Talkback: Godzilla Final Wars (2004)

[Legion1979]

Yes! That's exactly what it feels like. Our defense of a movie he's convinced should be looked at as "trash" is clearly starting to get under his skin.

You know why Final Wars doesn't deserve the defense? Because, and this is really me repeating myself, it was an incredibly expensive movie that was hyped up like crazy (internationally no less), and was designed at the outset to be the biggest, baddest, longest and loudest Godzilla movie ever. Oh yeah, it was also meant to celebrate both Godzilla's 50th anniversary and was supposed to be his "final" film. The thing premiered in Hollywood at a red carpet premiere. It featured Sum 41, Kyle Cooper's title designs, an American UFC champion and an American composer. I should have been AMAZING.

I WILL NOT even try to be fair and go to bat to this film because it doesn't deserve it. I have no sympathy for the movie. It went big and it crashed and burned. Good.

Godzillas Revenge has spent over 50 years being treated like crap by people who don't understand what it was supposed to be. It deserves the defense because it's such a sincere little movie. It shouldn't be the fandoms punching bag.

[daveblackeye15]

Yeah I'm appreciating Godzilla's Revenge a bit more these last few years. Hmm there are some cool parts to FW but I think the Japanese version of Revenge is a lot less annoying. Yeah I'd sooner re-watch Revenge over Final Wars if I had to watch one right this second.

I remember thinking Sea Monster was just okay as a kid but I like that one a lot more for its cast and adventure setting.

[UltramanGoji]

GFW's lifespan has almost always been more luxurious than AMA. AMA had spent the better part of 40-something years being lamented by fans as the worst in the series. It was only relatively recently that it began to see more appreciation due to the increased availability of its original unaltered Japanese version and a greater critical understanding of its behind-the-scenes circumstances and intentions.

GFW does not have that. GFW has almost always, for nearly 20 years since the minute it was released, had both love and hate from the fandom. It's never been considered the worst by a considerable margin, nor the best either. In fact, anecdotally at least, I'd say it's a lot more popular and beloved by many casual and non-fans than most entries in the franchise.

[miguelnuva]

I'm sure the majority of the fan base would still rank FW higher than AMA even with a lot of us getting more into the understanding of how films work and are made because from the looks of it more Godzilla fans like the flashy fights then the serious films that teach lessons.

[CyberZilla]

I'm sure the majority of the fan base would still rank FW higher than AMA even with a lot of us getting more into the understanding of how films work and are made because from the looks of it more Godzilla fans like the flashy fights then the serious films that teach lessons.

I appreciate the Godzilla movies that teach actual lessons. I’ve even appreciated AMA as the years go on, even though I’m not inclined to rewatch it anytime soon.

I think you’re on the money there: the wider fan base comes for monster fights. GFW has that in spades, so if that’s the expectation, it would be met with enjoyment. I’ll admit I like the movie for that, and imo I find a strange charm in its “schlockiness.” However, I appreciate what AMA sets out to do with Ichiro and his story, even if it doesn’t click for me or them entirely. I think more fans should give it a chance and see what it wants to accomplish, given its context. I wish more of the fan base would try to do that.

[And yes, I realize saying GFW is “fun” in an earlier post, as if that’s objective, was not correct— fun factor will be very subjective. I apologize for misspeaking on that.]

[edgaguirus]

Both films are very clear in what they are and want to accomplish. AMA is a fantasy film built around the everyday life of a kid. His experiences mirror what happens in his fantasies, and later vice versa.

GFW is an action blockbuster and homage to Godzilla and western films. It's meant to be the ultimate celebration of Godzilla and kaiju films, and it does that. It has all the ingredients for a classic Godzilla movie, and then some. Whether you think it's fun or cool all depends on personal taste.

[darthzilla99]

GFW's lifespan has almost always been more luxurious than AMA. AMA had spent the better part of 40-something years being lamented by fans as the worst in the series. It was only relatively recently that it began to see more appreciation due to the increased availability of its original unaltered Japanese version and a greater critical understanding of its behind-the-scenes circumstances and intentions.

GFW does not have that. GFW has almost always, for nearly 20 years since the minute it was released, had both love and hate from the fandom. It's never been considered the worst by a considerable margin, nor the best either. In fact, anecdotally at least, I'd say it's a lot more popular and beloved by many casual and non-fans than most entries in the franchise.

Maybe this is my anecdote, but I remember on Toho Kingdom, Rodan's Roost, Eternal Mothra's fourm, UltramanLah fourms, super sentai fourms, James Ballard's short-lived fourm, and the monsterzero fourms universally declaring GFW was as bad as AMA and having the same amount of hate the Polygon trilogy gets today. There were even debates that Kitamura was a worse director and more hated than Roland Emmerich.

It also got blamed for making Ultraman the Next bomb at the theaters because fans claimed it killed the Japanese audiences interest in Tokusatsu films.

