Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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miguelnuva
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Post by miguelnuva »

Neogeddon wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 9:27 am Precisely the point I was attempting to make, with much less of the skill at making it that HIBG has :']

If you actually watch the Showa films - and I know we mostly all do, but I suspect some have only seen clips of the "infamous" moments like the sliding kick and are basing the comparison on that - the outright goofy stuff doesn't actually happen too often. They're still pretty narratively grounded on the human side and don't need to rely on asspulls ("oh yeah we just so happen to have a secret project we never even alluded to before that will just so happen to fix Kong's frostbitten arm haha epic"). If memory serves, this sort of shit-just-happens weak sci-fi silliness is more of a Heisei thing. But it's been a while since I've rewatched most of those.
Godzilla flying and being struck by lightning and turning in a Jedi Knight aren't asspulls?

The showa Monsterverse comparisons are being exaggerated on both sides. A lot of fans are not critics and when they say something reminds them of showa if might get taken as the MV is big budget showa remakes but I take it as there are elements in GxK that remind people of the 70's Showa films.

GxK is not then greatest Godzilla film ever and some fans defend it too hard, some go after it to hard but we all have our opinions and they should be respected. I think like the Oxygen Destroyer it passes people off when it's compared to Showa because showa is held to a high standard by some fans which happens in every fandom.
Last edited by miguelnuva on Mon May 20, 2024 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Post by Legion1979 »

All eras of Tokusatsu feature asspulls. The climaxes of all three Heisei Gamera movies, easily the greatest Japanaese monster movies of all time, all feature Gamera coming up with an assault for a finishing move. Let's not pretend that kind of thing is just unique to the 70s Godzilla films.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Post by HeiseiGodzilla117 »

HedorahIsBestGirl wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 8:38 am Stuff like Godzilla and Kong jumping around in zero gravity or Kong riding Godzilla don't look like anything that happened in the Showa series; they look like stuff that happens regularly in every other popular Hollywood blockbuster series.
This is exactly my issue with it. Swap the monsters out for superheroes or Jedi in the Hollow Earth, for instance, and you'd be forgiven for thinking it was an entirely different movie. And somehow there are MV fans who complain about the MCU or Disney Star Wars and are okay with this.

To be clear, I'm a MV fan. And I do enjoy GxK. But it is easily the most "Modern Hollywood" of the MV movies. And I don't personally think that's a point in its favor.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Post by HedorahIsBestGirl »

I see a distinction between a kaiju - explicitly, strange creatures that humans don't fully understand - pulling out a previously unseen ability and Monarch spending $25 billion of taxpayer money on a prototype gauntlet for Kong and then spending additional billions of taxpayer money to transport it to a warehouse in the Hollow Earth for it to collect dust until it is conveniently needed during the film. I'm not gonna fully defend the trope of kaiju pulling out a secret attack when backed into a corner, but I find it much less stupid than the gauntlet explanation from GxK. No amount of suspension of disbelief will allow me to buy that an obscene amount of money was wasted on a manmade power-up for Kong that magically also cures frostbite. That was some true barrel scraper writing right there.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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HeiseiGodzilla117 wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 11:19 am
HedorahIsBestGirl wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 8:38 am Stuff like Godzilla and Kong jumping around in zero gravity or Kong riding Godzilla don't look like anything that happened in the Showa series; they look like stuff that happens regularly in every other popular Hollywood blockbuster series.
This is exactly my issue with it. Swap the monsters out for superheroes or Jedi in the Hollow Earth, for instance, and you'd be forgiven for thinking it was an entirely different movie. And somehow there are MV fans who complain about the MCU or Disney Star Wars and are okay with this.
Everything fanboys bitched and moaned about with the MCU is EXACTLY what the Monsterverse is doing now. I've said it before, but it was NEVER about wanting a GOOD Hollywood Godzilla product. It was always just about Godzilla becoming a mainstream American IP, no matter how it happened and what the end result looked like. We could be getting outright crap and it'd be all forgiven as long as fans can say things like "We're eating well!" or "It's the best it's even been!" Fans don't want quality. They just want Godzilla crammed down their throats and lots of toys on Walmart shelves.
Last edited by Legion1979 on Mon May 20, 2024 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Post by Neogeddon »

