instead, perhaps by having Shindo voice his guilt.) The purpose of this shot in the film is at the very least to establish that Shindo's faith in his savior is now shaken. It's no great leap to assume that, because he now doubts his faith, he should also question his decisions and actions which led to the supercharging of Godzilla. After all, as has also been established, this Godzilla is far more powerful and destructive because it feasted on Shindo's sub.

Regarding his death scene, Shindo never expresses verbal guilt for leaving the dinosaur behind (this is only spoken by him at Lagos in 1944). He comments that he should have died on Lagos had it not been for the dinosaur. (He still can't accept that the dinosaur/Godzilla did not intentionally save him.) He notes that his survival allowed him to rebuild Japan (which includes his corrupt corporate empire), and he reflects on the irony that the dinosaur that saved him is now destroying his decades of work. That's all he (verbally) says in his final scene.

Perhaps you might get the idea that his last scene is supposed to show Shindo has lost touch with reality. I don't think so. Dobashi reminds him that Godzilla is heading his way, to which he replies "I know. This is how I want it. Let me have it my way." These are the words of a man who's accepted his failure and is preparing for his death. Japanese viewers probably would have understood this better than anyone else, what with the Japanese attitudes toward suicide in relation to great shame and failure (especially in business). So again, why should he feel this way? Because he helped kick off Godzilla's latest tour of destruction by using his own privately-owned nuclear weapons. But you're right, too, his suicide is not motivated by that alone.

[GodzillavsRayquaza]

^ Good and fair points. I can’t really think of anything to say in argument.

[Spuro]

Shindo's reawakening of Godzilla wasn't a mistake at all, though. That's what always gets me regarding certain readings of this movie. Ghidorah and the Futurians were a far, FAR worse alternative. If Godzilla hadn't been reawakened then Japan would be in a far worse state.

Godzilla has no reason to destroy Japan, after all. He only cares about feeding on nuclear energy, as we saw in the last two movies. Yes, he's destructive, but he doesn't actively seek to annihilate the country's economic structure as the Futurians do.

Godzilla, and by extension nuclear power, is treated as a necessary evil in this movie. Because, as this movie argues, the alternative is worse.

[Terasawa]

Shindo's reawakening of Godzilla wasn't a mistake at all, though. That's what always gets me regarding certain readings of this movie. Ghidorah and the Futurians were a far, FAR worse alternative. If Godzilla hadn't been reawakened then Japan would be in a far worse state.

Godzilla has no reason to destroy Japan, after all. He only cares about feeding on nuclear energy, as we saw in the last two movies. Yes, he's destructive, but he doesn't actively seek to annihilate the country's economic structure as the Futurians do.

Godzilla, and by extension nuclear power, is treated as a necessary evil in this movie. Because, as this movie argues, the alternative is worse.

Godzilla had already been reawakened. This is why Emmy and Terasawa try to meet with the government to stop the operation (M11 prevents this by stealing Emmy away). Shindo's sub only further mutated him. There was probably no reason to send the sub since Godzilla was already strolling around the Bering Sea/North Pacific. (Although we don't know how the pre-supercharge Godzilla would have fared against Ghidorah.)

Furthermore, Wilson describes this version of Godzilla as far more powerful and destructive, and he's quite right that Godzilla will destroy Japan. Godzilla's rampage at the end of this film extends from Sapporo to Tokyo. If Godzilla was only interested in feeding then why did he venture 700+ miles on land to Tokyo? Additionally, the final battle takes place in Shinjuku, probably the "city" in Japan that then best represented Japanese capitalism. Like Godzilla in this film, Shinjuku's fantastic growth occurred after WWII. Omori is using Godzilla as a metaphor for the dangerous, explosive ascent of Japan as a capitalist power after the war.

Anyway, Ghidorah is created by the same nuclear blast at Bikini that created Godzilla (pre-timeline shenanigans). So no, I don't think the movie is saying nuclear power is a necessary evil, not at all.

[darthzilla99]

Anyway, Ghidorah is created by the same nuclear blast at Bikini that created Godzilla (pre-timeline shenanigans). So no, I don't think the movie is saying nuclear power is a necessary evil, not at all.

Maybe not intentionally, but the climax of the film is essentially taking a nuclear origin based weapon (Ghidorah) to solve another nuclear based obstacle (Godzilla), even if the former is modified with non-nuclear means (23rd century non-nuclear based technology). Here's what we we have with the narration and plot:

Future one: a non-nuclear based future leads to Japan to become a tyrannical capitalistic super-power. To counter this, the nations of the future use time travel and create their own living nuclear weapon to prevent this dark future while attempting to eliminate another potential nuclear based obstacle (Godzilla). This potentially leads Japan into future slavery. To counter this, Japan attempt to use their own nuclear weapon (recharge Godzilla) to save themselves. Meanwhile, a few individuals in the background are attempting a non-nuclear solution (sabotage the computer that controls Ghidorah). This all leads to solving the first obstacle with some reckless results and getting into a new problem where Japan will be completely annihilated.

