Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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Legion1979 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:56 am
godjacob wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:12 am
eabaker wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:35 am

Well, at the very least, if you were to to take away the Matrix and action film elements, you'd be left with a very brief highlight reel featuring the old friends and enemies of Godzilla.
Still more screen time than the monsters got in Destroy All Monsters.
Oh lord...

First off, Final Wars is a much longer movie than Destroy all Monsters and features more monsters. Secondly, the Tokyo attack and final Mt Fuji battle in DAM are easily better and LONGER effects sequences than anything in FW, regardless of monster screen time.
With most monsters in those sequences not doing much of anything. Pretty sure half the monsters on Mt. Fuji just stood around during that sequence and I'm sorry but that isn't enough to wow me.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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godjacob wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:07 am
Legion1979 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:56 am
godjacob wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:12 am

Still more screen time than the monsters got in Destroy All Monsters.
Oh lord...

First off, Final Wars is a much longer movie than Destroy all Monsters and features more monsters. Secondly, the Tokyo attack and final Mt Fuji battle in DAM are easily better and LONGER effects sequences than anything in FW, regardless of monster screen time.
With most monsters in those sequences not doing much of anything. Pretty sure half the monsters on Mt. Fuji just stood around during that sequence and I'm sorry but that isn't enough to wow me.
It's possible to criticize (or praise!) both DAM and GFW. It's not an either/or. This is meaningless whataboutism.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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eabaker wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:14 am
godjacob wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:07 am
Legion1979 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 9:56 am

Oh lord...

First off, Final Wars is a much longer movie than Destroy all Monsters and features more monsters. Secondly, the Tokyo attack and final Mt Fuji battle in DAM are easily better and LONGER effects sequences than anything in FW, regardless of monster screen time.
With most monsters in those sequences not doing much of anything. Pretty sure half the monsters on Mt. Fuji just stood around during that sequence and I'm sorry but that isn't enough to wow me.
It's possible to criticize (or praise!) both DAM and GFW. It's not an either/or. This is meaningless whataboutism.
I only bring up DAM because it is often lauded as one of the best Showa flicks and I find GFW to be the stronger monster mash one. So the connection is intended least in my case.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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godjacob wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:01 am I only bring up DAM because it is often lauded as one of the best Showa flicks and I find GFW to be the stronger monster mash one. So the connection is intended least in my case.
I kind of agree with this. The last time I sat down to watch DAM, I was shocked at how boring it was.

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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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godjacob wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:01 am I only bring up DAM because it is often lauded as one of the best Showa flicks
YMMV of course but this has not been the case in my experience as a Godzilla fan, and certainly not at Toho Kingdom (just count the positive and negative posts in the talkback thread). Ryfle and Galbraith wrote fondly of it, but those books were published 25 years ago. Hell, Ryfle and Godziszewski spent a few minutes in their audio commentary (ten years ago) arguing that DAM is a better film than its fan reputation would suggest.

But if there is a staunchly pro-DAM community out there, I need to know where to find it.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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Terasawa wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:46 am
godjacob wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:01 am I only bring up DAM because it is often lauded as one of the best Showa flicks
YMMV of course but this has not been the case in my experience as a Godzilla fan, and certainly not at Toho Kingdom (just count the positive and negative posts in the talkback thread). Ryfle and Galbraith wrote fondly of it, but those books were published 25 years ago. Hell, Ryfle and Godziszewski spent a few minutes in their audio commentary (ten years ago) arguing that DAM is a better film than its fan reputation would suggest.

But if there is a staunchly pro-DAM community out there, I need to know where to find it.
We're out there. Every time I post about this film on my FB all my friends chime I'm about their love for it. Bring up GFW though and everyone starts picking on it. There's a reason the film was known by the tag line "The Ultimate Monster Movie" when it started airing on the Sci Fi channel in 1996. I think its a generational thing.

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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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That was Ryfle & Godziszewski's idea, but then I'm of the generation that was introduced to the film via Sci-Fi Channel / ADV (the export dub) and I've always thought I hold it in higher esteem than others my age & younger. I've been around Toho Kingdom off and on since the forums opened in 2003, and my impression over all that time was that DAM has never been even a top 10 Godzilla movie among TK's users. Even the Monster Zero forums were generally down on DAM. But again, that's my experience.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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They tried too hard to make this movie appeal to everyone. Just one trend it was trying to capitalize on was how back in the late 90's/early 2000's, action heroes wearing black leather was on the rage.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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I think whenever you are dealing with the newest/last Godzilla movie, opinions are likely to get hype-polarized and sensitive. Fans don't know if or when there will be more Godzilla films, sometimes we KNOW we are in store for a hiatus. So the final movie not being quite what we wanted can leave us particularly salty.

