Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

For discussions covering more than one Toho film or show that span across more than one “era.”
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Jomei
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Post by Jomei »

darthzilla99 wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:02 pm You can't tell me the second quote is not art
It's not art.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Jomei wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:13 pm
darthzilla99 wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:02 pm You can't tell me the second quote is not art
It's not art.
touché.
GVK: TNE is a modern day 70s Showa Godzilla movie. Being a massive budget modern blockbuster CGI film instead of traditional 70s tokusatsu techniques doesn't change that.

Monsterverse is not similar to either MCU nor Bayformers just because all three are big budget CGI blockbuster franchises.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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darthzilla99 wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:38 pm
Jomei wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:13 pm
darthzilla99 wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:02 pm You can't tell me the second quote is not art
It's not art.
touché.
It is a good line, though. :3 I'm just being contrarian.

But in a serious sense, you're citing an exception to the general rule. I think it's profoundly unhealthy for cinema to think of the studio and producers as "employers" who can say "no" the author of the work. Even if there's a reality that's something like that under it all, framing things that way is going to much more often than not result in bland, uninspired work. If the producers or whoever had the capacity to be in the creative seat, they'd be there rather than doing administrative functions.

Not every artistically free artist will produce great work every time. That much is obvious. And not every producer note is unhelpful. We're not talking about 100% black/white situations here, but it's much better that people don't get the horse confused for the carriage.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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darthzilla99 wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 6:02 pm nor can you argue Sam Rami should have had total 100% freedom of expression 😆
That's precisely what I'm arguing. Idc how bad the film would have been because, again, that is far from the point.

Plus I believe that if 100% creative freedom was the norm, directors and their films would be more competitive in terms of quality. As-is, movies are competitive in terms of box office numbers, with quality being a convenient bonus if it happens to be selling.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Post by John Pannozzi »

With most Godzilla and Toho sfx movies, the main directorial and special effects units operate largely separately, so in a sense they're almost all technically made by committee.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Neogeddon wrote: Wed Jun 19, 2024 8:13 amFreedom of expression >>>>> Whether people like the expression or not
I agree with the principle, so I do get where you're coming from, but regardless if you or I agree fully or not, I do very earnestly do not think most people honestly believe this no matter how hard they claim it.

My personal experience is consistently that people care more about the quality of the creative work than how it was made and only take an interest in the latter for the sake of creating a narrative justification for the quality of the final result. The vision of a singular artist only matters to people if the resulting creative work is "good", but if it is bad then that person totally just needed better directing, editing or guardrails. The interference of a corporation is only invoked if it is viewed as negating the final creative work rather than anything else, similarly. I have seen a lot of people invoke the principle of artistic freedom and then turn on it when it was about a 'bad' movie.

There are so many artistic mediums, as opposed to film, where a single artist can create a creative content - music, poetry, fiction, fanfiction and video essays - and in all of these cases, the overwhelming majority of the total output is ignored by the masses until a handful of works are lifted up by success first. Fanfiction in particular is the only one of these mentioned with zero financial incentive or corporate involvement whatsoever, and it's the least respected. The most common denigration for a bad film besides it being toothless/corporate often is otherwise a comparison to that.

I am fairly certain if Ishiro Honda and Jun Fukuda were alive today, they would not argue that any of their Godzilla sequels represented true artistic freedom of expression, to be honest. I believe one or the other described the films more akin to jobs they did for Toho. We choose to view it that way because we like the films and want to justify it. The special effects division does some of their work well outside of that and even then a lot of the discussion is only about Tsubaraya or Kawaita. We don't talk as much about Shinichi Sekizawa or Tomoyuki Tanaka as we do the directors. We tend to minimize Toho's involvement and direction because it feels like the worst thing you can say about a movie is to dispute the idea it is the work of a single creative visionary.

