Godzilla Minus One VERSUS Shin Godzilla - Who Does It Best - SPOILERS

[Mechagigan]

The Japanese people I talked to around the time of Shin's release said it felt like its overall feeling was one of optimism for the country.

I think Minus One nods to Shin a bit in how it, like Shin, makes use of civilian industry in the fight against Godzilla. In Minus One, it's the Tokyo Balloon floatation devices and the local fishing boats. In Shin, they attack Godzilla literally with the city of Tokyo itself. The trains, a huge point and hugely symbolic, as they're an intimate part of every Tokyoite's lives and familiar even to those who only know the city from movies and TV. It's almost the lifeblood of the city, its very veins and arteries. Then there are the concrete pump trucks. Even the buildings themselves join in the fight, reversing the entire premise of the franchise, collapsing upon Godzilla in mighty blows.

Yeah, Shin's a genius film.

Not a lot to add besides that I love this interpretation, I've never seen it this way. I love that Shin's so open to clever interpretations like these

[Rody]

-snip-

This is a late reply, but I wish we had more official English supplements delving into details like these - home video commentaries, interviews, essays... I feel like a lot of the Western discourse was stuck on whether or not the political leanings were kosher. I wish someone like Crterion would sub-license the movie.

However... a really wish we'd get a new Godzilla roar sometime soon. The remixed 54 roar is getting tired now, Toho.

A brand-new road would indeed be cool - but I must admit, the Minus One roar remix has shot up into my all-time favorite G roar variants. It's got a rawness and power to it I haven't felt in a while (sorry, Legendary).

[ilovegigan]

(i feel like i wrote in this thread about this already but i dont remember so hiii)

Me personally? I feel it's a tie for me on which is best. Both are great in their own ways due to the different time periods their set in.

[king_ghidorah]

The more time goes by the more I appreciate Shin’s ingenuity and originality.

I’m not sure if I’m willing to say it’s a better film, but Minus 1 is pretty vanilla in comparison. It’s just done very well.

I think if I were Japanese I’d easily prefer Shin, and in fact, would probably be a little mystified that Minus 1 received so much global acclaim as opposed to Shin. I suspect that would endear me to Shin more and make feel as if Minus 1 were for the plebes and mouth breathers of the world.

[Vakanai]

Better here feels more subjective taste and preference rather than any actual objective measure of quality for either with films like this.

That said, put me in the minority - I still like Shin more, although Minus One is damn close.

[LegendZilla]

Better here feels more subjective taste and preference rather than any actual objective measure of quality for either with films like this.

That said, put me in the minority - I still like Shin more, although Minus One is damn close.

Do you feel that detractors of Shin are potentially missing the point of it because it's main themes and ideas aren't designed for a western-orientated mindset?

[LSD Jellyfish]

The more time goes by the more I appreciate Shin’s ingenuity and originality.

I’m not sure if I’m willing to say it’s a better film, but Minus 1 is pretty vanilla in comparison. It’s just done very well.

Shin Godzilla really does stand out for its originality, and I’m not talking about exterior surface elements like Godzilla’s beam. I can’t really think of another monster film where the main character is a small-time government official, and the main problem (in addition to the monster) is knowing how to put the right pieces of the puzzle (manpower, think tanks, resources, legitimacy) together to solve a problem.

Shin has/had a lot of potential to receive just as much global acclaim, but it didn’t receive as much attention as it did for a variety of reasons. I can very much imagine people WHO ARENT PAYING ATTENTION, viewing everything in the film as “just boring talking” and not realize that it’s a well thought-out and intricately designed film. That’s rare in films across all countries.

I agree Minus One is a bit more vanilla in terms of its themes on family, and the way it ties to pull on heart strings. While it’s also a team effort like Shin Godzilla, Shikishima is very much more of an action hero. STILL, I have a lot of respect for a lot respect for the choice to focus more on his internal issues, regret, and revenge, and spend so much time exploring that, rather than just have him be a macho man.

Shin does have its sappy moments, and emotional tugs, but they’re much more subtle and reserved than Minus One. With the dust settled, though, I think Shin is the winner for my own tastes. However, I think they’re both on the same tier.

I’m not going to say the rest of the Godzilla franchise has bad cinematography, or anything. There’s a lot of shots I like, and during the golden showa era there was a lot of beautiful framing. But both Shin and -1 really stick out to me with their cold openings: the police boarding the ship and the plane landing on the island.

[Dr. Professor]

I need to rewatch Shin as I haven’t watched it since Minus One came out, but as of right now, I prefer Minus One. I’m very drawn into the strong emotions present in the film, I love the 40s setting, the score is incredible, and I’m enamored with Godzilla’s design and how aggressive and angry he is. That said, Shin Godzilla is also an incredible film. I think they both represent some of the very best stuff the Godzilla franchise has to offer. I’m very happy we have them.