Future two: Emmy goes to the future again and begs to essentially use the first living nuclear weapon (Ghidorah) to save Japan. Her pleas are refused at first because the argument is that Japan doesn't deserve to live because of it's hubris and tyranny. She begs for Japan to be given another chance at redemption. She gets the go ahead to use Ghidorah to stop Godzilla. The ending is that it seems she succeeds until you see Godzilla wake up in the ocean floor.

Ignoring what it's sequels did, the narration leads you a choice of 2 endings essentially:
Ending 1: If you choose to say Mecha-king Ghidorah was a success and Godzilla left Japan alone from that point, than the narrative is saying Nuclear weapons are unstable but a necessary evil and step to get to the most positive outcome as without nuclear weapons you end up with tyranny (Japan becoming a super-power).

Ending 2: If you choose to Mecha-King Ghidorah failed and Godzilla destroys Japan anyways, then the narration is nihilistic and as such it doesn't matter if you have nuclear power or not. Humanity (or Japan) is just irredeemable as your choices are either extinction or tyranny.

If the narration intended that nuclear power is evil no matter what circumstance, then either Ghidorah should have been created by non-nuclear means or Emmy makes a weapon to fight Godzilla without using any part of Ghidorah whatsoever.

[Terasawa]

While all that seems correct, I still don't think Kazuki Omori was trying to address nuclear power in the film after Godzilla appears in Hokkaido (pre-KG battle). The nuclear subtext is pretty much discarded for the entire climax.

Furthermore, I don't think Omori is trying to use Ghidorah to say anything about nuclear weapons. Ghidorah is born of nukes because a) Omori has to temporarily get rid of Godzilla, which he does by placing the Dorats on Lagos, and b) it's a convenient way of quickly explaining an enormous mutated creature. (Seriously, all the detractors complain about how convoluted the plot already is; is there really any reason to give Ghidorah a different origin which requires even more exposition?) Ghidorah is not intended to be an analogue for nuclear energy.

And thanks for giving me another reason to watch and analyze GvKG.

[darthzilla99]

(Seriously, all the detractors complain about how convoluted the plot already is; is there really any reason to give Ghidorah a different origin which requires even more exposition?)

If you try to end narration on a subject in the middle of the story or movie and move on to a different subject, that new subject in the same story or movie can accidentally weaken, contradict, or even change the previous subject and stance to your audience. In this case, by making Ghidorah's origin a nuclear mutation like Godzilla, and Ghidorah used later in the film to save Japan, even if the roles were reversed to begin with, your accidentally contradicting your first subject point if you don't provide an alternative that fits in the earlier narration subject.

If you gave Ghidorah a different orgin, while it might add more exposition, the payoff would have been making the anti-nuclear narrative stronger. Or they could have just made Mecha-King Ghidorah a completely new different character from King Ghidorah (like the Hyper Mecha-King Ghidorah toy) that is made as a completely 23rd century technology robot instead of a cyborg based body with the original King Ghidorah. At that point, the narration is presenting how riding ourselves of nuclear power is a better alternative.

[LSD Jellyfish]

I always saw MKG as just a physical embodiment of Emmy embracing a new identity. Through Shindo, there’s a clear narrative of old imperial japan, Terasawa and modern japan, and Emmy with the future.

Godzilla is clearly a nuclear symbol, but he’s also representative of Japanese nationalism, and I think that’s abundantly clear in the film with the pacific war imagery and then it all backfiring with Shindo’s loyalty to imperial japan/Godzilla meaning nothing.

Ghidorah and the Futurians represent a vague outside threat, not unlike all the stuff in the showa era. Remember that Ghidorah really is just there to fight Godzilla and sell tickets, so I don’t think there’s any big significance to him.

MKG Is just Emmy coming to grips with everything, and working with the people from the future to save everyone. A nice sort of embrace of Japanese tech egoism and globilization, sort of showing 90s japan was stronger than shitty imperial in japan and had grown into its own thing.

I don’t think Ghidorah is specific to any of this or is a nuclear symbol.

[eabaker]

(Seriously, all the detractors complain about how convoluted the plot already is; is there really any reason to give Ghidorah a different origin which requires even more exposition?)

If you try to end narration on a subject in the middle of the story or movie and move on to a different subject, that new subject in the same story or movie can accidentally weaken, contradict, or even change the previous subject and stance to your audience. In this case, by making Ghidorah's origin a nuclear mutation like Godzilla, and Ghidorah used later in the film to save Japan, even if the roles were reversed to begin with, your accidentally contradicting your first subject point if you don't provide an alternative that fits in the earlier narration subject.