Personally I don't think it's great that "corporatism" has been treated as a polar opposites for creativity in film discourse, nor that we often treat film as a conflict between a board of faceless executives and a single visionary director. There are going to be situations where members of a creative team disagree, which is much more visible in television production, such as where writers and directors disagree, and there are situations where multiple executives working on the same film are not working in uniform as I feel the term "corporate" often implies, and I'm not sure which side of production most people would put editors - but in my experience, a lot of blockbusters are worse after editing, when you delete five one-minute character sequences to prioritize a five-minute set piece.

I'll return in like 24 hours and say something much, MUCH stupider than this, I bet.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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John Pannozzi wrote: Thu Jun 20, 2024 9:53 pm With most Godzilla and Toho sfx movies, the main directorial and special effects units operate largely separately, so in a sense they're almost all technically made by committee.
I don’t know if that’s true. I mean they operate separately but there’s clear overlap and everything is a lot more connected.

To use Minus One as an example, Yamazaki was in charge of VFX and overall director. Anno had heavy involvement in basically every single part of Shin Godzilla, and while Toho had their own requests and limitations you can’t say that Shin Godzilla wasn’t made by Anno.

The thing is, all movies are “made by a committee”…or rather a group of people. Modern Disney films and other things, particularly the MCU seem to already have everything decided in advance, and the director is really just making sure everything clicks together.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Post by edgaguirus »

I remember an interview Gene Wilder gave about Young Frankenstein. He said that he had to defend some scenes, like Putting on the Ritz, when Brooks questioned them, despite the two having written the script. Brooks, however, responded to this by saying that he did want to include the scenes, but just needed to hear Wilder's dedication to those scenes. As director, he was in charge, but still listened to his team. It was the teamwork of Brooks, Wilder, and others that made the film a great comedy. What LSD said above is correct.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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It's a confusion of language, though, to in any way equate that with what's meant by a movie "made by committee."
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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I didn't like the atomic breath in Godzilla -1.

I don't want it to be like a nuke explosion. I want the atomic breath to be like a constant flame coming out his mouth that doesn't explode.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Tokyo as a city has been overexposed in kaiju media. Toho (and other companies) need to expand and diversify to other cities like in the Showa era.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Destoroyah of Worlds wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2024 2:47 pm I didn't like the atomic breath in Godzilla -1.

I don't want it to be like a nuke explosion. I want the atomic breath to be like a constant flame coming out his mouth that doesn't explode.
I kinda feel the same. I don't hate it, but it's a little too on the nose for me (and yes, I know this isn't a franchise known for its subtlety, but dammit I draw the line here).
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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The nuke-breath was fine for the context of that one movie, but yeah, I prefer the traditional beams, too.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Jetty_Jags wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2024 3:16 pm
Destoroyah of Worlds wrote: Mon Jun 24, 2024 2:47 pm I didn't like the atomic breath in Godzilla -1.

I don't want it to be like a nuke explosion. I want the atomic breath to be like a constant flame coming out his mouth that doesn't explode.
I kinda feel the same. I don't hate it, but it's a little too on the nose for me (and yes, I know this isn't a franchise known for its subtlety, but dammit I draw the line here).
Agreed. Though the sequence was cool, the atomic bomb imagery all the way down to the black rain was pushing it.

It's no longer even a metaphor when you literalize the thing.
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Thatguy4683 wrote: Mon Mar 11, 2024 4:04 pmWhat? Is this a joke? What gonna on here?
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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The problem with the atomic breath nowadays is that between LP and Toho, everyone wants each blast to be an "OH SHIT, HERE IT COMES!" moment for the audience. Godzilla as a character has just gotten to a point where he's just too powerful across all media.

And it's BOOOOORING.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Legion1979 wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2024 8:39 am The problem with the atomic breath nowadays is that between LP and Toho, everyone wants each blast to be an "OH SHIT, HERE IT COMES!" moment for the audience. Godzilla as a character has just gotten to a point where he's just too powerful across all media.