[Jetty_Jags]

Do you feel that detractors of Shin are potentially missing the point of it because it's main themes and ideas aren't designed for a western-orientated mindset?

Can we set this talking point to bed? The main themes and ideas aren't some cryptogram for western audiences, nor are its stylistic elements. Yes some elements (such as certain visual allusions and the like) might be missed by the average American film goer (the coolant trucks at the end are such an example), but these are so far from being necessary to understand the film. Americans know about destruction, bureaucracy, and ideas of national sovereignty that they should be able to understand the gist of Shin. The obvious contemporary reference is the government's handling of the covid pandemic, but I honestly think Hurricane Katrina fits a little better. These aren't esoteric eastern concepts. Nor is the films larger structure, so much so that I'd argue the film largely plays within genre conventions. There are so many committee meetings in Godzilla and the larger kaiju movie genre, committee meeting to pull in the relevant paleontologist, committee meeting to bring in the hard brass military commando, committee meeting where the five year old boy gets to ima-gineer a totally foolproof kaiju dispersal plan. The only difference is you actually have to pay attention to these meetings, and extrapolate what they depict and how it plays into the films themes, as opposed to them purely being exposition dumps.

[Jomei]

Do you feel that detractors of Shin are potentially missing the point of it because it's main themes and ideas aren't designed for a western-orientated mindset?

Can we set this talking point to bed? The main themes and ideas aren't some cryptogram for western audiences, nor are its stylistic elements. Yes some elements (such as certain visual allusions and the like) might be missed by the average American film goer (the coolant trucks at the end are such an example), but these are so far from being necessary to understand the film. Americans know about destruction, bureaucracy, and ideas of national sovereignty that they should be able to understand the gist of Shin. The obvious contemporary reference is the government's handling of the covid pandemic, but I honestly think Hurricane Katrina fits a little better. These aren't esoteric eastern concepts. Nor is the films larger structure, so much so that I'd argue the film largely plays within genre conventions. There are so many committee meetings in Godzilla and the larger kaiju movie genre, committee meeting to pull in the relevant paleontologist, committee meeting to bring in the hard brass military commando, committee meeting where the five year old boy gets to ima-gineer a totally foolproof kaiju dispersal plan. The only difference is you actually have to pay attention to these meetings, and extrapolate what they depict and how it plays into the films themes, as opposed to them purely being exposition dumps.

Legend may not have put the point precisely, but I don't think it should be discarded. "Esoteric eastern . . . cryptogram" is a bit of a strawman. I do think Westerners' ignorance of the 3/11 disasters and unawareness of Japan's particularly tedious bureaucracy are indeed stumbling points to fully appreciating the film. And while Americans might "know about ideas of national sovereignty" in some sense, the particulars of Japan's situation might be blind spots, and it's not a theme that means much of anything to us. Our sovereignty is about as secure as you can imagine, and we have no regional rivals. For Japan, the question of the influence of the US government over their political situation, plus China looming across the sea, are a constant background reality. Japan continues to endure ridiculous, humiliating treatment at the hands of the US military, a point of contention for decades. Would we tolerate this for two seconds? Do most Americans even know about this? I do think things like the full implication of the Americans' reckless bombing plan over Tokyo probably slip past most viewers, as do a variety of other satirical moments and pointed lines of dialogue. And even if they comprehend it, I don't think the feeling registers nearly in the same way.

I don't think it's some esoteric eastern puzzle box that Americans can't even follow or glean some themes from. But on average, I do think the Japanese-specific elements affected its reception in the west. It's not the only factor, but I think it is one. Anno was not thinking internationally with Shin Godzilla. From the beginning, he said he wanted to make "an interesting Japanese movie." I don't think it can really be denied that it's a much more high-context film. It's kind of like saying the average Japanese can understand Seinfeld because they understand the concept that "rude service workers are undesirable." Of course they know that. But, I would argue, the average person there lacks the cultural context to fully appreciate the Soup Nazi or Joe's Fruit Shop, and this contributes to Seinfeld's relative unpopularity in Japan.

[JAGzilla]

The fact that so many American Godzilla fans dismiss Shin as boring blah blah blah or draw some very inaccurate conclusions about the anti-American elements (I'm foggy on the details of those takes but I've definitely seen them floated) does suggest that Jomei has a point. I personally didn't get a lot of what Shin was going for until I saw it explained here, even relatively basic things like the initial barrage of meetings being satirical. It definitely is a movie that requires a fair bit of engagement and context to really understand. You certainly don't have to be Japanese, but it helps.

