Talkback: Godzilla: Final Wars (2004)

[Chaos Reincarnation]

Great Value Rodan doesn't sell.

He's still technically more distinct than Gorosaurus, who's just a discount Godzilla

He got the Kangaroo kick! Whats the giant condor got?!

[MVHutch]

Great Value Rodan doesn't sell.

He's still technically more distinct than Gorosaurus, who's just a discount Godzilla

He got the Kangaroo kick! Whats the giant condor got?!

Good point

Though Godzilla originated that movie in King Kong vs Godzilla

[edgaguirus]

Great Value Rodan doesn't sell.

He's still technically more distinct than Gorosaurus, who's just a discount Godzilla

He got the Kangaroo kick! Whats the giant condor got?!

Feathers.

[Dyrakro]

Feathers.

Fathers*
Giant Condor is the child of a same-sex relationship, which is a very distinct feature indeed

[Mechagigan]

Giant Condor is the key to all of this.

[JAGzilla]

The Giant Condor is inside each one of us.

[LSD Jellyfish]

Wrote this a few weeks ago and forgot I saved it at as a draft:

I watched Godzilla Final Wars again. It was okay. I used to consider this one of my least favorite Godzilla films, and while that’s still the case I like it a lot more than I used to. I’ve actually got a lot to praise about Kitamura, and I think he’s got a great sense of unique style. The problems with the movie are that his unique style doesn’t mesh well with a Godzilla film, and based on other factors we know, it sort of feels like two films collided in the worst possible way.

I like how the film looks, yes even the color filters. I like the Takarada’s silver suit, Gordon’s large brown trench coat jacket thing, the mutant costumes, and even the Xilliens outfits. The wardrobes, and by extension a lot of the set designs and framing, are very stylish. The men and the women of the film are all very attractive, and Ozaki is a handsome man. Maybe it reeks of early 2000s culture, but I find in a post Shin Godzilla+Minus One world, that Godzilla Final Wars has its own distinctive style that makes the movie worth revisiting. Hell, I even like the music. Keith Emerson’s prog rocky tracks won’t be for everyone, but I really like the bombastic victory themes and jazzy undertones the film has.

Next:mutant action scenes. They’re mostly done well, and in particular, the fight between Ozaki and Kazama outside of the Mutant Headquarters is a lot of fun.

The problem? The monsters and pacing. I never noticed this this bad, but the movie feels like they mushed a film like IOTAM (a slow, mostly serious hard SF film) with an over the top action film. The film starts out strong, with a good opening scene with Godzilla+a fun montage/credits, and Gotengo Vs Manda, before a few expository scenes before the monsters all attack. It climaxes with Mutants Vs Ebirah, which I wish the film had more scenes of. It starts really strong.

However, the instant the Xilliens first show up, the film slows down, hard. There’s a rather elaborate scheme and attempt at a plot, the bulk of GFW’s actual plot, about realizing the Xilliens are bad news. By itself, it’s not bad. But this entire section of the movie, while well done, is really pointless. The film inserts this ambitious plot about the Xilliens trying to control the UN, but there's so many scenes that feel like pointless filler. Think about all the scenes with talk-show hosts, roundtable discussions, and egregiously the infamous toy scene. A lot of it could've been cut/slimmed down, including the mutant action scenes. The result is that you have this strong opening, some great destruction scenes, and then a long gap before Godzilla appears and just effortlessly defeats all the monsters. The balance of action in the movie is actually pretty bad and the amount of subplots are ridiculous.

I'm over complaining about the monsters, but its a damn shame that the majority of them are useless fodder. Not because of "respect" or anything, but it's a fantastic example of less doesn't equal more. The only stand outs are Gigan, Monster X and MAYBE Rodan, Anguirus, and Ebirah. Controversial take here, but I think Kitamura could have made a very unique and well-liked (but probably polarizing) Godzilla movie If the one he made wasn't the 50th anniversary film. I would have liked to see a movie with Godzilla and Mothra (or Shisa, Rodan or Angurius), fight off Monster X and Gigan. There's brief moments where Gigan and Monster X have a lot of movement to them that's very unique to Godzilla and Tokusatsu and I wish we got more of it. Keizer Ghidorah is a big mistake, and sort of the big tell that probably Kitamura had a bunch of constraints on him.

