Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

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Angilasman
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Post by Angilasman »

Spuro wrote: Tue Oct 24, 2023 9:05 pm
Angilasman wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 7:57 pm Not since Godzilla vs. Biollante and not until Shin Godzilla would you have a film in the franchise so clearly a cut above in quality.
If you ask me, GMK is easily better than both. But I'd get eaten alive for that take, I'm sure.
I think if GMK had gotten more time and polish (like the Gamera trilogy films had) it could be seen as something equal to what Shin Godzilla and Minus One would be (and what the Gamera trilogy were), but it's just hobbled a bit by the rushed production schedule that was Toho's way at the time. I think this negativity effects pretty much all of the Godzilla films of the '90s and '00s, but GMK just has so much more ambition to it that that glass ceiling is more noticeable.

Just like I think Ghidorah TTHM has the cleverest script of it's day but it's not as polished a production as the film before or after it.

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Post by king_ghidorah »

I agree however with your general point in regards to GMK, but I disagree about the GTTHM comparison as I've always found that film to be BETTER than the other 60s films personally.

Also, I agree with Legion on his thoughts on the GMK suit....it just looks really, frumpy and gross in most shots.

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

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king_ghidorah wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 3:40 pm I agree however with your general point in regards to GMK, but I disagree about the GTTHM comparison as I've always found that film to be BETTER than the other 60s films personally.

Also, I agree with Legion on his thoughts on the GMK suit....it just looks really, frumpy and gross in most shots.
When I talk about the Toho crew being stretched thin on GTTHM what I'm talking about are things like the big chronology error when the various subplots were woven together (day to night to day again!) or the fact that so much of the Godzilla vs. Rodan fight is puppets slapping up against each other. To be fair, it's got some of Tsuburaya's most iconic visuals, but overall it doesn't feel as slick as Mothra vs. Ghidorah or Astro Monster.

The GMK Godzilla suit is very much in the spirit of what I'm talking about. There are brilliant ideas that have gone into it, and from certain angles he looks totally awesome and from others he looks fugly. With more time they could have a) ironed out kinks in the design or b) concentrated on staging every shot from Goji's good angles.

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Post by Legion1979 »

Weird to me that people say the puppets in GTTHM are a sign of a low budget, a rushed production schedule or a crew being spread too thin. Because these puppets weren't uncommon in the first half of the 1960s. It was a stylistic choice.

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Post by JVM »

Legion1979 wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2024 5:46 pm Weird to me that people say the puppets in GTTHM are a sign of a low budget, a rushed production schedule or a crew being spread too thin. Because these puppets weren't uncommon in the first half of the 1960s. It was a stylistic choice.
Yeah, I have to agree with this. Mothras have always been puppets, Rodan is always a puppet when flying, Ghidorah's heads were puppet work, Manda, Kamacuras and Kumonga were props -- and I actually assumed Ebirah was puppet for some years and imagine puppet work was probably involved in the suit, similar to Ghidorah, but haven't seen this confirmed anywhere. Kong, potentially Ebirah and Gabara are really the only Godzilla antagonists in the sixties represented strictly by suits.

Varan, Gorosaurus and Baragon had also been portrayed with suits but their debuts were outside Godzilla films, which I think is partly because Toho relied a lot on Nakajima as their primary monster actor in terms of characterization (puppets do a lot of the character work for Ghidorah) with others mostly filling in as antagonists to Nakajima's characters or taking over for him while he was playing Godzilla. Gorosaurus was opposite his Kong while Varan and Baragon, like Rodan, were recast for reappearances. Ghidorah, the Three-Headed Monster is also the first film with more than two monsters portrayed by suit actors, with King Kong Escapes following this route afterward, and I think that's where this started to become more the default option. Destroy All Monsters features eight kaiju that had been portrayed with suitimation (Godzilla, Anguirus, Rodan, Varan, Ghidorah, Baragon, Gorosaurus, Minilla) and three previously portrayed strictly with puppetry and props (Mothra, Manda, Kumonga) but Varan is reduced to a prop for this film and Rodan and Ghidorah also use some puppetry.
I used to be a lot more optimistic and outgoing, believe it or not. I used to actually be passionate about this stuff.

