Toho Kingdom

Posted: **Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:52 pm**

ShinGojira14 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:59 pm This movie and Godzilla: King of the Monsters both have the same thing in common:

They're both terrible movies that try and fail spectacularly at an environmental message, have really cool monsters and special effects, good music, lame human characters that could've been something good had they been handled by better writers, and have absolutely no idea what they want to be.

The only thing GvM has over KoTM is that when the monster fights happen, they actually damn show it—even if it is mostly just Koichi Kawakita's beam spamming.

How would you handle an environmental message in a movie, let alone with Godzilla in it?

Posted: **Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:35 pm**

An environmental Godzilla film needs to link the kaiju and issue well. Hedorah does this successfully. The kaiju is a direct consequence of pollution and requires a force outside of man to handle it. Battra as a punishment for pollution and environmental damage could work, but that idea gets lost in the plot.

Posted: **Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:19 pm**

edgaguirus wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:35 pm An environmental Godzilla film needs to link the kaiju and issue well. Hedorah does this successfully. The kaiju is a direct consequence of pollution and requires a force outside of man to handle it. Battra as a punishment for pollution and environmental damage could work, but that idea gets lost in the plot.

Could you elaborate further as to how Hedorah succeeded while this movie and KOTM failed?

Posted: **Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:34 pm**

He really needs to elaborate further?

Posted: **Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:18 pm**

^I'm just curious where exactly one succeeds where the other two fail.

Posted: **Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:46 pm**

The plot of this movie is dependant on an asteroid/meteor coming to hit Earth. In fact, nothing from the movie's plot at all has to do with the supposed environmental message. One could could put in an anti-smoking message and it would be as relevant as the environmental "message" in this film.

In KotM, the plot is dependant on a terrorist group wanting to release the Titans. An actual environmental message would have been better implemented if they ditched the terrorist angle, and instead just had Ghidorah in the North Pole, with his prison having nearly melted away due to the effects of climate change rather than just having a terrorist group awaken him. As it stands, the terrorists could have been neo-Nazis who wanted to use Ghidorah to destroy every non-white area on the planet and it would be basically the same movie. Environmentalism is only present in tiny amounts of dialogue rather than actually contributing to the story.

Compare both of these to Hedorah, and it should be completely obvious what the difference is. At every point in the movie, the problems are caused by pollution. Hedorah is literally born from and made out of pollution, gets stronger with more of it and constantly seeks out more pollution from factories and whatnot to further grow and cause more problems for the world. It's to the point where I have even seen some people call it a jackhammering the message into one's skull, but it at least completely ties in the message it tries to convey into the actual plot rather than mentioning the message offhand and never making any effort to make the message an actual message instead of a random comment.

Posted: **Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:48 pm**

^And how did Torahata and Kumayama work with the message of the original MvG?

Posted: **Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:12 am**

LegendZilla wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:48 pm ^And how did Torahata and Kumayama work with the message of the original MvG?

The core theme in Mothra vs. Godzilla has nothing to do with environmental destruction, it's a classic story of good vs. evil - among both humans and monsters - and how small acts of selfishness can have devastating consequences. Torahata and Kumayama buy the egg, refuse to return it to Mothra out of greed, screw over the fishermen who pulled it from the bay in the first place, and are then punished for their misdeeds when Godzilla's rampage causes their big, expensive, ill-gotten tourist attraction to fail. This prompts them to fight to the death over Torahata's money, which is completely fruitless because Godzilla destroys the hotel moments later.

Torahata and Kumayama are villains of the "petty evil" variety. They act out of selfish avarice and their refusal to return Mothra's egg (unwittingly) jeopardizes all of Japan. Because they swatted the olive branch right our of the Shobijin's hands, the people of Japan have no one to call upon for aid when Godzilla turns up. It takes our protagonists venturing to the island and pleading for mercy to win Mothra's assistance, by which point Godzilla has already presumably killed thousands of people.

Godzilla is presented as a "greater evil" to the "petty evil" of the two human baddies. As Junko lays out clearly in her plea to the Infant Islanders, Godzilla is a destructive force that annihilates both the deserving and the undeserving without remorse. Torahata and Kumayama deserved their comeuppance; the innocent schoolchildren he threatens moments later do not.

So yeah, Torahata and Kumayama are very much wrapped up in that film's message by showing how lesser acts of evil can pave the way for greater forces of evil, a message that is still very relevant today. If this 1992 pseudo-remake intended on conveying similar themes via the Marutomo Company, it failed to do so in any way that was meaningful and what we're left with is the half-baked environmental message that holds no weight.

Posted: **Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:31 am**

Love your posts, HedorahIsBestGirl. With Evan sadly passed and with Terasawa having left (from the looks of it at least), your comments have become something I really look forward to.

