Godzilla: King of the Monsters - General Discussion

For the discussion of the Legendary Pictures MonsterVerse. This includes Godzilla (2014), Kong: Skull Island and any upcoming films under the MonsterVerse umbrella.
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king_ghidorah
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Re: Godzilla: King of the Monsters - General Discussion

Post by king_ghidorah »

Yeah, for me that’s a bit much.

I’ve always just found the monster fights/action to be horribly filmed and edited. That’s been my biggest criticism since my initial viewing.

This film would possibly be tops for me if the monster stuff was more coherent ala GvK or KSI

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Re: Godzilla: King of the Monsters - General Discussion

Post by Handsome Shrek »

Part of what I like about KotM is how the kaiju scenes feel like they have weight

The fights have never felt awkward to me personally, they feel rightfully gigantic. Same with the CGI: the oil-painting aesthetic really works well in showing the monsters as true forces of nature

Added in 31 minutes 33 seconds:
I will still never understand how this movie gets so much hate, even among the fanbase. A few lame jokes and creative decisions here and there, whatever, but do those tiny missteps really harm the movie THAT much? I just don't understand

I just think it's weird how Avengers Endgame can be one of the most messy, narratively-incoherent, and poorly-made action films ever made and yet still is regarded as some sort of flawless masterpiece five years later. Yet King of the Monsters makes a few dumb decisions and everyone loses their minds.

I will die on the hill that King of the Monsters is a far better movie than Endgame and it's not even close. Endgame isn't even a good MCU movie, let alone a good movie period. Whenever I say this, I always get crucified and accused of "being different just to be different"
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Re: Godzilla: King of the Monsters - General Discussion

Post by JVM »

I feel very obligated to say that the idea the fight scenes were badly "filmed" feels.... off, to describe a fight between entirely CGI characters.

To be honest, I don't think any of the fight scenes in the MV have actually been very good.
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Re: Godzilla: King of the Monsters - General Discussion

Post by king_ghidorah »

Yes, "filmed" may have been the wrong term but you catch my drift.

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Re: Godzilla: King of the Monsters - General Discussion

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Handsome Shrek wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2024 11:46 am I will die on the hill that King of the Monsters is a far better movie than Endgame and it's not even close. Endgame isn't even a good MCU movie, let alone a good movie period. Whenever I say this, I always get crucified and accused of "being different just to be different"
You seem to bring up Endgame almost every time you talk about KOTM despite the fact that hardly anyone else ever mentions it on this forum (the parts I visit anyways). I get that it came around the same time and could easily have played into KOTM's poor theater performance, but this really feels like watching Don Quixote's valiant charge against windmills. I certainly admire your passion, but I'm not sure your opponent is real, and if they are they don't seem to be active on TohoKingdom.
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Re: Godzilla: King of the Monsters - General Discussion

Post by TheInfiniteAeon »

I don't like how Handsome Shrek downsizes KOTM's flaws as "tiny missteps", especially when it comes to the human story trying and failing miserably to inject tragic drama when it revolves around a plan and motive as ill-conceived and executed even worse than Thanos (aren't we all tired of the same old 'humans are a disease, culling is the cure' trope?). The characters act quite ineptly in order for the story to proceed along the writer's desired path, i.e. the Antarctica sequence. And with the characters doing foolish things, the environmental themes end up being swung around worse than a kaiju held by their tail, feeling less naturally integrated into the narrative and more forced in, lacking the nuance and depth needed to actually mean something resonant (typical of Hollywood writers).

I must clarify that the idea of managing the environmental impacts of kaiju coexisting with civilization sounds like a truly fascinating concept, but you're not gonna get that in a modern Hollywood blockbuster pandering to an action-craving, brain-switched-off audience. What did we get instead? "Let the giant monsters run loose to heal the world with magic life-giving radiation." I've read fairy tales for children with deeper meaning than this.

The monochromatic visuals, mediocre fights and hamfisted fanservice are all smoke and mirrors veiled over this shoddy writing foundation. I made this meme in jest.
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Re: Godzilla: King of the Monsters - General Discussion

Post by JVM »

I know the staff would never agree to this for obvious reasons, but I do really wish we could close this thread when there's no meaningful discussion left to be had on this film. It's basically "every single thing about it sucks" (correct) vs one 13-year-old screeching and one adult, never at the same time, with some overlap in that both sides hate Hollywood and Marvel specifically, every time it opens back up.
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Re: Godzilla: King of the Monsters - General Discussion

Post by JAGzilla »

For better and worse, KOTM is a landmark movie in the Renaissance era for several reasons. It's going to continue to be a focal point of discussion on modern Godzilla for decades to come, whether the conversation is 'meaningful' or not.
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Re: Godzilla: King of the Monsters - General Discussion

Post by Jomei »

"We need to lower the age limit. TOO MANY MONSTERVERSE HATERS!!"

I'm starting to think I have one of the more middle-of-the-road takes on this movie, appreciating most of its visuals and action scenes while finding most of the rest a bit of a slog.

I also don't really like Avengers Endgame that much, FWIW. Part of why some might find KoTM impressive is their frame of reference is relatively limited. There's a lot more to movies than just what came out from huge studios in the past ten years.
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Re: Godzilla: King of the Monsters - General Discussion

Post by JAGzilla »

Jomei wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2024 4:41 am I'm starting to think I have one of the more middle-of-the-road takes on this movie, appreciating most of its visuals and action scenes while finding most of the rest a bit of a slog.