If you gave Ghidorah a different orgin, while it might add more exposition, the payoff would have been making the anti-nuclear narrative stronger. Or they could have just made Mecha-King Ghidorah a completely new different character from King Ghidorah (like the Hyper Mecha-King Ghidorah toy) that is made as a completely 23rd century technology robot instead of a cyborg based body with the original King Ghidorah. At that point, the narration is presenting how riding ourselves of nuclear power is a better alternative.

There is no point, though, where GvsKG is predominately an anti-nuclear movie. It is always first and foremost a commentary on the development and economic direction of post-war Japan. The major thematic significance of nuclear weapons is the objection to a Japanese financial concern being in possession of those weapons, not to their existing in the world at all.

[Terasawa]

Thought this was kinda neat: this shot of Megumi Odaka and Katsuhiko Sasaki in "Hokkaido" following Ghidorah's defeat was actually photographed on the roof of some Toho building. (The blue-roofed building was the giveaway.)



Here's the studio from practically the same angle just a few years later for the "Godzilla vs. Destoroyah Document Special".



I also like this shot which was taken from the same roof (looking another direction, of course).

[LSD Jellyfish]

Thought this was kinda neat: this shot of Megumi Odaka and Katsuhiko Sasaki in "Hokkaido" following Ghidorah's defeat was actually photographed on the roof of some Toho building. (The blue-roofed building was the giveaway.)

https://i.imgur.com/CnpLoEY

Here's the studio from practically the same angle just a few years later for the "Godzilla vs. Destoroyah Document Special".

https://i.imgur.com/Sop52qt.png

I also like this shot which was taken from the same roof (looking another direction, of course).

I'm not sure if that ruins things for me, or is cool. I would've never questioned that until you pointed it out.

[edgaguirus]

It's little details like this that make the films more interesting. You wonder what other surprises might be before your eyes that you've seen who knows how many times but never gave any thought.

[H-Man]

Rewatched this last night.

I used to own a subbed version put out by Revok (a Canadian company) back in the late 90s. I haven't seen it in years, so certain details in the dialog have since been forgotten by me. But the Brazilian DVD I own has the Tri-Star dub and man...Emi Kano's motivations are practically nonsensical here. She willingly leaves the Dorats in 1944 knowing full well what would happen, and then looks utterly horrified. When she confronts Wilson about it, she says, "You told me we were coming back to warn them," but in the next scene, tells Terasawa that everything she'd said about warning Japan about Godzilla was a lie--which she'd have the benefit of knowing.

I can only surmise that Wilson had told her that they'd make Ghidorah and threaten to use him, so she felt betrayed when Ghidorah actually destroyed Kyushu. I dunno...the dubbing really makes things fuzzy in that regard.

EDIT: I didn't read the past few pages where the subject was brought up before posting this. Sorry.

[Spuro]

Rewatched this last night.

I used to own a subbed version put out by Revok (a Canadian company) back in the late 90s. I haven't seen it in years, so certain details in the dialog have since been forgotten by me. But the Brazilian DVD I own has the Tri-Star dub and man...Emi Kano's motivations are practically nonsensical here. She willingly leaves the Dorats in 1944 knowing full well what would happen, and then looks utterly horrified. When she confronts Wilson about it, she says, "You told me we were coming back to warn them," but in the next scene, tells Terasawa that everything she'd said about warning Japan about Godzilla was a lie--which she'd have the benefit of knowing.

I can only surmise that Wilson had told her that they'd make Ghidorah and threaten to use him, so she felt betrayed when Ghidorah actually destroyed Kyushu. I dunno...the dubbing really makes things fuzzy in that regard.

I don't think it can be blamed entirely on the dubbing. I honestly believe Godzilla vs King Ghidorah is the worst written Godzilla film.* Emi is just one of the many reasons.



*Not the worst Godzilla film, before you all jump me. The likes of Spacegodzilla and Megalon and Final Wars are obviously worse.

[edgaguirus]

Confusing dubbing is one reason I prefer subtitles.

The script for this one is not the best, but it's not too bad. The surmise about the the three headed threat does make sense, but making Emi's motivations more clear aren't that important to the story. All they needed was her to turn to her country's side and make a cyborg that would fight Godzilla.

[shadowgigan]

My head-canon has somehow made this film coherent, except for Emi's motivations. Perhaps she was just incredibly naïve and idealistic.

[SoggyNoodles2016]

Emi's motivations make perfect sense. She knew they were going to use Ghidorah to threaten Japan into avoiding becoming the massive conglomerate of their time. However, based on her reaction to seeing Ghidorah razing Fukuoka that she thought Wilson and Glen meant EMPTY threats, not actually destroying the city. So, she immediately switched to the other side the minute it became clear it was a much more hostile plan.

[Spuro]

Uh... if it's true that Emi thought they stole an expensive time machine, traveled back to the past twice (Why twice??? They didn't have to pick up the protagonists from modern day Japan!), and created a new giant monster under their control just to make empty threats... I'm sorry but that's either bad writing or proof of Emi's stupidity.

God, this movie.