Posted: **Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:43 am**

It's funny how this film's portrayal of an aggressive capitalist villain falls flat compared to Shindo in the previous film, both written by Omori. The dude from Godzilla vs Mothra 92 (can't even remember his name atm) is just a cartoon character pretty much.

Posted: **Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:53 am**

Legion1979 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:31 am Love your posts, HedorahIsBestGirl. With Evan sadly passed and with Terasawa having left (from the looks of it at least), your comments have become something I really look forward to.

Thank you, I really appreciate that! I'm still very sad about Evan and I've noticed Terasawa hasn't been around since I came back. Those guys were like the heart and soul of TK. I hope Terasawa comes back some day.

Added in 6 minutes 15 seconds:

Major sssspielberg! wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:43 am It's funny how this film's portrayal of an aggressive capitalist villain falls flat compared to Shindo in the previous film, both written by Omori. The dude from Godzilla vs Mothra 92 (can't even remember his name atm) is just a cartoon character pretty much.

Just goes to show how every great writer has hits and misses. I wouldn't even call Shindo a villain, he was a complex character and arguably the best part of GvKG. I'm also blanking on the name of GvM's human villain (and I watched this movie last week) but yeah, he's like a Torahata/Tako wannabe who lacks the charisma that made them both memorable. I'm inclined to say Battra is the only memorable aspect of this movie.

Posted: **Mon Nov 28, 2022 11:48 am**

Major sssspielberg! wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:43 am It's funny how this film's portrayal of an aggressive capitalist villain falls flat compared to Shindo in the previous film, both written by Omori. The dude from Godzilla vs Mothra 92 (can't even remember his name atm) is just a cartoon character pretty much.

It's because from top to bottom GvsKG is trying to tackle things that are brand new to this series while GvsM is just everyone checking off boxes from the "Mothra's Greatest Hits" playlist.

Posted: **Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:39 pm**

I think it's safe to say Omori was more in the zone writing/directing. I think if he'd been directing there'd be more thematic weight to the story. And I don't necessarily think GvM is bad, either. It's grown on me over the years. There's room for both light and heavy fare in the Godzilla franchise, as we all know. And the fact that GvM is one of the biggest contemporary box office hauls since the 60s really shows that sometimes that's what people want.
I do wonder how it would have turned out with Omori at the helm in lieu of Okawara though. Perhaps the final product would have been a little less Saturday morning cartoon?
I could see Shindo's role in GvsKG being a lot more two-dimensional with the same script under a director like Okawara (and also if he wasn't played by Tsuchiya who was such a fucking marvel)

Posted: **Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:42 pm**

HedorahIsBestGirl wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:12 am
LegendZilla wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:48 pm ^And how did Torahata and Kumayama work with the message of the original MvG?
The core theme in Mothra vs. Godzilla has nothing to do with environmental destruction, it's a classic story of good vs. evil - among both humans and monsters - and how small acts of selfishness can have devastating consequences. Torahata and Kumayama buy the egg, refuse to return it to Mothra out of greed, screw over the fishermen who pulled it from the bay in the first place, and are then punished for their misdeeds when Godzilla's rampage causes their big, expensive, ill-gotten tourist attraction to fail. This prompts them to fight to the death over Torahata's money, which is completely fruitless because Godzilla destroys the hotel moments later.

Torahata and Kumayama are villains of the "petty evil" variety. They act out of selfish avarice and their refusal to return Mothra's egg (unwittingly) jeopardizes all of Japan. Because they swatted the olive branch right our of the Shobijin's hands, the people of Japan have no one to call upon for aid when Godzilla turns up. It takes our protagonists venturing to the island and pleading for mercy to win Mothra's assistance, by which point Godzilla has already presumably killed thousands of people.

Godzilla is presented as a "greater evil" to the "petty evil" of the two human baddies. As Junko lays out clearly in her plea to the Infant Islanders, Godzilla is a destructive force that annihilates both the deserving and the undeserving without remorse. Torahata and Kumayama deserved their comeuppance; the innocent schoolchildren he threatens moments later do not.

So yeah, Torahata and Kumayama are very much wrapped up in that film's message by showing how lesser acts of evil can pave the way for greater forces of evil, a message that is still very relevant today. If this 1992 pseudo-remake intended on conveying similar themes via the Marutomo Company, it failed to do so in any way that was meaningful and what we're left with is the half-baked environmental message that holds no weight.

You can argue that the themes regarding environmental destruction was still there, as evident by the state of Infant Island. I do see where you're coming from though.

Posted: **Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:36 pm**

LegendZilla wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 5:42 pm
HedorahIsBestGirl wrote: ↑Mon Nov 28, 2022 10:12 am
LegendZilla wrote: ↑Sun Nov 27, 2022 11:48 pm ^And how did Torahata and Kumayama work with the message of the original MvG?
The core theme in Mothra vs. Godzilla has nothing to do with environmental destruction, it's a classic story of good vs. evil - among both humans and monsters - and how small acts of selfishness can have devastating consequences. Torahata and Kumayama buy the egg, refuse to return it to Mothra out of greed, screw over the fishermen who pulled it from the bay in the first place, and are then punished for their misdeeds when Godzilla's rampage causes their big, expensive, ill-gotten tourist attraction to fail. This prompts them to fight to the death over Torahata's money, which is completely fruitless because Godzilla destroys the hotel moments later.