I also don't really like Avengers Endgame that much, FWIW. Part of why some might find KoTM impressive is their frame of reference is relatively limited. There's a lot more to movies than just what came out from huge studios in the past ten years.
All of this. KOTM is neither as good nor as bad as the extremists would have you believe, and Infinity War/Endgame was uninteresting in some important ways. Way better than it could've been, but not some kind of masterpiece.

And yes, limited frame of reference is a constant issue among younger fans; they'll grow out of it, mostly. Although the increasing ease of sliding into a box of particular kinds of content and being strongarmed into staying there by algorithms might make that more difficult than it used to be.

That said, I'm glad so many younger fans have a movie like KOTM that really clicks for them and stands above the rest. Every generation of G-Fans gets a few movies like that, and the surrounding generations sees those movies in a different light. King Kong vs. Godzilla and Mothra vs. Godzilla are beloved classics among the Showa kids; later generations are more likely to sneer at Kong's bad suit and the Two Baby Worms debacle. vs. Destoroyah is the height of kaiju cinema for Heisei kids; older fans see Ifukube magically turning cardboard into gold. Final Wars is probably the most polarizing movie in the franchise, cool as hell or unwatchable slop. And today's kids have KOTM.
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Re: Godzilla: King of the Monsters - General Discussion

Post by HedorahIsBestGirl »

I find it funny that KOTM has become the most controversial MonsterVerse film since, from where I'm sitting, it's the least worthy of controversy. Godzilla '14 and both GvK films make many stylistic choices that were bound to polarize the fandom. Skull Island is a thoroughly inoffensive, light film that I think anyone who doesn't have a huge stick up their ass can enjoy, whether they think it's a truly great movie or just a fun way to fill 2 hours. KOTM is just very straightforward blockbuster fare that uses the Godzilla IP. It doesn't try to hide its monsters from the audience as much as possible, frustrating those who want to see as much Godzilla as possible. It doesn't go full-blown over-the-top with 350-foot Titans jumping around as if weightless in zero gravity, frustrating those who want to see kaiju taken more seriously. It's got a generic globe-trotting plot, lots of CGI-overloaded action, a booming Zimmer-esq score, some lame jokes; pretty much everything we've come to expect from $200-million-budget Hollywood fare. I was very underwhelmed in my first viewing and continue to feel lukewarm about this movie, which is why I'm mystified as to how so many worship it as some breakthrough in kaiju cinema and so many others insist that it's an abomination that diminished the very meaning of the word "cinema" by existing. JAGzilla is definitely right that the movie clicks with a lot of kids, I'm just surprised to see so many older fans have such strong opinions on KOTM.
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Re: Godzilla: King of the Monsters - General Discussion

Post by Gojira18 »

I'm definitely on the mixed-leaning-positive end of the spectrum with KOTM. It does a good number of things remarkably well (its portrayals of the individual Kaiju, the musical score, the action, some individual characters) and falls flat on its face in other areas (Oxygen Destroyer, a lot of the humor, the villain plot). The Wingard films definitely make me appreciate this movie a fair bit more with its ambition and passion behind it, even if it's by no means a masterpiece. Much like G14, it feels like a movie that needed another rewrite to really iron out all the kinks, but its high highs make it worth a rewatch.
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Re: Godzilla: King of the Monsters - General Discussion

Post by JVM »

Jomei wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2024 4:41 amI'm starting to think I have one of the more middle-of-the-road takes on this movie, appreciating most of its visuals and action scenes while finding most of the rest a bit of a slog.
My experience for a while was if you said something about the visuals or action being good, the immediate counter-argument was the human story was just so bad it ruined the film by extension, and the way the action scenes are framed is still a pretty big sore spot for a lot of people in my experience. (None of this is to stay you are not entitled to your opinion.)
Jomei wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2024 4:41 amI also don't really like Avengers Endgame that much, FWIW. Part of why some might find KoTM impressive is their frame of reference is relatively limited. There's a lot more to movies than just what came out from huge studios in the past ten years.
I mean, I sort of get it, but this is actually one of the things I've always found a bit off about film discussion -- we're all going to have different reference pools that influence which movies feel a certain way to us. I don't think most people at twelve are going out of their way to work through a defined canon. The objectivity of film seems to work from a sort of presumption that we're measuring ourselves against the entirety of film canon but for most people, something they see when they're ten is going to stick with them for being their first exposure to something even if it's not original.

I'm fine with Avengers: Endgame. I don't feel like we need to all compare it just because a specific member can't praise GKOTM without comparing them, a member who also has exhibited an ideological conviction against Marvel, Disney and Hollywood as a whole and therefore is probably not commenting specifically on the one film. The two films have virtually nothing in common between GKOTM and Avengers: Endgame.
JAGzilla wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2024 6:13 amAnd yes, limited frame of reference is a constant issue among younger fans; they'll grow out of it, mostly. Although the increasing ease of sliding into a box of particular kinds of content and being strongarmed into staying there by algorithms might make that more difficult than it used to be.
I think this is absolutely going to be a thing in the future, personally. I think film nerds overestimate how many people take an interest in a back catalog or in casually watching older films. A buddy of mine who was a big film nerd in college seems to never watch anything more than five or ten years old now unless it's nostalgic; I'm sure if you pressed him he'd still pay lip service to old film, but it's clear he's skewed. I have friends who cringe at movies from the '90s because of fashion choices.
That said, I'm glad so many younger fans have a movie like KOTM that really clicks for them and stands above the rest. Every generation of G-Fans gets a few movies like that, and the surrounding generations sees those movies in a different light. King Kong vs. Godzilla and Mothra vs. Godzilla are beloved classics among the Showa kids; later generations are more likely to sneer at Kong's bad suit and the Two Baby Worms debacle. vs. Destoroyah is the height of kaiju cinema for Heisei kids; older fans see Ifukube magically turning cardboard into gold. Final Wars is probably the most polarizing movie in the franchise, cool as hell or unwatchable slop. And today's kids have KOTM.
I definitely agree with the principle of what you're saying here, although in my mind it really feels like Godzilla vs. Kong was that movie.



