Godzilla X Kong: The New Empire SPOILER/GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD

[JAGzilla]

I don't think I've ever seen anyone claim that kaiju stories can't feasibly maintain a consistent long-term continuity. Of course it's possible and probably not even difficult. Let's be real, the average kaiju movie doesn't set an especially high bar for writing complexity.

The main argument I see against the cinematic universe approach is simply that it stifles creativity. It forces filmmakers to play by an established set of rules instead of being able to experiment and innovate their own ideas from one movie to the next.

So this is really just a clash between two different sets of preferences and priorities. There is a middle ground, which is what the Monsterverse is doing, but clearly that still isn't going to please everyone.

[Handsome Shrek]

Whoa whoa whoa where did this newfound hate for the cinematic universe concept in the Monsterverse come from?And now I’m hearing people say the MV is “falling apart”? That’s insane…

You can have your own opinions about the movies. If you like them, great. If not, that’s cool too. But I wouldn’t say the Monsterverse is failing or “falling apart”, rather the opposite. Right now we’re waiting on Film 6, Monarch Season 2, two completely new spinoff shows, AND a video game. That’s not counting all of the MV comics we currently have (with more on the way)

Putting your personal feelings of the Monsterverse aside, there is no way anyone can look at where we are now and say with confidence that the Monsterverse is somehow failing, or doing the cinematic universe concept “wrong”. Is this all because KotM underperformed at the box office 5 years ago (mind you, it wasn’t even that big of a dud. It was a divisive film released at a ridiculously bad time)? There haven’t been any major failures, production issues, behind-the-scenes drama, etc. There also haven’t been any talks about soft-reboots or wonky “is it canon or is it not” BS (looking at you DC and Sony). At this point in the MCU, Iron Man was the only truly profitable character, and they had already had to recast Bruce Banner and James Rhodes due to creative differences with Edward Norton and Terrance Howard

The shared universe approach, I’d say, is working very well in the Monsterverse. Legendary is focusing on one or two major projects at a time, the continuity amongst content is solid but not so overwhelming that you feel the need to play catch-up, and they aren’t trying to insert pointless cameos just for the sake of fanservice. The continuity and world-building is there for fans who care, but it’s not important or overbearing for the average moviegoer

Furthermore, there is no multiverse mumbo-jumbo or “interquels that exist just to set up more movies” (for example, Amazing Spider-Man 2). And, all of the movies and shows take themselves generally seriously, which is how these types of movies are supposed to be.

So HOW exactly is the Monsterverse “falling apart”? These movies don’t make the most money, or have the biggest fanbase, but they have genuine fans and are made with more heart and soul than most modern blockbusters that are just trying to make a quick buck.

[TheInfiniteAeon]

The main argument I see against the cinematic universe approach is simply that it stifles creativity. It forces filmmakers to play by an established set of rules instead of being able to experiment and innovate their own ideas from one movie to the next.

Playing by an established set of rules and being able to experiment and innovate one's ideas are not inherently mutually exclusive pursuits. Having rules should not be viewed as an obstacle to creativity, as often limitations and constraints are what encourages creative endeavors in the first place.
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IDK who Handsome Shrek is responding too, it might be me but I never said anything about the MV "falling apart" in reference to its financial success or lack of production drama. I do think the MV is bad at being a cinematic universe because of its inconsistent quality and tone, disregard for continuity and general lack of a greater overarching narrative vision, but I do not deny that the franchise is lucrative and successful.

But then again, it's not hard to succeed when the requirements to please your target audience are so low- all you gotta do is show the monsters do things and then sit back and rake it in. And Legendary and the filmmakers are being smartly judicious about their spending for the returns they get, especially when you look at the bloated budgets of their competitors both in film and television and the resulting shifts and cancellations. But that former point is my real geargrinder- why bother to put effort in being a well-written piece of work when you can just do the bare minimum and still be rewarded for it? GvK and GxK prove it so depressingly well.

[Handsome Shrek]

^The "Monsterverse is failing" thing was in response to JVM.