And it's BOOOOORING.
Minus One Godzilla didn't strike me as being too powerful. He's the most vulnerable to conventional weaponry that he's ever been in a Japanese movie.

You do have a point about LPG, though. He's gotten pretty ridiculous.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Spuro wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2024 10:56 am
Legion1979 wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2024 8:39 am The problem with the atomic breath nowadays is that between LP and Toho, everyone wants each blast to be an "OH SHIT, HERE IT COMES!" moment for the audience. Godzilla as a character has just gotten to a point where he's just too powerful across all media.

And it's BOOOOORING.
Minus One Godzilla didn't strike me as being too powerful. He's the most vulnerable to conventional weaponry that he's ever been in a Japanese movie.

You do have a point about LPG, though. He's gotten pretty ridiculous.
MV Godzilla is very powerful but he also would have been killed in 3 of the 4 movies. Ford saves him in G14, Mothra and Emma save him in Kotm and Kong saves him in GvsK. While the film doesn't show it as best it could Kong and Mothra bail him out in TNE.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Post by Spirit Ghidorah 2010 »

I feel like we have this conversation every few weeks.

My many issues with the Monsterverse aside, Godzilla being overpowered never felt like one. He needed Ford to distract Femuto while getting curbstomped. He almost got done in by manmade weapons TWICE. And I don't remember him doing anything impressive in GxK. In fact, weren't people complaining that Evolved Godzilla didn't even seem that powered up?
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Spirit Ghidorah 2010 wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2024 12:13 pm I feel like we have this conversation every few weeks.

My many issues with the Monsterverse aside, Godzilla being overpowered never felt like one. He needed Ford to distract Femuto while getting curbstomped. He almost got done in by manmade weapons TWICE. And I don't remember him doing anything impressive in GxK. In fact, weren't people complaining that Evolved Godzilla didn't even seem that powered up?
He's strong compared to Godzillas in one on one combat but Toho has done that since Heisei. As we both mentioned Ford saved him in g14 in a 2 on 1. The OD killed him, Ghidorah would have killed him had Mothra and Emma not saved him. MechaGodzilla was close if Kong didn't save him and TNE empire implies Kong and Mothra are the only reason that fight looked easy despite Godzilla powering up so much.

Godzilla is just super strong one on one with Earth born Titans.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Spirit Ghidorah 2010 wrote: Tue Jun 25, 2024 12:13 pm I feel like we have this conversation every few weeks.

My many issues with the Monsterverse aside, Godzilla being overpowered never felt like one. He needed Ford to distract Femuto while getting curbstomped. He almost got done in by manmade weapons TWICE. And I don't remember him doing anything impressive in GxK. In fact, weren't people complaining that Evolved Godzilla didn't even seem that powered up?
It's really only Toho Kingdom that thinks Shimo wasn't a threat and Godzilla was overpowered in New Empire. It's generally agreed upon the Godzilla subreddits that Evolved Godzilla was evenly matched with Shimo at best (with some arguing Shimo was stronger still). Here are the facts:
1. Mothra stopped Shimo from continously focusing the frost bite on Godzilla and it's unlikely the nuclear pulse would have stopped it.
2. When in sumo grappling (for lack of a better term), Shimo was pushing Godzilla.
3. Shimo easily throw Godzilla away twice in the Final battle when Skar King commanded Shimo to attack Kong. The second throw dazed Godzilla long enough for Shimo to drag and fight Kong for a decent amount of time before Godzilla decided to go after skar King.
4. Shimo tanked a decently long Evolved Atomic breath when Godzilla saved Kong.
Last edited by darthzilla99 on Wed Jun 26, 2024 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
GVK: TNE is a modern day 70s Showa Godzilla movie. Being a massive budget modern blockbuster CGI film instead of traditional 70s tokusatsu techniques doesn't change that.

Monsterverse is not similar to either MCU nor Bayformers just because all three are big budget CGI blockbuster franchises.

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