[Omegamorph]

AMA > GFW, clearly, at least AMA is earnest

[Tohosaurus]

With all the deleted scenes and content unused in the final film, I've become curious about hypothetical additional cuts of the film. Granted, this doesn't appear to be a Zack Snyder situation where the film is immediately "fixable" (if that's your view of his JL movie), but it's one of the few Toho Godzilla films which seems to have a good amount of other content that could result in a fairly different version. Depending on how you edited it, maybe it'd be better, but regardless an interesting curiosity.

Maybe this is my anecdote, but I remember on Toho Kingdom, Rodan's Roost, Eternal Mothra's fourm, UltramanLah fourms, super sentai fourms, James Ballard's short-lived fourm, and the monsterzero fourms universally declaring GFW was as bad as AMA and having the same amount of hate the Polygon trilogy gets today. There were even debates that Kitamura was a worse director and more hated than Roland Emmerich.

It also got blamed for making Ultraman the Next bomb at the theaters because fans claimed it killed the Japanese audiences interest in Tokusatsu films.

I've seen this change as well. A decade ago this movie was despised on the level of AMA and G98 as one of the worst in the series. I'm sure there were people who really liked it, but there was such disdain for it that they probably didn't talk about it much. I think I've always had varied opinions of it, due to liking the suit (aside from the head) and the more physical battle intentions, but really disliked a lot of the chaotic subplotting and brief battles. It's more something I watch and think about what could have been rather than being impressed.

AMA, on the other hand, I've grown to respect and enjoy a lot. If you go into it expecting almost a kind of indie drama rather than a Godzilla action film, you're in a better mindset. I'd even be interested in other movies which took place similarly adjacent to Godzilla, but you have to have the right characters and story.

[Mac Daddy MM]

Lol. No f'n way is Godzilla's Revenge greater than FW. FW isn't good. It's highly flawed, but at least it succeeds at being entertaining for what it is. And you have two very memorable characters in the form of X and Captain Gordon that move the movie along at a brisk speed even when it takes over half the movie to get Godzilla out of the ice. You take ALL the kaiju action out of GFW, you're still left with some very entertaining characters, action pieces and so-so martial arts fights and, for what it's worth, some eye candy that spews scientific BS. It's crazy entertainment.

Godzilla's Revenge has nothing going for it from any character or any monster. The movie is single handedly responsible for shredding any hope Minilla may of had at actually becoming something good following his roles in SoG and DAM. Ichiro is just a stereotypical Kenny that was done better in a movie like Gamera vs. Gyaos. Similarly as I said with FW, you take all the kaiju elements out of GR except the scenes of Ichiro and Minilla... You have scenes of a kid getting bullied and kidnapped, some cringe slapstick comedy and a Japanese episode of Barney. Circumstances behind the movie on "why" it's so bad don't change the fact that the movie is simply bad. The movie can't even grasp its "message" correctly because by the end of the film, Ichiro hasn't "overcome" his bully and made new friends, he becomes one by messing with an innocent dude painting... And then his wonderful dad has to step in to save him from his paint-covered victim chasing him? Great message.

Can we really not try and pretend GR is some thought provoking, deep character-driven drama worthy of any sort of praise?

[Terasawa]

Can we really not try and pretend GR is some thought provoking, deep character-driven drama worthy of any sort of praise?

No one here suggested it was either of those things. As for whether it's worthy of praise, that's up for each of us to determine ourselves.

[Mac Daddy MM]

Can we really not try and pretend GR is some thought provoking, deep character-driven drama worthy of any sort of praise?

No one here suggested it was either of those things. As for whether it's worthy of praise, that's up for each of us to determine ourselves.

May have come off a bit too harsh with that final line, but one shouldn't be just writing off FW for being exactly what it set out to be and nothing more (be it you like it or not)... And then come to the defense of absolute garbage like Godzilla's Revenge that is an all around bad movie that fails at every aspect of what it tries to be. And the only defense that can be amounted for it is

it's such a sincere little movie. It shouldn't be the fandoms punching bag.

The movie had a rocky production, that's no secret. That doesn't make the movie any less garbage than it is. Just because it's from the Showa era doesn't make it any less trash. Showa trash is still trash.

[godjacob]

Can we really not try and pretend GR is some thought provoking, deep character-driven drama worthy of any sort of praise?

No one here suggested it was either of those things. As for whether it's worthy of praise, that's up for each of us to determine ourselves.

I mean when I said I didn't like the movie it seemed to upset some people in the Attack All Monsters thread lol.

[Terasawa]

Just because it's from the Showa era doesn't make it any less trash. Showa trash is still trash.

No one suggested that it was above criticism because it's a Showa Godzilla movie, either.

You're certainly entitled to think it's garbage, but not everyone else is going to share your opinion. They're not defending a film that's garbage from their perspective; that's where these arguments always get hung up. There's no objective measurement of this film's (or any other's) worth.

Can we really not try and pretend GR is some thought provoking, deep character-driven drama worthy of any sort of praise?

No one here suggested it was either of those things. As for whether it's worthy of praise, that's up for each of us to determine ourselves.