HedorahIsBestGirl wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2024 7:38 am I find it funny that KOTM has become the most controversial MonsterVerse film since, from where I'm sitting, it's the least worthy of controversy. Godzilla '14 and both GvK films make many stylistic choices that were bound to polarize the fandom. Skull Island is a thoroughly inoffensive, light film that I think anyone who doesn't have a huge stick up their ass can enjoy, whether they think it's a truly great movie or just a fun way to fill 2 hours. KOTM is just very straightforward blockbuster fare that uses the Godzilla IP. It doesn't try to hide its monsters from the audience as much as possible, frustrating those who want to see as much Godzilla as possible. It doesn't go full-blown over-the-top with 350-foot Titans jumping around as if weightless in zero gravity, frustrating those who want to see kaiju taken more seriously. It's got a generic globe-trotting plot, lots of CGI-overloaded action, a booming Zimmer-esq score, some lame jokes; pretty much everything we've come to expect from $200-million-budget Hollywood fare. I was very underwhelmed in my first viewing and continue to feel lukewarm about this movie, which is why I'm mystified as to how so many worship it as some breakthrough in kaiju cinema and so many others insist that it's an abomination that diminished the very meaning of the word "cinema" by existing. JAGzilla is definitely right that the movie clicks with a lot of kids, I'm just surprised to see so many older fans have such strong opinions on KOTM.
I never never seen a movies as insanely damned by faint praise as I have right here. All of this "straightforward blockbuster fare" and "CGI-overloaded action" and "jumping around as if weightless in zero gravity" and "$200-million-budget Hollywood fare" is exactly what people hate the most about the film industry right now. They don't want reheated standard blockbusters and that's why a lot of Big IP is floundering right now. A major reason GvK outclasses Gkotm that I saw was that a lot of people felt like Gkotm tried too hard to pretend it was something more than a shitty monster movie, while GvK owned that it was a monster movie and allowed the human actors to act as support for the kaiju.
Gojira18 wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2024 8:25 am I'm definitely on the mixed-leaning-positive end of the spectrum with KOTM. It does a good number of things remarkably well (its portrayals of the individual Kaiju, the musical score, the action, some individual characters) and falls flat on its face in other areas (Oxygen Destroyer, a lot of the humor, the villain plot). The Wingard films definitely make me appreciate this movie a fair bit more with its ambition and passion behind it, even if it's by no means a masterpiece. Much like G14, it feels like a movie that needed another rewrite to really iron out all the kinks, but its high highs make it worth a rewatch.
What comparison would you draw between Gkotm and the Wingard films? I'm all ears for this conversation. It definitely feels like something about GxK has caused some reassessment towards Gkotm but I've not seen anyone really break it down so far.
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Re: Godzilla: King of the Monsters - General Discussion

Post by HedorahIsBestGirl »

JVM wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2024 5:33 pm
I never never seen a movies as insanely damned by faint praise as I have right here. All of this "straightforward blockbuster fare" and "CGI-overloaded action" and "jumping around as if weightless in zero gravity" and "$200-million-budget Hollywood fare" is exactly what people hate the most about the film industry right now. They don't want reheated standard blockbusters and that's why a lot of Big IP is floundering right now. A major reason GvK outclasses Gkotm that I saw was that a lot of people felt like Gkotm tried too hard to pretend it was something more than a shitty monster movie, while GvK owned that it was a monster movie and allowed the human actors to act as support for the kaiju.
Highlighted part is where you're wrong. "They" absolutely want to see all that. That's why absolute dogshit movies like Rise of Skywalker and Age of Extinction make over a billion dollars. The people who don't like this stuff are people like us; nerds on forums who feel like our favorite franchises are being diminished. You clearly feel that way about KOTM, I feel that way about GxK. The general audiences don't give a fuck. They may not always like the films, but enough of them will still pay the price of admission for these kinds of generic action movies to continue getting pumped out by just about every major studio.

As for Big IP floundering, that's also definitely been exaggerated on forums like this. The way people talk, the MCU is on death's door; Deadpool & Wolverine is headed for $1.5 billion right now. Solo aside, all of the Disney Star Wars films were huge successes too. A hundred million SW nerds seething about them on the Internet won't change that. I can piss on GxK all day but it was still fairly successful. Even KOTM, which I've seen labeled a "box office bomb," was far from a total failure. Generic Hollywood fare makes money because the majority want to see colorful turn-off-your-brain movies; the vocal minority (many of us on here included) are the ones who are sick of this stuff.
What comparison would you draw between Gkotm and the Wingard films? I'm all ears for this conversation. It definitely feels like something about GxK has caused some reassessment towards Gkotm but I've not seen anyone really break it down so far.
I know you asked Gojira18 but I'll bite (and I know the he and I have the same views of GxK). I wouldn't say GxK made me reevaluate KOTM as a great movie or anything, but I do consider it the much better film and would've preferred more films of its kind than films like GxK. I actually think GvK is the happy medium between them, I (mostly) agree with your sentiment that it embraced being a mediocre monster movie and succeeded at doing some things well. GxK, however, is complete shit and I'll directly compare it to KOTM to explain why I think KOTM isn't as bad.