But, you do make all fair points. However, any sort of shared universe will always have continuity errors and/or some things that just don't make a whole lot of sense. The MCU has had some massive continuity errors. For example, Hulk's design and the "8 years later" thing at the beginning of Spiderman: Homecoming

Recasting Bruce Banner is one thing that was unpreventable. But there is ultimately no reason to change Hulk's design to look more like Mark Ruffalo. The Hulk in 2008 looks nothing like the later Hulk, and that's the main reason why that movie I consider a full standalone and not part of the MCU. The blatant disregard for the actual timeline in Homecoming is even more puzzling. How did that make it past an entire room of editors and execs?

Furthermore, I like how there's tonal changes between Monsterverse projects

[miguelnuva]

^The "Monsterverse is failing" thing was in response to JVM.

But, you do make all fair points. However, any sort of shared universe will always have continuity errors and/or some things that just don't make a whole lot of sense. The MCU has had some massive continuity errors. For example, Hulk's design and the "8 years later" thing at the beginning of Spiderman: Homecoming

Recasting Bruce Banner is one thing that was unpreventable. But there is ultimately no reason to change Hulk's design to look more like Mark Ruffalo. The Hulk in 2008 looks nothing like the later Hulk, and that's the main reason why that movie I consider a full standalone and not part of the MCU. The blatant disregard for the actual timeline in Homecoming is even more puzzling. How did that make it past an entire room of editors and execs?

Furthermore, I like how there's tonal changes between Monsterverse projects

The Hesiei series is the tightest continuity we have in Godzilla and I'd argue that has tonal shifts. The cyclone trilogy, vs Mothra and the G-force Trilogy feel tonal different from each other.

[Gojira2K]

On the topic of tonal differences between the films and show, that is always going to happen when you have different creative leads on projects. Unless the same director and creative team is working on every project, or there someone heading the entire universe like a Kevin Feige-esque figure, every project is going to be different from the last especially if they are given a lot of creative freedom.

If you want tonal consistency then you need to have someone heading the universe as a whole, not getting different directors/creative leads. Or if you do get different directors, you would have to restraint them pretty heavily. Getting both tonal consistency and different directors does not mix well.

[Kaijucifer]

2. Newer fans who live and die by GKOtM and think that’s the direction the MV should have stuck with. People who get into all of BS “lore” in the comics and can’t stand the MV Godzilla acting like a jerk (aka Godzilla).

That's impossible. Nobody actually liked GKOTM. Those people aren't being honest.

The previous statement was in jest, but my experience is the schism in the MV community is between people who liked G14 and KSI versus people who like the Wingard films. I have never once seen anyone who viewed GKOTM well and viewed GvK itself as the lone breaking point, and GvK was universally praised until GxK's release except by those who didn't like anything MV-related to begin with.

I'm in a zone though where I liked GxK a lot and still feel some agreement with the complaint that I wish Godzilla had a little more screentime in one of Wingard's films. It didn't need to be both.

Pleasure to make your acquaintance, Hi, im one of those people you havent met.

Wrong on all acounts. I am, a GKOTM Lover since day one, disliked/was disaapointed by 2014 for being a massive c*cktease with little payoff (my favorite analogy was, *do not click if you are a prude*

Spoiler:

being interrupted during a HAWT striptease lapdance with your wife over and over just to settle for a handy at the end. You swear it was good but still find yourself wanting more - a lot more.

), and was against the concept of GvK from conception as I never will and never could buy Kong being on par with Godzilla, let alone standing a chance enough to come close to winning. GxK just made me double down on everything really. And uh, most of my friends feel the same way, so perhaps you not been branching out far nuff in the macrocosm of the Godzilla community.

People who say Godzilla needed more screentime in GxK are wrong. He needed more out of the script - no amount of extra camera focus would have salvaged him. He was in plenty and felt forgettable because they have nothing for him to do. GvK, meh, my main issues with that were that hes not like he was in the previous movie, and is acting kinda stupid in this one(on brand for Wingard Goji). Aside from that, hes got memorable moments and thats about it.

Added in 6 minutes 8 seconds:

Every bad stereotype? What?

He acts like Godzilla instead of acting like Gamera. It’s very in character.

Not to this version. MV Godzilla works best when indifferent, if not kinda curious, and the stuff relating to his origins and his interactions with humanity could've made for interesting stories. In G14 and KOTM, he's destructive but the lesser of 2 evils and something of a physical God with legit gravitas, whereas Wingard's Godzilla has him to consequence free destruction just because he's an asshole while clearly being the greater threat and this is something we should be grateful for, for some poorly written reason. Godzilla's just a mindless, poorly executed afterthought of a brute in GxK given a pity cameo in a poorly written movie.