[miguelnuva]

I don't like Shin itself upon rewatching the film. The film holds my intreast just fine its just the way Godzilla acts when he finally shows up.

[Jetty_Jags]

Snip

Edit: I wrote this up and have been thinking about it more and not sure I fully agree with what's written below. Perhaps I am overstating how cultural familiarity (and lack there of) might reward (or remove) satirical sting. That being said, I have to go, and do want to post my thoughts, just realize that I may come back later with a different perspective...



I stand by my post. Perhaps I'm not being generous towards Legend, but they have a history of writing vague oddly pointed questions that repeat the same inability to understand why x is or is not appreciated (in fact they've asked this exact question about shin godzilla in the past). And I honestly don't think eastern esoteric cryptogram is a strawman, here's a review from imdb that almost literally says the same thing in more words.

Watched this 3 times over the years (Japanese subs). As a Westerner I could not comprehend or understand what the message was beyond that the creative team did not approve of Japan's handling of the Fukushima nuclear disaster. Thus Japan's government is depicted to be slow, inept, and deceptive. The women are smarter than the men.

Godzilla himself is some sort of mutated beast. The eyes look disturbing. The special effects are good. The best part of the movie is the attack on Tokyo. It moved me emotionally.

There was an attempt made to be a serious, socially conscience movie. I am happy the Japanese people supported and liked this movie, which happens to be one of the best movies in Japanese history.

But it just wasn't for anyone outside of Japan. I guess I need a PhD in Japanese current events and culture to figure this one out. Not meant to be exported or seen by non-Japanese. Sorry!

I largely agree with your second paragraph (which the above review also supports), there are elements that are outright invisible to a western audience because it is outside of their culture/history/sphere of immediate influence. But I honestly don't know how one comes to the above conclusion even while acknowledging those cultural blind spots. Film is a fantastic medium for creating empathy, often leaving room for further research and greater appreciation upon subsequent viewings. I consider Shin Godzilla to be constructed well enough that one should be able to understand the major brushstrokes even if they are completely unaware of finer cultural details and nuances. I think the problem rests far more on lack of media literacy and attention spans than being "too Japanese".

[Jomei]

And I honestly don't think eastern esoteric cryptogram is a strawman, here's a review from imdb that almost literally says the same thing in more words.

I mean, another form of straw-manning is to take dumb or mediocre representations of an argument rather than addressing the most charitable way of interpreting the POV. Sort of the late night TV street interview approach. "Who's the current president?" "uhhh... Brock Pokémon!?" >Heh, Americans don't even know the president! I don't think you're intending to do that, but you're citing a pretty dumb-dumb review. I guess I'm just saying if you want to contend with this argument about the film's western reception, address the people putting it forth intelligently and the best forms of the argument rather than bad paraphrases from people who have gathered the idea second-hand.

I consider Shin Godzilla to be constructed well enough that one should be able to understand the major brushstrokes even if they are completely unaware of finer cultural details and nuances. I think the problem rests far more on lack of media literacy and attention spans than being "too Japanese".

I think smart viewers, even without full cultural and historical awareness, can catch the major brushstrokes, so I agree. I also agree there are... other issues... affecting the reception. Now, to address something completely unrelated...

I don't like Shin itself upon rewatching the film. The film holds my intreast just fine its just the way Godzilla acts when he finally shows up.

You raise a fascinating point.

[LSD Jellyfish]

When I saw Shin Godzilla in theaters in 2016 I don’t think I was aware about its relation to the Fukushima disaster beyond the vaguest of ideas. The same can be said for its deeper political themes and implications. At the time, I just thought it was a “great movie”.

The idea that people don’t like Shin Godzilla because they aren’t Japanese is a dumb and mildly “racist” (probably a better word for this) strawman as it implies that people can’t use art to convey empathy across cultural barriers.

However, saying that people who PAY ATTENTION and engage with the film beyond a “where is Godzilla” perspective, will enjoy the film quite a bit more is a valid point to make. And yes, this extends to the film’s nuanced critiques of the Japanese government and Japan’s relationship with the United States.

I’ll say something that’ll get some people upset, but Minus One is a “normie masterpiece”. Amazing film, and it deserves the praise it gets, but it’s much more audience pleasing and easier for people to instantly “get” across cultural barriers without engaging with the movie more.

If this sounds like I’m being pretentious, maybe I am, but I’d like to emphasize (before Legendzilla completely makes a strawman out of what I’m about to say) that you don’t need to know anything about Japan or Japanese politics to enjoy Shin Godzilla. It has amazing camera work, music (both original and reused Toho tracks), editing, tension, effects (mostly!), and it’s surprisingly fast paced despite what people on here believe.