If I were to "fix" GFW I would:
-Remove the opening fight scene with Ozaki vs. Kazama
-Either Axe the Mothra plot OR add a bit more too it. The end result is that Mothra feels "just there", but not a vital part of the movie and it feels like she should get more or removed.
-Remove the "look mom, real monsters!" tv scene.
-Remove the bulk of the commentators talking about and debating the Xilliens. It's painfully obvious they're the bad guys and all that section does is provide filler for their evil reveal, which can still be done well.
-Slim down the Ozaki vs. Kazama scene on the motorcycles.
-Remove either Kamacuras or Kumonga, but add a scene where the Gotengo/mutants stop the monster. For example, have something like the Ebirah scene before Godzilla shows up and curbstomps.
-Lengthen the fight between Godzilla and Gigan in the arctic. Godzilla can still blow Gigan's head off, but it feels like Gigan was really built up only to basically do nothing to Godzilla.
-Remove and cut down a lot of the stuff aboard the Million mothership.
-Elongate the climax with Monster X and Gigan vs. Godzilla in Tokyo. Increase the amount of crazy action.
-Include Gotengo more in the finale.

[JVM]

However, the instant the Xilliens first show up, the film slows down, hard. There’s a rather elaborate scheme and attempt at a plot, the bulk of GFW’s actual plot, about realizing the Xilliens are bad news. By itself, it’s not bad. But this entire section of the movie, while well done, is really pointless. The film inserts this ambitious plot about the Xilliens trying to control the UN, but there's so many scenes that feel like pointless filler. Think about all the scenes with talk-show hosts, roundtable discussions, and egregiously the infamous toy scene. A lot of it could've been cut/slimmed down, including the mutant action scenes. The result is that you have this strong opening, some great destruction scenes, and then a long gap before Godzilla appears and just effortlessly defeats all the monsters. The balance of action in the movie is actually pretty bad and the amount of subplots are ridiculous.

The "infamous toy scene"? Maybe I've missed the discourse there, unless you mean the fact the toy is a Gamera joke.

I agree it's kind of pointless, but I largely accepted it as a genre convention, in the same way as IoAM's brief subplot about the cure to all world disease, which is more meaningful to the plot of that film to establish some greater incentives for the key characters, but at the same time feels less impactful. I think to a degree one of the goals may have been to use the transition of the initial older Xilien leader to the newer, younger Xilien leader as way to establish the younger one as a villain more strongly, especially given Japanese culture placing more respect on elders, making his actions potentially look more egregious. Just a spitball though, and I wouldn't say that justifies anything, just a spitball at what Kitamura might have been going for.

I'm over complaining about the monsters, but its a damn shame that the majority of them are useless fodder. Not because of "respect" or anything, but it's a fantastic example of less doesn't equal more. The only stand outs are Gigan, Monster X and MAYBE Rodan, Anguirus, and Ebirah. Controversial take here, but I think Kitamura could have made a very unique and well-liked (but probably polarizing) Godzilla movie If the one he made wasn't the 50th anniversary film.

I really strongly agree on the last take, and indeed, I think if something like GMK or GxMG came out as the fiftieth anniversary film, they would have had a chillier reception. The golden anniversary raised expectations enormously, and while some would probably assume it was just the hope for a "good" quality film as opposed to a messy film, I think a lot of people were hope for something sort of comprehensive or reflective, where the anniversary was almost part of the film itself -- something that could be viewed as a fitting tribute to the diverse array of content that came before, a demand that was pretty challenging, as Godzilla has been so many different things over many years. It's hard to create a film that could honor all of that history and break new ground at once.