I felt, for the 50th anniversary film, Final Wars always felt so "Birthday Party at Chuck E Cheese" as opposed to "Retirement tribute"...it didn't feel reverent poignant enough. It felt like yet another time where Godzilla got a lot of attention and put on a 'bigger' platform internationally(people in the US were talking and covering Godzilla's 50th and the Star on the Walk of Fame and etc) that the ball gets dropped.

A Godzilla 70s film gets a particularly huge and high profile marketing campaign and a big time premiere on network TV...and its goofy and cheap Godzilla vs Megalon.

A Godzilla film finally gets made by Hollywood, by the guys behind one of the biggest movies of all time, and gets promoted and cross promoted like hell....and its a hugely unfaithful portrayal of the character with G98

Godzilla has a big 50th anniversary film that is making headlines in more ways than these films typically ever do...and its a hype stylized and over the top Final Wars.

Godzilla makes a huge Hollywood return for its 60th anniversary...and G14 becomes most notorious for how LITTLE Godzilla actually appears in the film, they cut Takarada's cameo, and they don't use Godzilla's classic themes.

It feels like we often get "Cheated" out of getting the "perfect" Godzilla film at the "perfect" time and place.

BUT time heals all wounds. Whenever a Godzilla film merges into the pantheon of "Godzilla lore and history" it just becomes another unique chapter of the past. The pressure and attention of being the 'latest entry that defines the franchise' goes away, and it is just there to be enjoyed purely on its own merits as a unique entry in the series.

Final Wars just gets to be that wild 50th anniversary bonanza that is a blender of 50 years of Godzilla films and all of the trendy American blockbusters of the time.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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The Rise of Skywalker / Jurassic World Dominion / Predator 2018 of its time

absolutely dreadful
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miguelnuva wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2024 5:47 pm With this being an Oscar for best visual effects you can also joke and say Godzilla really did win the oscar.

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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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Omegamorph wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:14 am The Rise of Skywalker / Jurassic World Dominion / Predator 2018 of its time

absolutely dreadful
I won't fight you on the last line, and I haven't seen Predator 2018, but TroS and JW:D are terrible comparisons. Objectionable or not, the director of GFW at least had some kind of vision and attempted to do anything at all with the movie. The other two were utterly soulless products only made because the studio heads demanded trilogies.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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Omegamorph wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:14 am The Rise of Skywalker / Jurassic World Dominion / Predator 2018 of its time

absolutely dreadful
It is nowhere near as bad as the Predator 2018. That movie is abominable in just about every way. TROS and Dominion are pretty uneven movies but I would say TROS is worse than Final Wars. Seriously, why would you end a trilogy like that?!

At the very least, GFW works as a fun schlocky action movie, and that’s all it tries to be: an action packed anniversary action film. It’s shallow and weird, but it’s fun, even if it’s not your cup of tea. There’s stuff to enjoy there. It’s not my absolute favorite, but I didn’t hate watching it.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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CyberZilla wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:35 pm At the very least, GFW works as a fun schlocky action movie, and that’s all it tries to be: an action packed anniversary action film.
I think that's being too fair to the film. It wasn't trying to be an anniversary film. It was trying to be THE anniversary film (the 50th, no less). It was trying to be Godzilla's final film (for the time being at least). It was also trying to be one of the biggest, most explosive, most monster-packed Godzilla films ever. It had a gigantic budget. There were multiple filming locations outside of Japan. It brought in American composers, rock groups, actors and main title designers. It was Kitamura's attempt to break into the international market. It got a red carpet premiere in Hollywood for crying out loud. Can you really say the film "worked" if it completely bombed (and bombed HARD) in Japan?
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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Legion1979 wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:42 pm
CyberZilla wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:35 pm At the very least, GFW works as a fun schlocky action movie, and that’s all it tries to be: an action packed anniversary action film.
I think that's being too fair to the film. It wasn't trying to be an anniversary film. It was trying to be THE anniversary film (the 50th, no less). It was trying to be Godzilla's final film (for the time being at least). It was also trying to be one of the biggest, most explosive, most monster-packed Godzilla films ever. It had a gigantic budget. There were multiple filming locations outside of Japan. It brought in American composers, rock groups, actors and main title designers. It was Kitamura's attempt to break into the international market. It got a red carpet premiere in Hollywood for crying out loud. Can you really say the film "worked" if it completely bombed (and bombed HARD) in Japan?
In terms of box office, it did indeed bomb, there’s no arguing that. It was too ambitious and tried too hard to appeal to Hollywood, and that was its downfall.