The nuance of Shin Godzilla isn’t why it’s a good film, but it’s why we’ll keep discussing the movie for the rest of our lives, especially as some of the events of the film seem to parallel real world events. As much as I love Minus One, there’s a lot less to dissect and pour over.

[Jetty_Jags]

snip

You're correct, I certainly wasn't holding to the principle of charity, which I should work to uphold better in the future. That being said, I don't think I've ever encountered that argument in the context of a nuanced position, particularly raised by someone more critical of the film. Not that it cannot be the case, but beyond the points you've given, could you point me to someone who is more critical of the film taking the position that it's too incomprehensible to western audiences (or perhaps more realistically, thoughtful detractors who you think undermine the film because of their lack of cultural exposure, even if they aren't aware that is the issue)?

[Jomei]

The idea that people don’t like Shin Godzilla because they aren’t Japanese is a dumb and mildly “racist” (probably a better word for this) strawman as it implies that people can’t use art to convey empathy across cultural barriers.

Well, you're still kind of badly paraphrasing the position, though. It would be racist if I said the BLOOD OF THE YAMATO SPIRIT was required to appreciate it. I'm talking only about awareness of cultural context that, by a wide margin, people living in Japan (mostly Japanese people) are more likely to possess. See the Seinfeld analogy. It's not required that you be a New Yorker, any particular race, or even an American to get the Soup Nazi. But if you're familiar with some of the cultural quirks of the New York area (could be through living there, being an American, visiting, being really familiar with American/New York culture through art etc.), recognition of the type of maniacal service worker he represents deepens (or perhaps even facilitates in the first place) the appreciation. If you don't recognize the type, you might just be puzzled. Humor is often very high-context and thus doesn't translate neatly.
Lots of gaijin and otaku got what was going on, though, so I'm definitely not saying 日本人しかこの映画分かるはずがない。言いたいのは、「サービスサービス」。

This doesn't imply one can't empathize through art. But, with a high-context work, if you lack the requisite knowledge to recognize cultural and historical referents, you might not get the full effect. This really isn't controversial. If you don't recognize the 3/11 imagery and the Fukushima parallels in Shin Godzilla, you're missing a critical layer of the film, even if you're empathizing with people facing destruction in a generalized sense.

Like, imagine watching The Zone of Interest without knowing about the Holocaust.

I would also suspect that being informed after the fact about the subtext of the film is not going to be impactful as if one recognized it right away while viewing. And because this was the case for many Shin Godzilla viewers in the west, I think it has an impact on the film's reception broadly and partially explains (double-checking that people saw the word "partially") its mixed reception in the west vs virtually universal acclaim in Japan.

snip

You're correct, I certainly wasn't holding to the principle of charity, which I should work to uphold better in the future. That being said, I don't think I've ever encountered that argument in the context of a nuanced position, particularly raised by someone more critical of the film. Not that it cannot be the case, but beyond the points you've given, could you point me to someone who is more critical of the film taking the position that it's too incomprehensible to western audiences (or perhaps more realistically, thoughtful detractors who you think undermine the film because of their lack of cultural exposure, even if they aren't aware that is the issue)?

Maybe we got off talking past each other because I was approaching it not as a critical or supportive position but rather one that simply partially explained some regional differences in its reception.

I was conceiving that as neither necessarily a critique of the viewers (ignorance ≠ stupidity) nor of the film (Japan = target audience).

[LSD Jellyfish]

This doesn't imply one can't empathize through art. But, with a high-context work, if you lack the requisite knowledge to recognize cultural and historical referents, you might not get the full effect. This really isn't controversial. If you don't recognize the 3/11 imagery and the Fukushima parallels in Shin Godzilla, you're missing a critical layer of the film, even if you're empathizing with people facing destruction in a generalized sense.

Yessir agree with everything here.

My point about mildly “racist” (we need a more nuanced and less loaded term here), wasn’t directed at you, more so Legendzilla. I’m arguing with his point, not yours. I disagree with Legendzilla’s presumptions and way he views Shin Godzilla that makes it seem you need to do tons of research to enjoy the film on the surface level, and because of that it’s a bad film.

But to support your point, exactly, it’s why Tokyo has different connotations between Japanese and less familiar western fans. For example: Shin’s finale takes place in Akasaka, a big Japanese business district nearish old Tokyo station. Blowing up all those big towers of wealth, to defeat Godzilla, and subsequently Godzilla landing on the comparatively ancient Tokyo station is the ultimate visual of “scrap and rebuild”. I might be over analyzing this, but I’m sure the choice of that area to host the finale was intentional, whether it be for thematic or pragmatic reasons.

Compare that to people outside Japan (especially on this forum), that don’t distinguish between the different areas of Tokyo and just view it all as one thing.