1. Villains
A good antagonist can save generic blockbuster movies like this (just look at Thanos) and I think King Ghidorah somewhat saves KOTM. While he's undeniably been fanwanked, he got an epic introduction and was established as a threat through his actions; he fucks up Godzilla more than once, he rallies other Titans to go on a global rampage, his very presence creates a massive tempest. He gives the film a sense of urgency. Skar King and Shimo do no such thing. We're told - in one of the worst exposition dump scenes in recent memory - how very scary they are but we never see it. Shimo's power amounts to hurting Kong's arm and making a snowcloud. Skar King can't beat Kong one on one, much less Godzilla, and his army is no match for Mothra. The threat never feels real and it doesn't help that the villains are clumsily introduced over halfway into the film and get almost no build-up.

2. Human Characters
KOTM at least tries with it humans. Does it succeed? Not really. Emma Russell's motivations are ridiculous and attempts to make her character sympathetic despite deliberately initiating a kaiju apocalypse fall flat. But it did try and in moments it succeeded. Mark and Madison had some agency as characters. The humans actually did things. GvK, I'll say, did strike a good balance where the humans do some things but the main focus is on the monsters. GxK fails miserably. The humans are literally just there for exposition and nothing else. They don't do a damn thing of importance. It's one thing to give them a secondary role, it's another for them to exist purely so that Ilene can read an ancient story off of a fucking temple wall. I will always take a failed attempt over a lack of trying, and that's where I seem to disagree with some folks around here. GxK didn't try at all and it just comes off as unforgivably lazy to me.

3. Action
Okay, so let's put ourselves into the mindsets of casual fans and say we only care about the big monsters fighting. GxK still sucks sweaty balls. The fights just look dumb. They're weightless and nonsensical. I've watched the movie twice and I can remember exactly two individual moments from the final battle: everyone jumping at the start (which I remember for being so fucking stupid) and Kong throwing Skar King so Godzilla can tail bash him, which is also pretty stupid. KOTM got shit on for being too dark and/or rainy but I actually remember moments from that final battle in a good way. Ghidorah sky-dropping Godzilla, Ghidorah's wing lightning, Godzilla's burning mode activating, Mothra skewering Rodan. There were some genuinely cool moments in there. My eyes just glazed over watching GxK's final battle that felt like a cutscene in a bad video game.

4. Music
The Godzilla franchise is known for its excellent music, which makes it all the more frustrating that Junkie XL's scores for GvK and especially GxK are the absolute worst in the entire franchise. I cannot remember a single piece of music from GxK. Not one. It's so generic and forgettable that it literally goes in one ear and out the other. Bear McCreary's work for KOTM was far more memorable. I can actually remember individual pieces of music and at what point during the film they played. They fit the tone of the film and elevate particular scenes and moments; exactly what a good movie score is supposed to do. And the exact opposite of what Junkie XL's nothingburger scores do.

5. Gravitas
KOTM had weight to it. The film mostly took itself seriously, aside from some dumb jokes here and there to grant some leniency. It set out to be epic and, at least in terms of stakes, I'd say it succeeded. Ghidorah clearly represents a very real threat to all life on the planet and Godzilla seems to be our only real hope of stopping him. Serizawa's sacrifice was a genuinely great moment. GxK treats almost everything like a fucking joke, then fails to be convincing the rare times it tries to be serious. Special mention to how we turn a man getting eaten alive be a carnivorous tree into a fucking joke, and apparently that's okay because he was grumpy. But then we're supposed to buy that SK and his icy pet are world-enders and, as I already mentioned, the film failed to sell it at all, so we're left with a tedious final act that holds no weight.

6. Creature Design
I will acknowledge we're delving farther into subjectivity with this one, but I still feel confident saying KOTM's kaiju/Titan designs are much better than GxK's. King Ghidorah and Rodan both look great; they're true to their classic designs while still featuring changes to allow them to look their best when computer-generated. Mothra has grown on me... not my favorite but respectable. The other Titans like Scylla and Behemoth are unique enough to be memorable. In GxK, our big villains are an emaciated orangutan and that creature Obi-Wan rides in Episode III with ice powers. Nothing about these designs is particularly distinctive or interesting. That goes double for most of the other Hollow Earth creatures. None of the various other great apes look anywhere near as good as their normal-sized counterparts in the new Planet of the Apes films. The flying snakes are pretty cool, I guess? Or how about Tiamat, who's literally just "we put glowing pink fins on Manda?" Sadly, she's probably the best new creature in the film. But of course, the worst offender is Godzilla himself. The KOTM Godzilla design built off the G14 design, mainly changing the spines and tail, and was arguably an improvement. Evolved Godzilla just gives me the ick. His proportions are all out of whack, the extra spines on the tail and elbows look cheesy, and I don't dig the pink. I just don't. This is hands-down the worst live-action Godzilla design since... fuck, probably ever.
Last edited by HedorahIsBestGirl on Tue Oct 08, 2024 6:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Godzilla: King of the Monsters - General Discussion