I mean when I said I didn't like the movie it seemed to upset some people in the Attack All Monsters thread lol.

Some people here get upset about almost everything, but I'm not sure I understand how that connects to my post you quoted.

[godjacob]

Just because it's from the Showa era doesn't make it any less trash. Showa trash is still trash.

No one suggested that it was above criticism because it's a Showa Godzilla movie, either.

You're certainly entitled to think it's garbage, but not everyone else is going to share your opinion. They're not defending a film that's garbage from their perspective; that's where these arguments always get hung up. There's no objective measurement of this film's (or any other's) worth.

No one here suggested it was either of those things. As for whether it's worthy of praise, that's up for each of us to determine ourselves.

I mean when I said I didn't like the movie it seemed to upset some people in the Attack All Monsters thread lol.

Some people here get upset about almost everything, but I'm not sure I understand how that connects to my post you quoted.

Mostly the "up to ourselves if it is worthy of praise" and making a point when I decided I wasn't people seemed to treat it as the objective wrong answer.

[Terasawa]

Mostly the "up to ourselves if it is worthy of praise" and making a point when I decided I wasn't people seemed to treat it as the objective wrong answer.

"Can we really not try and pretend GR is some thought provoking, deep character-driven drama worthy of any sort of praise?" is a kind of shitty thing to say, because it comes with the implication that that person's opinion is correct and others with contrasting views are wrong; this especially so with the further implication that those who like the movie are only "pretending" to do so because the movie was made in the Showa era, by Ishiro Honda, or whatever. That's what I objected to (and MM, who was probably stoned out of his gourd, said he didn't mean for it to read that way).

Regarding the thread you're talking about: I recall one user--maybe two--getting bent out of shape about your opinion. The administrators also stepped in to calm and contain the discussion (which had bled over into other threads, including this one). I also messaged you to apologize if *I* had crossed a line and further suggested that you report anyone you thought might be causing you trouble.

Now, a number of other users did disagree with you about Godzilla's Revenge, but I don't think all that was to silence your opinion or treat it as "objectively wrong."

[Legion1979]

I really think MM needs to stop posting when he's high/stoned (assuming he was, which does seem to be the case a lot of the time lately) because a multi paragraph response where it basically boils down to him calling GR "garbage" over and over again and using terms like "Showa traah" isn't productive. There's a pretty big divide between godjacop's comments about the movie (which if I recall correctly was mainly him having a big problem with the movies message and moral, which at least means hes willing to discuss it) and MM walking into a quiet thread and firing off the "GR is garbage, garbage, garbage" cannons. One user is welcoming discussion, the other is baiting a thread to turn crazy because he knows his choice of words will upset someone.

Maybe the entire subject of GR needs to take a break for a while. If we can't be MATURE about how we talk about this stuff maybe it's best to just stop talking about certain things.

[eabaker]

It's highly flawed, but at least it succeeds at being entertaining for what it is.

I mean, if you have enough alcohol and a few good friends to join you in shouting at the obnoxious idiocy on screen, it can be effective for releasing some pent up frustration. But I wouldn't call "so grating that it's easy to vent at" quite the same as "entertaining for what it is."

Added in 48 seconds:

Captain Gordon

Is a tedious character played by a terrible actor.

I'll grant you that the one X-seijin dude is an example of a pretty effective camp performance.

[Legion1979]

Sometimes even alcohol can't help. In 2019 (or was it 18, whatever) me, my wife and a good friend who is also a big Godzilla fan watched the film. All the alcohol in the world couldn't make it tolerable. My wife (who is just a casual fan, and that's being generous) HATED it. Meanwhile, she thought Revenge was cute.

I'll never forgot the story of what happened when a fan went up to Don Frye at a G-Fest and told him he was his favorite character in his favorite movie. Frye's reaction? "Too bad they both suck, kid."

[godjacob]

Mostly the "up to ourselves if it is worthy of praise" and making a point when I decided I wasn't people seemed to treat it as the objective wrong answer.

"Can we really not try and pretend GR is some thought provoking, deep character-driven drama worthy of any sort of praise?" is a kind of shitty thing to say, because it comes with the implication that that person's opinion is correct and others with contrasting views are wrong; this especially so with the further implication that those who like the movie are only "pretending" to do so because the movie was made in the Showa era, by Ishiro Honda, or whatever. That's what I objected to (and MM, who was probably stoned out of his gourd, said he didn't mean for it to read that way).

Regarding the thread you're talking about: I recall one user--maybe two--getting bent out of shape about your opinion. The administrators also stepped in to calm and contain the discussion (which had bled over into other threads, including this one). I also messaged you to apologize if *I* had crossed a line and further suggested that you report anyone you thought might be causing you trouble.

Now, a number of other users did disagree with you about Godzilla's Revenge, but I don't think all that was to silence your opinion or treat it as "objectively wrong."

Oh yeah speaking of that I couldn't message you back for some reason to give a reply to that for some reason. So I hope I didn't come off as a jerk for not replying to it, I tried I did ^^"