miguelnuva wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 11:04 am Godzilla flying and being struck by lightning and turning in a Jedi Knight aren't asspulls?
Well, I didn't mention Godzilla totally changing his physiology in the span of days (or less; kinda unclear) for a reason ;)
As HIBG said above, kaiju have much greater asspull freedom because it's in their nature. Granted I don't like how this specific kaiju continuity is still pretending that it has anything to do with anything natural, so maybe it shouldn't be doing random kaiju powerups, but that's a totally different issue lol
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

Post by JAGzilla »

It's the frostbite cure part that goes too far. The glove itself is kind of okay. If there's one thing the military industrial complex likes to do, it's waste taxpayer money. Billions of dollars are flushed down the toilet every year on projects that go nowhere and amount to nothing. The MV is facing a new arms race situation, basically. Kaiju keep appearing, they're impossibly powerful and unpredictable. Conventional weapons don't work on them. Outside the box solutions are needed. It makes total sense that Monarch, as a government agency tasked with kaiju management, would be exploring ways to weaponize kaiju against one another, and they have Kong as a willing test subject. If Apex drops super advanced kaiju-scale robotics tech into the mix, which was proven effective in Hong Kong, it's not a big leap that they find a means of enhancing Kong's fighting ability with this tech.

Leaving it unguarded in a warehouse in the Hollow Earth is unlikely, though. Government negligence is unfuckingbelievable sometimes, but still. And having it randomly cure frostbite is The Rise of Skywalker-level bad writing.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Although not totally divisive, I really like Godzilla VS. The Sea Monster. It takes a whole new direction, and yes it was meant for Kong but looking past that, it was kind of a blend of Island/Tropical/Hawaii Surf film style blended with Godzilla... I actually like the tropical nature of the music as well.

I don't like Godzilla's Revenge BUT if it was a stand alone that didn't reuse stock footage AND dopey Minya, it could have been cool.

Super MG (derpy face aside) was my favorite MG. Conversely building MOGERA out of MG2 was just dumb.

Kiryu was a cool design, but seemed too limited and venerable with exposed mechanisms and pieces. Plus using a skeleton inside is just weird.

GMK to me was just off....Godzilla looked more like a Pokemon in this. Baragon was cool, Mothra looked great and Ghidorah looked like a plastic model.

Side note, I think it's funny how when the movies went in the direction of kids is when you start seeing blood...DAM, GVGigan, GVMG.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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I think Moguera/M.O.G.U.E.R.A are really cool. I love the bulky, tank-like build both versions have, especially the Heisei version. I only recently began to appreciate the Showa design, with it's neat retro-futuristic and segmented look.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Regarding your side note, it's not out of place. The same year G vs Gigan came out, Ultraman ace was regularly severing limbs and heads from monsters.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Legion1979 wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 11:26 am We could be ARE getting outright crap and it'd be all forgiven as long as fans can say things like "We're eating well!" or "It's the best it's even been!"
FTFY. Let's not pretend this hasn't been the case for some time now.
In a post-Shin Godzilla world, the kaiju genre should, more than ever before, be held to standards of quality that are more than just "big monster go rawr". Don't act surprised when you get trash movies when your core audience asks for nothing but the bare minimum.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Legion1979 wrote: Mon May 20, 2024 11:26 amEverything fanboys bitched and moaned about with the MCU is EXACTLY what the Monsterverse is doing now. I've said it before, but it was NEVER about wanting a GOOD Hollywood Godzilla product. It was always just about Godzilla becoming a mainstream American IP, no matter how it happened and what the end result looked like. We could be getting outright crap and it'd be all forgiven as long as fans can say things like "We're eating well!" or "It's the best it's even been!" Fans don't want quality. They just want Godzilla crammed down their throats and lots of toys on Walmart shelves.
I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I think it needs to be said though -- there is never, ever going to be a 'good' Hollywood Godzilla movie no matter who asks.