Post by Olzh26 »

Gojira18 wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2024 4:45 am Yeah no, putting it under GxK and Pacific Rim Uprising is just a categorically bad take. As is GxK over fucking Pacific Rim
you are right, i may have rated pacific rim too low. i admit, monster action it showed is exemplary. fights, scale, cgi, it's iconic. but the thing is, i didn't go to see this movie in theaters, unlike gxk and rampage, so it didn't make that same impression on me. i also want to note that i don't really like that plot and setting with alien invasion with monster-puppets, and robots opposing them, it's just not my cup of tea. i prefer action with big animals in the lead roles, like gxk and rampage. but i will definitely rewatch first pacific rim soon. regarding Uprising, movies haters clearly exaggerated the loss of monsters scale. they feel a little faster in some scenes, but not that much. this also applies mainly to the robots, and it makes sense because the sequel introduces new, more flexible models. On other hand monsters feel the same in terms of scale for me. and yes, uprising definitely has a better sense of scale and heaviness than whole last mv - kotm, gvk and especially gxk

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Re: Godzilla: King of the Monsters - General Discussion

Post by StreamOfKaijuness »

As an American millennial who had already been a Godzilla fan for more than 20 years when G:KotM was released, I find a lot to like in it. I remember when Hollywood's approach to Godzilla was so dismissive of the character's cinematic roots that he could only be adapted in the form of a giant velociraptor that flees from danger, so I'll always appreciate the significance of seeing Godzilla, Mothra, Rodan and King Ghidorah faithfully brought to life in one movie with all of the CGI that a $170m Hollywood budget can buy from six different visual effects companies. Beyond that, I like the talented ensemble of eclectic characters. I like the wide variety of action sequences and monster battles, which I have no problem following through all of the shaky framing and weather effects. I like the score, the humor, the consistent sense of awe to the monsters and the brisk pace to the whole adventure. I think it's a lot of fun.

Still, my own enjoyment as a Godzilla fan aside, this movie is, stylistically and structurally, such an obviously generic cut-&-paste Hollywood production that I don't think it's hard to see why it didn't impress most movie critics, unlike G'14 and Kong: Skull Island before it. The super-saturated color palette and the unsteady cinematography are clearly derivative of Michael Bay's Transformers films in particular. The most unique thing about Godzilla: King of the Monsters is just the specific monsters that it includes, as it's otherwise a movie compiled of cliched beats that have been done a million times before. From the opening scene depicting fiery ruins while a man shouts in slow-motion, to the characters breathing a sigh of relief when Godzilla seems to stop his intimidation display only for him to then "surprise" the audience with a jump-scare by swimming right past the glass, to Mark and Emma stopping the humvee and asking Barnes to repeat his last sentence that gave them a sudden epiphany, to all of the scenes of people pointing guns at each other, and everything in between, this is a movie that blends in with other Hollywood fare in all the worst ways. It's also a really dumb movie, accelerating what has remained a consistent trend of each MonsterVerse flick being dumber than its predecessor. G'14 made a real effort to approach the story realistically and not dumb things down for the most part, with its flimsiest aspects coming down to the magically disappearing effects of EMP short-circuiting and Ford's plot armor repeatedly making him the only survivor of monster encounters. K:SI took a more fantastical approach, and introduced the very silly concept of the Hollow Earth, but it wasn't much dumber than G'14. With G:KotM, however, we're officially off the deep end with giant monsters healing environments with life-giving radiation, elaborate super-science tech that doesn't exist, and monsters bowing down to Godzilla to literalize his moniker of King of the Monsters.

None of that prevents me from liking the movie any time I watch it but I can see why other Godzilla fans might dislike it for any of those reasons. I can also see why general audiences who don't know or care who Mothra, Rodan or King Ghidorah are would probably not find nearly as much to like about this movie as I do.
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Gojira18
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Re: Godzilla: King of the Monsters - General Discussion

Post by Gojira18 »

HedorahIsBestGirl wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2024 7:43 pm
What comparison would you draw between Gkotm and the Wingard films? I'm all ears for this conversation. It definitely feels like something about GxK has caused some reassessment towards Gkotm but I've not seen anyone really break it down so far.
I know you asked Gojira18 but I'll bite (and I know the he and I have the same views of GxK). I wouldn't say GxK made me reevaluate KOTM as a great movie or anything, but I do consider it the much better film and would've preferred more films of its kind than films like GxK. I actually think GvK is the happy medium between them, I (mostly) agree with your sentiment that it embraced being a mediocre monster movie and succeeded at doing some things well. GxK, however, is complete shit and I'll directly compare it to KOTM to explain why I think KOTM isn't as bad.

1. Villains
A good antagonist can save generic blockbuster movies like this (just look at Thanos) and I think King Ghidorah somewhat saves KOTM. While he's undeniably been fanwanked, he got an epic introduction and was established as a threat through his actions; he fucks up Godzilla more than once, he rallies other Titans to go on a global rampage, his very presence creates a massive tempest. He gives the film a sense of urgency. Skar King and Shimo do no such thing. We're told - in one of the worst exposition dump scenes in recent memory - how very scary they are but we never see it. Shimo's power amounts to hurting Kong's arm and making a snowcloud. Skar King can't beat Kong one on one, much less Godzilla, and his army is no match for Mothra. The threat never feels real and it doesn't help that the villains are clumsily introduced over halfway into the film and get almost no build-up.