Torahata and Kumayama are villains of the "petty evil" variety. They act out of selfish avarice and their refusal to return Mothra's egg (unwittingly) jeopardizes all of Japan. Because they swatted the olive branch right our of the Shobijin's hands, the people of Japan have no one to call upon for aid when Godzilla turns up. It takes our protagonists venturing to the island and pleading for mercy to win Mothra's assistance, by which point Godzilla has already presumably killed thousands of people.

Godzilla is presented as a "greater evil" to the "petty evil" of the two human baddies. As Junko lays out clearly in her plea to the Infant Islanders, Godzilla is a destructive force that annihilates both the deserving and the undeserving without remorse. Torahata and Kumayama deserved their comeuppance; the innocent schoolchildren he threatens moments later do not.

So yeah, Torahata and Kumayama are very much wrapped up in that film's message by showing how lesser acts of evil can pave the way for greater forces of evil, a message that is still very relevant today. If this 1992 pseudo-remake intended on conveying similar themes via the Marutomo Company, it failed to do so in any way that was meaningful and what we're left with is the half-baked environmental message that holds no weight.
You can argue that the themes regarding environmental destruction was still there, as evident by the state of Infant Island. I do see where you're coming from though.

No they weren't. That "destruction" was nothing more than a natural landslide, and the movie was too dumb to tell the difference.

Take that and compare it with the state of Infant Island in Mothra vs Godzilla, and the difference is night and day.
Resized Image

Posted: **Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:59 pm**

LegendZilla wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:19 pm
edgaguirus wrote: ↑Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:35 pm An environmental Godzilla film needs to link the kaiju and issue well. Hedorah does this successfully. The kaiju is a direct consequence of pollution and requires a force outside of man to handle it. Battra as a punishment for pollution and environmental damage could work, but that idea gets lost in the plot.
Could you elaborate further as to how Hedorah succeeded while this movie and KOTM failed?

I would have responded sooner, but I've been ill lately.

Hedroah succeeds for the reasons others have stated; Pollution is the genesis of Hedorah, and its source of power. If the mineral hadn't mixed with that toxic sludge and garbage, then there would be no smog monster. Hedroah is a creation of man, and this melds with the environmental message. Pollution, like Hedorah, is a growing and difficult problem to handle, but can be cleaned up if we can work together. Hence having Godzilla and human technology being the only way to end Hedorah.

G vs M and KOTM tries to bring in an environmental theme, but the theme is hard to see through the other events going on. G vs M uses a meteor rather than the deforestation as a catalyst for Battra and Godzilla waking. Battra's punishment of man is hardly there except for the one scene, and then Battra spends the rest of its scenes in fighting other monsters. It's an antagonist for Mothra and Godzilla rather than an earth warrior. With all the other characters and plot lines, the environmental message is well hidden. KOTM buries it even more in a plot about a kaiju apocalypse. It's the barest of motivators in a film that is more concerned with family drama and monster action. The plot is far more interested in figuring out how to stop Ghidorah and save Godzilla.

Posted: **Thu Jul 13, 2023 8:34 am**

This is probably my least favorite of the Heisei Series. This is one I always remember falling asleep watching when I was a kid....It also feels like it's a side story in the Heisei Series as the next film (Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II) picks up where Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah left off. Although I guess you could say it pays off in Godzilla vs. Spacegodzilla...Godzilla isn't really that important to the plot and is just there for Mothra and Battra to fight something. Battra is cool but I feel like it would've been better had he been the main antagonist (Kinda like how IDW portrayed him in Kingdom of Monsters and Rulers of Earth) Akira Ifukube's score is great though

Posted: **Thu Jul 13, 2023 9:58 pm**

I consider a lesser film as well, but it does have a few scenes that are interesting. Godzilla emerging from the volcano is one of them.

Posted: **Sun Jul 16, 2023 7:58 am**

Looking back, it is strange that an Environmental narrative driven movie happens because a meteorite hits earth. I think the movie should have opened showing deforestation, construction, and geological destruction causing chain reactions around the world that wakes up Godzilla and releases Mothra's egg. Also show Battra attacking only in response to pollution dumping from industrial complex or urban development.

Posted: **Sun Jul 16, 2023 8:12 am**

This movie doesn't know that the hell it's doing with its messages. It was only doing this stuff because Honda's films did it, but they know how to be smart about it. Godzilla VS Mothra's message is just obnoxious.

Toho Kingdom

Talkback Thread #19: Godzilla vs. Mothra (1992)

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