To clarify, when I talk about Final Wars “succeeding,” I am going off of my own viewing experience. For me, what it aimed to do worked: it aimed to be a big explosive monster movie with entertainment value, and it provided that. It didn’t amaze me or move me like other films might, but I wasn’t bored like with the vast majority of the Polygon trilogy’s runtime. You can call that too fair if you want, I can tell you’re passionate about the topic, but that’s how I’ve looked at the movie since I watched it.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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Alrighty, time to put on my pretentious hat,

I've been ruminating about this for a little while, and while its not entirely my idea (props to Kaltes for a good deal of inspiration), here's my justification at why Godzilla Final Wars is a misunderstood masterpiece.

Godzilla Final Wars is a divisive film, and it is easy to see why. It's an anniversary film that ostensibly pays only superficial homage to the franchise its celebrating, its campy and kitschy in ways even the 70's films of the franchise weren't, and is explicitly quite "Hollywood" in execution, or at least appears to be dragging the hollowed out body of late 90's American action franchises as if it where some cinematic skin-walker. Its very easy to laugh at the movie, rather than be entertained with it, although that doesn't stop some people from doing so. And yet despite all this, I still think this is a tragically misunderstood film. It is an anniversary film, not one that exclusively celebrates the best of the past, but rather a meta looks forward to the franchise' future. While many may be turned off by the garish elements reflective of 90s to aughts action tropes, and I won't try to convince those individuals to change their cinematic tastes, this is a key component of the films thematic message.

At it's heart, Godzilla Final Wars is about the generational divide, in both society and film history, and how to move beyond the ever apparent schism. Almost every narrative thread throughout the movie deals with the conflictions between the old and new. The old warriors like Don Fry's Gordon that are outplaced by the genetic mutants, the rebellious Xillien youth who perform a coup against their elderly leadership, the young boy who saves Minya from his hunter grandfather, and even the reunion of Godzilla and Minya illustrate the totality brought on by the changing sands of time. Yet this is not just representative of generational social differences, but also of the changes in cinematic history, especially relating to special effects pictures. The simple sci-fi flick no longer exists in the face of Hollywood's leather bound mutants and bullet timing protagonists, what once was simplicity and elegance is replaced by flashy action set pieces, with an almost crude adherence to (the contemporary) style. How does a franchise as long and influential as Godzilla survive? Luckily, this is the question Godzilla Final Wars set out to answer.

The film depicts two ways of approaching the divide, stand one's ground and further grow the divide, or overcome the differences and move forward together. The Xillien's obviously represent the former idea, and their violent destruction of the old guard and their hasty invasion plan, despite being initially successful, is ultimately foiled by their irreverence for the past and its significance. As Gordon unsubtly proclaims, "Listen kid, there are two things you didn't know about the Earth. One is me. And the other is... Godzilla." And yet, its not just Earth's old guard that saves the world, but the synergy between the new and old that overcomes the Xillien's villainous takeover, Gordon and Godzilla are necessary, but so are Shinichi and the advent of the "Kaiser" class. To drive the point home, once Godzilla destroys the alien threat and turns his resentment back towards humanity, its Minya who pacifies him to move forward in harmony.

The film makes a clear stance that the franchise can neither remain stagnant in what it has done in the past, nor can it forget the importance of what made it successful in the first place. This is why the film sports such a stylistic and tonal distinction from the rest of the franchise. It's pulling from successful western franchises not because it wants to Frankenstein Godzilla into a wanna-be X-men/Matrix/whatever type film, but that it understands for the franchise to continue on, it must adapt as times change. As I said before, I understand many find the aesthetic it adopts to be grating or offensive, but I don't believe its simply to ape western action films, rather it is living up to the message it promotes, trying to bring the old and the new together. Classic suits brawls crossed with leather bound motorcycle chases, old school alien invasions with modern blockbuster sheen (be it the blatant use of cgi or the death star trench run), Godzilla Final Wars believes in its message and adheres to it full heartedly, all together in one goofy package (something I think the film is intentionally aware of).