2. Human Characters
KOTM at least tries with it humans. Does it succeed? Not really. Emma Russell's motivations are ridiculous and attempts to make her character sympathetic despite deliberately initiating a kaiju apocalypse fall flat. But it did try and in moments it succeeded. Mark and Madison had some agency as characters. The humans actually did things. GvK, I'll say, did strike a good balance where the humans do some things but the main focus is on the monsters. GxK fails miserably. The humans are literally just there for exposition and nothing else. They don't do a damn thing of importance. It's one thing to give them a secondary role, it's another for them to exist purely so that Ilene can read an ancient story off of a fucking temple wall. I will always take a failed attempt over a lack of trying, and that's where I seem to disagree with some folks around here. GxK didn't try at all and it just comes off as unforgivably lazy to me.

3. Action
Okay, so let's put ourselves into the mindsets of casual fans and say we only care about the big monsters fighting. GxK still sucks sweaty balls. The fights just look dumb. They're weightless and nonsensical. I've watched the movie twice and I can remember exactly two individual moments from the final battle: everyone jumping at the start (which I remember for being so fucking stupid) and Kong throwing Skar King so Godzilla can tail bash him, which is also pretty stupid. KOTM got shit on for being too dark and/or rainy but I actually remember moments from that final battle in a good way. Ghidorah sky-dropping Godzilla, Ghidorah's wing lightning, Godzilla's burning mode activating, Mothra skewering Rodan. There were some genuinely cool moments in there. My eyes just glazed over watching GxK's final battle that felt like a cutscene in a bad video game.

4. Music
The Godzilla franchise is known for its excellent music, which makes it all the more frustrating that Junkie XL's scores for GvK and especially GxK are the absolute worst in the entire franchise. I cannot remember a single piece of music from GxK. Not one. It's so generic and forgettable that it literally goes in one ear and out the other. Bear McCreary's work for KOTM was far more memorable. I can actually remember individual pieces of music and at what point during the film they played. They fit the tone of the film and elevate particular scenes and moments; exactly what a good movie score is supposed to do. And the exact opposite of what Junkie XL's nothingburger scores do.

5. Gravitas
KOTM had weight to it. The film mostly took itself seriously, aside from some dumb jokes here and there to grant some leniency. It set out to be epic and, at least in terms of stakes, I'd say it succeeded. Ghidorah clearly represents a very real threat to all life on the planet and Godzilla seems to be our only real hope of stopping him. Serizawa's sacrifice was a genuinely great moment. GxK treats almost everything like a fucking joke, then fails to be convincing the rare times it tries to be serious. Special mention to how we turn a man getting eaten alive be a carnivorous tree into a fucking joke, and apparently that's okay because he was grumpy. But then we're supposed to buy that SK and his icy pet are world-enders and, as I already mentioned, the film failed to sell it at all, so we're left with a tedious final act that holds no weight.

6. Creature Design
I will acknowledge we're delving farther into subjectivity with this one, but I still feel confident saying KOTM's kaiju/Titan designs are much better than GxK's. King Ghidorah and Rodan both look great; they're true to their classic designs while still featuring changes to allow them to look their best when computer-generated. Mothra has grown on me... not my favorite but respectable. The other Titans like Scylla and Behemoth are unique enough to be memorable. In GxK, our big villains are an emaciated orangutan and that creature Obi-Wan rides in Episode III with ice powers. Nothing about these designs is particularly distinctive or interesting. That goes double for most of the other Hollow Earth creatures. None of the various other great apes look anywhere near as good as their normal-sized counterparts in the new Planet of the Apes films. The flying snakes are pretty cool, I guess? Or how about Tiamat, who's literally just "we put glowing pink fins on Manda?" Sadly, she's probably the best new creature in the film. But of course, the worst offender is Godzilla himself. The KOTM Godzilla design built off the G14 design, mainly changing the spines and tail, and was arguably an improvement. Evolved Godzilla just gives me the ick. His proportions are all out of whack, the extra spines on the tail and elbows look cheesy, and I don't dig the pink. I just don't. This is hands-down the worst live-action Godzilla design since... fuck, probably ever.
Ditto. To add onto this, it makes a legitimate effort to try and explore the world that G14 and KSI set up. The tech advancement is too quick in just 5 years, but seeing more of Monarch's inner workings and how the world is evolving to the existence of Godzilla and the other Titans is something I gotta give KOTM props for. In addition, it opened the door to cool story ideas that could retroactively fix a lot of this movie's flaws. I can't fault GvK TOO much on that aspect because of the behind the scenes drama, but GxK has no such excuse and pretty much throws away any and all cool ideas and replaces them with the most generic, dull story beats you could've had in a Kaiju movie. On top of that, idgaf if this is a dead horse, I'm making sure this horse is ash at this point: It's pretty much just a Kong solo movie with Godzilla shoehorned in. Gone is the Godzilla in G14 and KOTM that literally made everyone go silent with his presence and have legit gravitas, now we have a glorified attack dog for Kong. I can't say Evolved Godzilla is the WORST live action design when SoG and G98 still exist, but it's a definite close third place
"[GxK] feels like a proof of concept for Legendary to make a film entirely by AI. Monster fights are the one thing it offers and it fucks them mostly too, every other aspect of the film is dogshit and it seems to genuinely mock its audience for watching it."
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Re: Godzilla: King of the Monsters - General Discussion

Post by JVM »

It's very, very tempting to try to argue with everyone here's points, as I am more familiar than anyone with the argument against it. I am tired though and don't actually want the fight. So I'm going to be earnest and personal.