Creating a campy tribute to the Showa films sounds like a winner, but Kitamura's decision to kind of mix the tone of the Fukuda films with really contemporary action film elements, I think, is what let it all down - people who like the modern stuff wouldn't connect with the nostalgia, but people who like the nostalgic elements were probably put off by the contemporary stuff. I think it creates some tonal confusion for a lot of viewers, although for me as a kid that worked fine.

It's absolutely the most distinctive and strongest entry stylistically in the Millennium series and imo still does some of the best world-building in a standalone Toho film; shame to say it's so wasted.

[Mechagigan]

Final Wars is such a masterpiece of "trashy" - you can almost see it as a 2000s spin on the more ridiculous, genre-centric Showa films such as KKvG or Ebirah. It really is the only Godzilla film to have such an endearingly low-brow tone - besides '98, I guess, though that one's much less earnest. It's like the end-all direct to DVD schlockfest, and it rules how they totally revel in that - makes me wish the Millennium era continued into the 2000s for more hyper-dated anime stuff like this.

Though, obviously, I think those elements are also why most fans (especially oldheads) don't love it. It's not exactly the tone that comes to mind when one imagines a celebration of everything Godzilla has been, and it'd probably feel more tacky if I were an adult at the time it came out. I think the pacing could be a lot better, this really doesn't need to be two hours long with how brief the monster stuff actually is. The lack of depth can bring things down, as there isn't much to bite into beyond fanservice or fluff entertainment - even something as straightforward as an action scene can get a bit boring when there's no investment. Padding is a word that comes to mind - the amount of Matrix fight filler is just annoying, at times. It almost feels like an unfinished, meandering cut

Despite that, certain characters are all-time classics. Captain Gordon is the greatest Kaiju of all time (one of the very few to ever beat Godzilla), and I totally love emo X. Pretty neat detail how his uniform seems to resemble Gigan's weird plates and wiring, even his personality. Why did the Xiliens get a Bandai figure and not the Star, Captain Gordon, who is, again, inarguably the best and coolest Godzilla monster? Akira Takarada's head splitting open is peak cinema, let alone the incredible false dog prank, or his fabulous full silver suit.

The effects are dated, but stylized, so I never really actively notice things like the CG looking bad. It's got a certain aesthetic that plays to the weird composite shots really well, looks uniquely animation inspired and whimsical. GMK's wonky special effects hit this note for me, too. Pretty much every design is wicked, and even though their scenes are quick, the Kaiju all have a lot of personality - Gigan being so built up, and so intimidating, only to consistently be a gigantic idiot is just perfect. Godzilla could've used a lot more characterization, or even focus, but I guess it's assumed you "know" him well enough already. I'd like to see a fan edit of this movie where the new Hedorah fight replaces a bit of the meh mutant-fu stuff.

Solid dub on this one, also. "Angweenis" is incredible - and, is it some odd dubbing error that they imply Gordon "struck" a leader? Surely they mean when he verbally lashed out in the previous scene? Not that I can't picture him boxing with a nice old lady.

[MVHutch]

Next:mutant action scenes. They’re mostly done well, and in particular, the fight between Ozaki and Kazama outside of the Mutant Headquarters is a lot of fun.

The fighting is good. But imo it takes up too much of the movie, when I really wanted more daikaiju fighting.

I'm over complaining about the monsters, but its a damn shame that the majority of them are useless fodder. Not because of "respect" or anything, but it's a fantastic example of less doesn't equal more. The only stand outs are Gigan, Monster X and MAYBE Rodan, Anguirus, and Ebirah. Controversial take here, but I think Kitamura could have made a very unique and well-liked (but probably polarizing) Godzilla movie If the one he made wasn't the 50th anniversary film. I would have liked to see a movie with Godzilla and Mothra (or Shisa, Rodan or Angurius), fight off Monster X and Gigan. There's brief moments where Gigan and Monster X have a lot of movement to them that's very unique to Godzilla and Tokusatsu and I wish we got more of it. Keizer Ghidorah is a big mistake, and sort of the big tell that probably Kitamura had a bunch of constraints on him.