As for how well the film works, is hard to say, it obviously wasn't the reverent anniversary film many hoped it would be, and while a great many enjoyed the almost endless nonsensical action, Final Wars has remained a greatly maligned entry into the franchise. But as we look to the franchises future, was Final Wars' message really that far off, can we not say that the success of both the western and eastern additions to the franchise followed in it's philosophical footsteps? Its easy to see the monsterverse does, but what about Anno's tokusatsu revolution? What is this "shin anthology" but marrying the old with the new? And for this reason, I believe the message Final Wars proclaims to be true with the past few decades as evidence of its accuracy, a masterpiece at understanding how to move the franchise further to what it is today.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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*stands up and applauds*

I've only seen Final Wars once, a while ago, so I have no clue if any of that is accurate. But it sounds good. It'd be really cool if it was true. It doesn't excuse the movie's lazy writing off of so many beloved classic monsters, but it does explain a lot of the other seemingly bizarre decisions that were made. I'll definitely have to keep this perspective in mind once I get to my rewatch.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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CyberZilla wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:35 pm It is nowhere near as bad as the Predator 2018
I am mostly referring to the approach. Kitamura later did Midnight Meat Train which isn't a bad film at all, so it isn't his fault

Too many cooks will spoil the broth
CyberZilla wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 5:35 pm At the very least, GFW works as a fun schlocky action movie, and that’s all it tries to be: an action packed anniversary action film. It’s shallow and weird, but it’s fun, even if it’s not your cup of tea. There’s stuff to enjoy there. It’s not my absolute favorite, but I didn’t hate watching it.
Your mileage may vary, indeed - but I simply cannot stand it when Godzilla is just used as a big power fantasy without the shreddest of difficulty until the end. This (I would say) started with G2K, but G2K had the decency of making things difficult for Godzilla, unlike GFW

As far as ensemble films go, DAM and GMK do a far better job (although GMK has a villain Godzilla, unlike DAM and GFW)

this is why I compare it to TRoS for one.... Rey Skywalker hardly ever meets real difficulties in her journey
Last edited by Omegamorph on Sun Aug 21, 2022 5:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
Platypus Prime wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:21 pm I realized today that thanks to a few animations and manga she's appeared in, Biollante is an anime girl.
miguelnuva wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2024 5:47 pm With this being an Oscar for best visual effects you can also joke and say Godzilla really did win the oscar.

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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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GFW was made by a guy who claimed he liked Godzilla when he didn't REALLY like Godzilla. He spent most of the films budget on pointless location shooting, thereby forcing the effects crew to build all the monsters on the same small budget as Tokyo SOS (which they hated). He bathed the movie in color filters and filled it with mutants, motorcycles and martial arts to appeal to the international crowd.

Theres nothing smart or deep about this movie. Fans can enjoy it all they want, but it's not some sort of misunderstood masterpiece. It's a sloppy mess.

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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

Post by daveblackeye15 »

I like the film pretty well until the last act. Like around when the crew of the Gotengo get kidnapped. Okay humor is crappy and there's a bit too much Ozaki action but hey it has schlocky charm and Mutants vs. Ebirah was great.

Godzilla doesn't have to be super front and center the whole time. My issue of that with Final Wars is it just feels like the director was so much more interested in his human action scenes than the kaiju scenes. Like I could forgive rushing the other monster scenes if the final one was better. But it's barely the monsters and more watching the humans and aliens fight. Yes there is ALWAYS going to be more human scenes to Godzilla but when Ozaki gets three fights in a row while Godzilla is barely seen overcoming Monster X that's when I know he cares less about Godzilla and more on his humans.

The last act ruins a lot of it.

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Re: Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

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Legion1979 wrote: Sun Aug 21, 2022 6:49 am GFW was made by a guy who claimed he liked Godzilla when he didn't REALLY like Godzilla. He spent most of the films budget on pointless location shooting, thereby forcing the effects crew to build all the monsters on the same small budget as Tokyo SOS (which they hated). He bathed the movie in color filters and filled it with mutants, motorcycles and martial arts to appeal to the international crowd.

Theres nothing smart or deep about this movie. Fans can enjoy it all they want, but it's not some sort of misunderstood masterpiece. It's a sloppy mess.
That may be the case, but I don’t think it’s necessarily wrong to interpret the movie with that lens.
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