I'm going to admit with some embarrassment that I passionately loved GKOTM when it first came out and on that first viewing it brought me a lot of joy. It felt like the kind of kaiju film I would have made if I had been a film director (thankful that didn't happen) and while I felt there were a couple of key flaws, that didn't take away from the initial experience at all to me. It gave me too many things I thought I had wanted from the franchise, and this was back when I thought of Hollywood blockbusters more as a set of limitations for creatives than as a tool to smother them. Post-release, I found almost every single discussion I participated in after the film came out was miserable, every social rewatch was met with lukewarm comments and with no hyperbole, every aspect of the film seemed to have an effective and convincing counter-argument - be it the monster selection, the human story, the music, the setting, the world-building, the use of nuclear weapons, the action, and so forth. I didn't meet a single other G-fan who liked the damn thing. My interest fizzled slowly over time and each unsuccessful rewatch took away from what I liked about the film as the flaws became more apparent. I was long out of love with the film and starting to realize the criticism of the Serizawa scene that I had previously dismissed was completely justified and a betrayal of the character, and that the ecological themes I had previously seen in the film weren't really there to begin with. The contrast with Godzilla vs. Kong, which I had several significant issues with at release that were largely shouted down as being a killjoy, and being told very consistently how much it was vastly preferable toward and better-made than GKOTM, forced me to do a lot of soul-searching and reassess a lot of what I had previously wanted out of the genre and what I saw from those films' responses as to what audiences wanted out of the genre, and I realized how superior the latter film really was and how much more talented a filmmaker Wingard is compared to Dougherty with a better understanding of genre convention. I personally think Godzilla x Kong: The New Empire meets these expectations fairly well, especially in regards to how it utilized the human characters and how Wingard is able to make the monsters feel like actual characters. I fully expect that a lot of these reddit kids will grow up and see GKOTM for the trash it is someday, too, and maybe some of them will be as embarrassed as I am to have previously supported it.
I used to be a lot more optimistic and outgoing, believe it or not. I used to actually be passionate about this stuff.

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Re: Godzilla: King of the Monsters - General Discussion

Post by Kaijucifer »

TheInfiniteAeon wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2024 6:50 pm I don't like how Handsome Shrek downsizes KOTM's flaws as "tiny missteps", especially when it comes to the human story trying and failing miserably to inject tragic drama when it revolves around a plan and motive as ill-conceived and executed even worse than Thanos (aren't we all tired of the same old 'humans are a disease, culling is the cure' trope?). The characters act quite ineptly in order for the story to proceed along the writer's desired path, i.e. the Antarctica sequence. And with the characters doing foolish things, the environmental themes end up being swung around worse than a kaiju held by their tail, feeling less naturally integrated into the narrative and more forced in, lacking the nuance and depth needed to actually mean something resonant (typical of Hollywood writers).

I must clarify that the idea of managing the environmental impacts of kaiju coexisting with civilization sounds like a truly fascinating concept, but you're not gonna get that in a modern Hollywood blockbuster pandering to an action-craving, brain-switched-off audience. What did we get instead? "Let the giant monsters run loose to heal the world with magic life-giving radiation." I've read fairy tales for children with deeper meaning than this.

The monochromatic visuals, mediocre fights and hamfisted fanservice are all smoke and mirrors veiled over this shoddy writing foundation. I made this meme in jest.
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Uh, Culling was not Emma' goal, that was a side effect. The titans are the antidote to the damage we cause. They would fix everything faster than we could destroy it essentially. Basically ensuring balance. What she couldnt have foreseen was that Monster Zero was NOT of this world and what it actually was. Thats the ultimate flaw in her plan for HUMAN-TITAN SYMBIOSIS. Her plan was literally just to have man and titan live together. It was Alan Jonah who decided to twist that plan into an eradication plan and made Emma look worse in the process. This movie is as misunderstood by the fandom as Godzilla vs King Ghidorah is by those who call it pro imperial in its messaging. Nobody actually thinks, they just look at the surface and snort and rub their noses in posh snobbish contempt, thinking about it no further.
Newsflash to those people. Godzilla is the punishment for imperial ideology in that movie. He is literally there to threaten japan not to regress, or he will destroy them.

For King of the Monsters. The characters in antartica are very much out of their element and very much caught in the worst place to be during the worst time. The fact that some of them survived that event at all is miraculous, to say that they were stupid and contrived is absurd. Godzilla is not prepared for this fight, hes in a place that doesnt have an ideal environment for combat, his opponent is stronger than him out of bed and is parrying him easily and hes getting bodied in such close proximity to the human cast. We see what happens. THEY SHOULD ALL BE DEAD.
The environment themes are not lost at all. The movie revolves around us usually breaking things when we try to fix it because we still dont understand it. IE, a metaphor for how governments of the world come up with intensely flawed ways to protect the environment but end up damaging it further with the ideas they put forth to stop the damage. To say its poorly utilized, forced in and not nuanced is pretty untrue.
Yes, let the ANIMALS WHO ARE PART OF THE WORLD ECOSYSTEM FIX THAT ECOSYSTEM(staring at Yellowstone National Park and other wildlife preserves where nature is flourishing once wolves were reintroduced) is such a bad fairy tale idea frfr no cap! *intense sarcasm*