No you're totally right here. Hedorah is reduced to an easily destroy cameo. Most of these other daikaiju should've give Godzilla a harder time, but because they focused more on the X-Men/Matrix/Star Wars rip-offs, Godzilla has to speed run through the battles many of us came to see. I was discussing this on Reddit but this movie demonstrates why this concept is hard to pull off. More monsters ends up meaning less time to keep all the unique and interesting elements making these monsters interesting to begin with

And if they were doing an homage to the Showa Era, they could've thrown Anguirus, Rodan and King Shisa into the final battle as Godzilla's allies too. I also agree about Keizer Ghidorah/Monster X. Imo that should've been King Ghidorah, and Monster X could've been used instead for another daikaiju like Megalon.

If I were to "fix" GFW I would:
-Remove the opening fight scene with Ozaki vs. Kazama
-Either Axe the Mothra plot OR add a bit more too it. The end result is that Mothra feels "just there", but not a vital part of the movie and it feels like she should get more or removed.
-Remove the "look mom, real monsters!" tv scene.
-Remove the bulk of the commentators talking about and debating the Xilliens. It's painfully obvious they're the bad guys and all that section does is provide filler for their evil reveal, which can still be done well.
-Slim down the Ozaki vs. Kazama scene on the motorcycles.
-Remove either Kamacuras or Kumonga, but add a scene where the Gotengo/mutants stop the monster. For example, have something like the Ebirah scene before Godzilla shows up and curbstomps.
-Lengthen the fight between Godzilla and Gigan in the arctic. Godzilla can still blow Gigan's head off, but it feels like Gigan was really built up only to basically do nothing to Godzilla.
-Remove and cut down a lot of the stuff aboard the Million mothership.
-Elongate the climax with Monster X and Gigan vs. Godzilla in Tokyo. Increase the amount of crazy action.
-Include Gotengo more in the finale.

Ngl, I wish MechaGodzilla was in this too. Omitting him on Godzilla's 50th and his 30th was a bad move imo. He could've been a wild card in the invasion (maybe an homage to his Showa origins). I also wouldn't omit Kamacuras or Kumonga. I actually liked Kamacuras having invisibility as a power. The fight should've just been longer and harder for Godzilla

As for Mothra, she should've show up way earlier, maybe even fought one or two of the other monsters herself.

The filler stuff needed to go, I agree about that. They could've just went forward with the invasion to begin with. This movie has way too much human scenes, and if they're not fighting, they're not interesting enough to hold our attention imo

[Legion1979]

I was fine with MG not being in this film. We had two MG films in a row. We didn't really need to see Kiryu again.

[Mechagigan]

I don't mind MG not being there, but I do think it's still a missed opportunity. Could've had the mutants pilot Kiryu instead of Gotengo, or replaced the first Gigan with him.

The mutant fight scenes really are the low point of this one, even though they aren't poorly done, or even "bad", per se. They're just not what anyone's here for. By the end of the movie I find the human cut-aways almost funny, they're so annoying. I think it's interesting.how this movie aeems to have gotten wrecked in the editing - imagine a streamlined re-edit with much more focus on the monsters.

[MVHutch]

I was fine with MG not being in this film. We had two MG films in a row. We didn't really need to see Kiryu again.

True but we saw plenty of Mothra in the Millenium movies too

I don't mind MG not being there, but I do think it's still a missed opportunity. Could've had the mutants pilot Kiryu instead of Gotengo, or replaced the first Gigan with him.

The mutant fight scenes really are the low point of this one, even though they aren't poorly done, or even "bad", per se. They're just not what anyone's here for. By the end of the movie I find the human cut-aways almost funny, they're so annoying. I think it's interesting.how this movie aeems to have gotten wrecked in the editing - imagine a streamlined re-edit with much more focus on the monsters.

Ikr this is like the most annoying thing about this movie. They took the most baseline elements of the X-Men, without even getting the really good stuff, turned them into Neo-esque Jedi, then overstuffed them into a big daikaiju brawl, to where we see too little daikaiju brawling!