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Post by edgaguirus »

Puppets and props also appeared in KK vs G and M vs G. The prop moment in KK vs G is a little visually jarring, but the puppets work in the close-up shots.
Those are my principals, and if you don't like them...well, I have others.

You involved me in a public scandal, and I protested. You said, ' do your worst', and that's precisely what I did.

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

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edgaguirus wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2025 2:30 pm Puppets and props also appeared in KK vs G and M vs G. The prop moment in KK vs G is a little visually jarring, but the puppets work in the close-up shots.
Of course puppets appear in all these '60s movies, but look at how quick the cuts are and how they vary between techniques from shot to shot. GTTHM has long, uninterrupted shots of them that are rather awkward, suggesting that they really needed to get those shots and settled for something less fully realized.

... aaaand, bringing it back to GMK: I've been thinking about how GMK is sort of a remake of GTTHM with Godzilla taking Ghidorah's place as the big bad.

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Post by HistoricalBrazilian »

GMK is my favorite Godzilla design ever, like officially. I love it so much.

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Post by king_ghidorah »

He's a bit fugly to me from most views, but when it works, it really, really works. I just love the bright fantasy tones of the movie so it kind of makes me like the suit more despite of some gross angles here and there.

That all being said, I'm glad you like it and welcome to the board!

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Post by HistoricalBrazilian »

Thank you king_ghidorah! (I have no idea how to reply to specific messages sob)

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Post by edgaguirus »

The white eyes are what really sell the design.
Those are my principals, and if you don't like them...well, I have others.

You involved me in a public scandal, and I protested. You said, ' do your worst', and that's precisely what I did.

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Post by cloverfan98 »

edgaguirus wrote: Tue Mar 04, 2025 1:38 pm The white eyes are what really sell the design.
Those and the incredibly expressive eyebrows. The facial expressions this Godzilla displays absolutely demonstrate how insidiously EVIL this Godzilla is.

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

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It's very Pumpkinhead-esq.

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

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For so many years, the autisitic child in me has prevented me from appreciating this film as much as the rest of you. The condition I was born with causes me to become very rigid in my views regarding how things should be. In the past I have been a vocal detractor of this film due to changes made to classic kaiju (i.e Ghidorah being good and the whole "lost souls" thing with Godzilla")

I hope you can understand where I'm getting at and I'm open to learning how to appreciate this film. It's just I can get very frustrated when people can't understand where I'm coming from in my arguments.

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

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LegendZilla wrote: Mon Mar 17, 2025 6:11 pm For so many years, the autisitic child in me has prevented me from appreciating this film as much as the rest of you. The condition I was born with causes me to become very rigid in my views regarding how things should be. In the past I have been a vocal detractor of this film due to changes made to classic kaiju (i.e Ghidorah being good and the whole "lost souls" thing with Godzilla")

I hope you can understand where I'm getting at and I'm open to learning how to appreciate this film. It's just I can get very frustrated when people can't understand where I'm coming from in my arguments.
On paper I can understand this logic, but to ask you honestly; wouldn’t most, if not all, the Godzilla films bother you?

The same animalistic Godzilla, in black and white, savagely kills Angurius in Osaka only for the same Godzilla, now in full blown psychedelic color, to ally, for seemingly no reason, against two monsters from space that are destroying a city, for heroics?

And for the record, and so hopefully you can enjoy the film more; Ghidorah is not “good”. It’s explicitly stated in the film that Ghidorah/guardian monsters don’t really care about Japan as a country or people, but rather the land itself.
Spirit Ghidorah 2010 wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:54 pm Anno-san pleasures me more than Yamasaki-san.