The visuals are incredible. The blue filter looks awesome and I will not hear otherwise :Spacegodzilla:! its a straight up VIBE. Tired of hearing people use a potential positive and frame it as a pure negative. Blue filters are not common at all and when used almost never look this good. That is not an objective crique at all. It, like my view on it, is entirely subjective and cannot be used against the film, its fully preferential.
The fights are the best we have had in the monsterverse in terms of showcasing Godzilla's power and traditional fighting style. GxK has nothing at all to boast about in that regard, and GvK is...mixed but a runner up. G14 is okay but could have been way better in terms of fighting, but i get it, it was the early 2010s and weird naturalistic scenes and fights were all the rage at the time. Back to KotM? The way they fight is awesome. Motion capture gave it the feel of a man in suit movie, with incredible scale, hard impacts, decent explosions. Every time a Titan was incapicitated, it felt like a big hit. Can you say the same about the sequels?
"hamfisted fan service"? Brother do i even need to hit this point? This take is so hot even the sun is melting. The writing is fine. Fans just need to actually think about this hollywood blockbuster for once and maybe theyll finally see the forest for the trees. And then theyll understand why its so beloved.

Added in 1 minute 43 seconds:
JVM wrote: Sun Oct 06, 2024 7:43 pm I know the staff would never agree to this for obvious reasons, but I do really wish we could close this thread when there's no meaningful discussion left to be had on this film. It's basically "every single thing about it sucks" (correct) vs one 13-year-old screeching and one adult, never at the same time, with some overlap in that both sides hate Hollywood and Marvel specifically, every time it opens back up.
Your savior has arrived, the man who actually has points to bring up and counter every point naysayers will bring up.

Added in 12 minutes 16 seconds:
JVM wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2024 6:40 pm It's very, very tempting to try to argue with everyone here's points, as I am more familiar than anyone with the argument against it. I am tired though and don't actually want the fight. So I'm going to be earnest and personal.

I'm going to admit with some embarrassment that I passionately loved GKOTM when it first came out and on that first viewing it brought me a lot of joy. It felt like the kind of kaiju film I would have made if I had been a film director (thankful that didn't happen) and while I felt there were a couple of key flaws, that didn't take away from the initial experience at all to me. It gave me too many things I thought I had wanted from the franchise, and this was back when I thought of Hollywood blockbusters more as a set of limitations for creatives than as a tool to smother them. Post-release, I found almost every single discussion I participated in after the film came out was miserable, every social rewatch was met with lukewarm comments and with no hyperbole, every aspect of the film seemed to have an effective and convincing counter-argument - be it the monster selection, the human story, the music, the setting, the world-building, the use of nuclear weapons, the action, and so forth. I didn't meet a single other G-fan who liked the damn thing. My interest fizzled slowly over time and each unsuccessful rewatch took away from what I liked about the film as the flaws became more apparent. I was long out of love with the film and starting to realize the criticism of the Serizawa scene that I had previously dismissed was completely justified and a betrayal of the character, and that the ecological themes I had previously seen in the film weren't really there to begin with. The contrast with Godzilla vs. Kong, which I had several significant issues with at release that were largely shouted down as being a killjoy, and being told very consistently how much it was vastly preferable toward and better-made than GKOTM, forced me to do a lot of soul-searching and reassess a lot of what I had previously wanted out of the genre and what I saw from those films' responses as to what audiences wanted out of the genre, and I realized how superior the latter film really was and how much more talented a filmmaker Wingard is compared to Dougherty with a better understanding of genre convention. I personally think Godzilla x Kong: The New Empire meets these expectations fairly well, especially in regards to how it utilized the human characters and how Wingard is able to make the monsters feel like actual characters. I fully expect that a lot of these reddit kids will grow up and see GKOTM for the trash it is someday, too, and maybe some of them will be as embarrassed as I am to have previously supported it.
My brother, what have they done to you? How did you let cynicism butcher your taste this badly? Youve been gaslit, friend. HORRIBLY. Ive never seen someone get utterly demoralized by the herd so hard that they changed their true thoughts this much. Only to shift to an even worse position? If KotM is bad by their standards, then christ on a pike GvK and GxK are trash and excrement by comparison.
"The day of the Crystal King will arrive like a hunter in the night. The King has been burdened by the sins of many...and the greatest of sinners deny his love."
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DISCLAIMER: I am neurodivergent (high functioning autism). What I say may not be meant in the negative way it may seem to neurotypicals.

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Re: Godzilla: King of the Monsters - General Discussion

Post by GigaBowserG »

HedorahIsBestGirl wrote: Mon Oct 07, 2024 7:38 am JAGzilla is definitely right that the movie clicks with a lot of kids, I'm just surprised to see so many older fans have such strong opinions on KOTM.
Personally speaking... I set my expectations too high going in. That's definitely on me. I had a lot of faith in Dougherty given his track record, and that first trailer was pretty magnificent. Went to watch the movie with family, walked out of the theater with my head hung low. I've never felt so embarrassed walking out of a movie.

Haven't rewatched it since, just letting this one simmer for a few more years. Had somewhat similar feelings towards the Anime Godzilla Trilogy, expecting something very different than what we got, and I finally feel like I can revisit those three with a more open mind... one of these days.
Mecha M wrote:[after seeing Shin Godzilla's design] Looks like partially cooked carne asada
/crawls back under rock

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