ALL OF THIS! We could have had greatness that rivals the Heisei era of Godzilla development and end up falling face first into shit.

Added in 2 minutes 53 seconds:

Oh lord. So you don’t like Godzilla then right? Cause that’s the character. He’s an asshole. Always has been.

I love G 2014 but as other have stated correctly he’s boring AF and decidedly un Godzilla like at times.

Youre being blatantly obtuse here. No. Godzilla is versatile as a character, flexible enough to make him NOT be an asshole in every iteration. I DO NOT CARE IF IT IS ON BRAND FOR HIM TO BE AN ASSHOLE. What we DO care about is that it does not track with how hes been established in KotM. And I am DEAD TIRED of people bringing up that throwaway line at the end "for now" when its just another back and forth between the two characters that never see eye to eye. Its like everyone who saw that scene never paid attention to Chen and Stanton until that line of dialog.

Added in 2 minutes 7 seconds:

So I reckon people just ignore the Golden Gate bridge scene? And he has a hell of a lot more character in the screen time he has as this old territorial warrior that's WAY past his prime than he ever had in Wingard's movies. You can gleam a lot from him from his mannerisms, his facial expressions, the way he carries himself, etc in G14 and KOTM. Also, design may not equal character portrayal but it does certainly help or detract from it. And in that front, Evolved Godzilla fails MISERABLY.

This. THIS. BROTHER WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN! YOU ARE LIKE ME! Lol. You see what I see. You feel what I feel, and you articulate it far better. THANK YOU!

Added in 2 minutes 21 seconds:

At this stage enforcing a sense of continuity into the MV is pointless, but the failings of filmmakers to stick to an established continuity and play to the advantages of that format does not mean nobody should ever try it ever again. I'd destroy an entire city to have a consistent, well-planned and well-written extended Godzilla setting, and enforcing this idea that kaiju stories can't be serialized in such a manner because every attempt so far hasn't panned out is ridiculously narrow-minded.

The problem is the Godzilla I want to see most isnt happening because of those failures we call writers. I wanted a Titan Pantheon with Godzilla as Zeus, DAMN IT! Now I will never get it.

[TheInfiniteAeon]

I wanted a Titan Pantheon with Godzilla as Zeus, DAMN IT! Now I will never get it.

You want Godzilla to go around having various affairs with women?

[MC_Lovecraft]

I wanted a Titan Pantheon with Godzilla as Zeus, DAMN IT! Now I will never get it.

You want Godzilla to go around having various affairs with women?

!
It is kind of funny to have people complaining about Godzilla being kind of a jerk in the Wingard movies, then invoke one of the pettiest gods in all mythology as a desired model for him.

[TheInfiniteAeon]

My desired model for him is an old ronin much like how the 2014 crew described him; slow, past his prime, aggression tempered by age, but experienced and unrelenting. TBH I don't really care for such an overt "Titan Pantheon" interpretation of the creatures myself- I find that turning them into literal deities strips away the metaphorical mystique offered by that label. I'd rather be these creatures be rooted in (good) science fiction i.e.; incredible products of evolution that are dressed and presented like gods.

[MC_Lovecraft]

My desired model for him is an old ronin much like how the 2014 crew described him; slow, past his prime, aggression tempered by age, but experienced and unrelenting. TBH I don't really care for such an overt "Titan Pantheon" interpretation of the creatures myself- I find that turning them into literal deities strips away the metaphorical mystique offered by that label. I'd rather be these creatures be rooted in (good) science fiction i.e.; incredible products of evolution that are dressed and presented like gods.

Complete and total agreement. I know that M:LoM has its issues, but I loved the return to the '14 style presentation of the Titans.

[Kaijucifer]

I wanted a Titan Pantheon with Godzilla as Zeus, DAMN IT! Now I will never get it.

You want Godzilla to go around having various affairs with women?

I said what I said. Zeus may have been petty to some, to others on Olympus he was still revered. And he assigned roles to the other gods. If you switch out "affairs with women" for "having many rivals like Goku to the point TeamFourStar made a skit where Vegeta is all but saying Goku cheated on him with Hit" then I would say, YES!