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Post by LegendZilla »

LSD Jellyfish wrote: Tue Mar 18, 2025 4:18 am
LegendZilla wrote: Mon Mar 17, 2025 6:11 pm For so many years, the autisitic child in me has prevented me from appreciating this film as much as the rest of you. The condition I was born with causes me to become very rigid in my views regarding how things should be. In the past I have been a vocal detractor of this film due to changes made to classic kaiju (i.e Ghidorah being good and the whole "lost souls" thing with Godzilla")

I hope you can understand where I'm getting at and I'm open to learning how to appreciate this film. It's just I can get very frustrated when people can't understand where I'm coming from in my arguments.
On paper I can understand this logic, but to ask you honestly; wouldn’t most, if not all, the Godzilla films bother you?

The same animalistic Godzilla, in black and white, savagely kills Angurius in Osaka only for the same Godzilla, now in full blown psychedelic color, to ally, for seemingly no reason, against two monsters from space that are destroying a city, for heroics?

And for the record, and so hopefully you can enjoy the film more; Ghidorah is not “good”. It’s explicitly stated in the film that Ghidorah/guardian monsters don’t really care about Japan as a country or people, but rather the land itself.
Even if the guardian monsters did defeat Godzilla, could've they turned on Japan (the nation) eventually? Human civilization always causes nature to run out of balance. Also, I can't help but notice a but of a double standard. I can see why Godzilla's transition from villain to hero in the Showa era could be too much for some to handle, yet why are people okay with such a change with Ghidorah?

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

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It should be pointed out that tons of people are annoyed with GMK Ghidorah's heroic role; it's easily the most controversial part of this movie. For my part, I'm willing to let the weirdness factor go for three reasons:

- It was a one-off role. It's just an alternate universe, essentially. If we can get AUs where Superman takes over the world or Loki is female or the Sequel Trilogy never happened, there's no reason we can't have one story where Ghidorah is the good guy.

- GMK was a good movie. Even if Ghidorah was weird, everything around him was handled well, so I'm willing to forgive one odd choice.

- I understand that Kaneko originally wanted Anguirus to fill the role Ghidorah had, but Toho insisted on using the more marketable Ghidorah. Studio meddling is annoying, but it is what it is. Kaneko still put out the best movie he could under the circumstances, so I'll direct my (limited) frustration at Toho, not Kaneko or GMK.
"Stop wars and no more accidents. I guess that's all I can ask." -Akio

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Post by LegendZilla »

^That makes me wonder if we can get an objectively good film with a heroic Godzilla? Almost every time it happens, it gets mixed results and even if it is good, it's not considered a "serious" film.

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

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LegendZilla wrote: Tue Mar 18, 2025 2:20 pm ^That makes me wonder if we can get an objectively good film with a heroic Godzilla? Almost every time it happens, it gets mixed results and even if it is good, it's not considered a "serious" film.
They’re called Godzilla vs. Hedorah and Terror of Mechagodzilla. They’re serious business. :mugal: :Hedorah:

Added in 3 minutes 36 seconds:
JAGzilla wrote: Tue Mar 18, 2025 1:08 pm It should be pointed out that tons of people are annoyed with GMK Ghidorah's heroic role; it's easily the most controversial part of this movie. For my part, I'm willing to let the weirdness factor go for three reasons:
Yeah but even the word “heroic” is pretty misleading. As mentioned earlier, the guardian monsters do not care about humanity or Japanese civilization. The monsters have a body count both directly and indirectly.

But to add something: Ghidorah never bothered me because it’s a dragon, one that design very easily fits into Japanese mythology. On top of that, Ghidorah is still fighting Godzilla. I’d find it bizarre if Ghidorah and Godzilla were working together against something.
Spirit Ghidorah 2010 wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:54 pm Anno-san pleasures me more than Yamasaki-san.

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Post by JAGzilla »

Ghidorah being a dragon is a good point I forgot to include; he does just fit the theme very well.
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