I think it's extremely clear Godzilla's success in American productions has been almost strictly carried by the presence of Kong and other primate characters who can behave in a more clear and anthropomorphic manner. You can't build a quality story with mainstream, international appeal around Godzilla as a central character is the reality - he doesn't grow, he doesn't change, and any expression of emotion will destroy any sense of grounding and realism because he is a giant reptile. Godzilla (1954) and Shin Godzilla and Godzilla Minus One get around this by presenting Godzilla as an antagonist - he isn't the central character, and that's because great directors know you can't make him something that grows or changes. True cinemaphiles shun all but a handful of breakthrough special effects movies and want to watch skilled actors, real human beings, showing real human emotions -- you cannot do that with Godzilla, and you can barely stretch it with Kong. It's also worth mentioning those three breakthrough films all succeeded partly because they directly addressed aspects of Japan itself.

I mean, personally I think we'd be fine if the franchise ended tomorrow. Just because Godzilla Minus One was a delight doesn't mean we're going to get ten more of those. We have pretty much all of the material a fan could want and then some.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Good is way too subjective a term to say we'll never get a good hollywood Godzilla movie.
Last edited by miguelnuva on Tue May 21, 2024 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Godzilla Minus is the kind of film G14 wanted to be.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Tyrant_Lizard_King wrote: Wed May 22, 2024 1:10 am Godzilla Minus is the kind of film G14 wanted to be.
Not really. G14 from the start said it was going to be Godzilla returning to his hero roots fighting monsters.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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miguelnuva wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 11:44 pm Good is way too subjective a term to say we'll never get a good hollywood Godzilla movie.
Subjectivity is dead in film discourse. Just because I like something doesn't mean it's good. My taste means nothing.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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We got our good American Godzilla movie in 2014.

Fans said they wanted more monster action, so here we are.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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JVM wrote: Wed May 22, 2024 9:43 am
miguelnuva wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 11:44 pm Good is way too subjective a term to say we'll never get a good hollywood Godzilla movie.
Subjectivity is dead in film discourse. Just because I like something doesn't mean it's good. My taste means nothing.
So then what is the bar for what is considered a good Godzilla film if it isn't up to subjectivity?
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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I guess it would be a story that finds a balance between the human story and the monster action. G14 was a good film, but not everyone was satisfied with the limited monster action. Now we have complaints that the human storyline is neglected for the monster scenes and action. Finding some balance between the human and monster parts, and having them work together, would probably satisfy these complaints.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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miguelnuva wrote: Wed May 22, 2024 2:33 pm
JVM wrote: Wed May 22, 2024 9:43 am
miguelnuva wrote: Tue May 21, 2024 11:44 pm Good is way too subjective a term to say we'll never get a good hollywood Godzilla movie.
Subjectivity is dead in film discourse. Just because I like something doesn't mean it's good. My taste means nothing.
So then what is the bar for what is considered a good Godzilla film if it isn't up to subjectivity?
That is a great question! It's hard to call any answer final and definitive, but I defer to public opinion / popular consensus. I can't trust my own sense of personal connection but certainly, if it seems like a significant number of people agree the film is good, then something succeeded.
edgaguirus wrote: Wed May 22, 2024 9:38 pmI guess it would be a story that finds a balance between the human story and the monster action [...] Now we have complaints that the human storyline is neglected for the monster scenes and action. Finding some balance between the human and monster parts, and having them work together, would probably satisfy these complaints.
In theory, sure, but I don't think this is something an American film can possibly work. I do believe Shin Godzilla and Godzilla Minus One succeeded this by pitting the main human characters directly against Godzilla, with nothing else in the way - ditto, even GMK ends this way, vs. Destoroyah has to kick the antagonist monster aside for the climax, and Godzilla vs. Biollante has a monster with a human spirit. I'm not sure that concept would fly in a Hollywood production without feeling like a pale imitation, and we know we can't duplicate the Showa era, so we run into needing to do a Godzilla solo film.
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