[miguelnuva]

I wanted a Titan Pantheon with Godzilla as Zeus, DAMN IT! Now I will never get it.

You want Godzilla to go around having various affairs with women?

I said what I said. Zeus may have been petty to some, to others on Olympus he was still revered. And he assigned roles to the other gods. If you switch out "affairs with women" for "having many rivals like Goku to the point TeamFourStar made a skit where Vegeta is all but saying Goku cheated on him with Hit" then I would say, YES!

Zeus was petty and was only revered because he was so much more powerful then everyone else and through around his weight like a little kid. Neither Zeus nor the TFS skit would be good for Godzilla.

[Kaijucifer]

You want Godzilla to go around having various affairs with women?

I said what I said. Zeus may have been petty to some, to others on Olympus he was still revered. And he assigned roles to the other gods. If you switch out "affairs with women" for "having many rivals like Goku to the point TeamFourStar made a skit where Vegeta is all but saying Goku cheated on him with Hit" then I would say, YES!

Zeus was petty and was only revered because he was so much more powerful then everyone else and through around his weight like a little kid. Neither Zeus nor the TFS skit would be good for Godzilla.

Look theres really not another choice of Chief God that fits better. Odin? No. Jupiter? No. Indra? No. Shiva? No. Crom Cruach? No. Its either Zeus, or Jehovah. And atheists already bash Christianity enough as is, so Jehovah is a no go.

[miguelnuva]

I said what I said. Zeus may have been petty to some, to others on Olympus he was still revered. And he assigned roles to the other gods. If you switch out "affairs with women" for "having many rivals like Goku to the point TeamFourStar made a skit where Vegeta is all but saying Goku cheated on him with Hit" then I would say, YES!

Zeus was petty and was only revered because he was so much more powerful then everyone else and through around his weight like a little kid. Neither Zeus nor the TFS skit would be good for Godzilla.

Look theres really not another choice of Chief God that fits better. Odin? No. Jupiter? No. Indra? No. Shiva? No. Crom Cruach? No. Its either Zeus, or Jehovah. And atheists already bash Christianity enough as is, so Jehovah is a no go.

Godzilla is who he should act like. The American novels and the showa series already showed Godzilla as the leader of Earth's kaiju.

[MC_Lovecraft]

I said what I said. Zeus may have been petty to some, to others on Olympus he was still revered. And he assigned roles to the other gods. If you switch out "affairs with women" for "having many rivals like Goku to the point TeamFourStar made a skit where Vegeta is all but saying Goku cheated on him with Hit" then I would say, YES!

Zeus was petty and was only revered because he was so much more powerful then everyone else and through around his weight like a little kid. Neither Zeus nor the TFS skit would be good for Godzilla.

Look theres really not another choice of Chief God that fits better. Odin? No. Jupiter? No. Indra? No. Shiva? No. Crom Cruach? No. Its either Zeus, or Jehovah. And atheists already bash Christianity enough as is, so Jehovah is a no go.

Not that I really think it's necessary for Godzilla to be "like" a human god, but why not Odin? He's one of the oldest of the Aesir. He's a god of kings and rulership, and of wise war. He's also extremely dangerous, never crossed and called upon only in greatest need. Sound like anybody we know?

[Jeff-Goldblum2]

I just realized that Shimo is this series Anguirus. Or equivalent.

Think on it. Quadrepedal, very spiky and starts off fighting Godzilla but becomes an ally. Also Rodan gets a fire based glow up, whilst Anguirus/Shimo gets an ice power glow up.

[Gojira18]

With about a tenth of Anguirus's charm

[Gigantis]

At the very least I think Shimo deserves credit for being an ice monster, something that is surprisingly rare when it comes to the kaiju world. However, I'm admittedly not too sure what she can do after this movie. If she's as powerful as the movie makes her out to be, it feels like she'd be able to take on a majority of threats no problem.

[Handsome Shrek]

I wouldn't be upset if Shimo returned, but I have no desire to see her again. There just wasn't really anything distinctly interesting about her

She has an unremarkable design and didn't really have much of a presence in the film beyond being Skar King's horse. It was almost like they were pressed for time and had to churn-out a brand new titan at the last minute

Such a shame. So much wasted potential