Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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SpiderZilla
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Legion1979 wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:04 pm I KNOW they did all that. But the movie still isn't about Godzilla getting revenge on the Oxygen Destroyer.
So why did they include the Oxygen Destroyer in the plot at all, or name the opponent after it, or bring back those other elements from the first film, if the goal of the film was to give Godzilla a poignant death scene after battling a previously unknown but formidable opponent? Seems to me like they made those specific references for a reason. Unfortunately they failed to follow through with the ending.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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God, I need a drink.

I mean Christ dude. Yeah they did all that stuff. And yes, it was meant to bring the series full circle. Duh. But again, the goal wasn't for Godzilla to get revenge on a weapon that didn't even kill him specifically. I feel you're completely incapable of seeing this in any way other than the extremely specific narrative you have in your head.

You want the movie to be something it's not and are mad at it because it's not playing by your fandom logic.
Last edited by Legion1979 on Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Spiderzilla, there is revenge in Godzilla's fight with Destoroyah, but its no where near the narrative you're describing. Its very clear that Godzilla was fighting Destoroyah because the latter was actively seeking out to destroy him. Also Godzilla had another reason to fight him, because of Junior.

Yes, there is a full circle narrative here. The movie is pretty clumsy at portraying it, but I think its trying to say that "thoughtless scientific progress for the sake of thoughtless scientific progress" is going to have dangerous consequences. The oxygen destroyer returned even though it was destroyed decades before, because of that type of mindset. Not the type of scientific progress made specifically to help humankind. I think the type of "well why not" mentality tech bros have when it comes to developing AI. Thoughtless tinkering is what brought back the oxygen destroyer.

Also the same way the nuclear bomb creating creatures like Godzilla, a fictional superweapon like the oxygen destroyer could have even worse consequences.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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StardustGenius wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 7:48 pm Spiderzilla, there is revenge in Godzilla's fight with Destoroyah, but its no where near the narrative you're describing.
Actually I’m saying that if a film is going to have that many callbacks to the original Godzilla film, I’m expecting the plot to be setting up a “rematch”. And that seemed to be where the film was headed for the most part. But when the story reached the opportunity for Godzilla’s definitive victory, it failed to deliver.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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The Oxygen Destroyer shouldn't be seen as an ultimate weapon that destroyed Godzilla, or any kind of enemy that he fought or lost to or can't defeat. That was never what it was supposed to be. Godzilla wasn't fighting it and his death via the OD was kind of a sideshow, really.

The real conflict was humanity vs. superweapons. The human characters were the ones fighting it, not Godzilla. It was the next step in the arms race, even deadlier than a nuke. That isn't supposed to be about power levels, though. It's about human recklessness in our pursuit of science for the sake of science, or having any kind of upper hand over our perceived enemies. The US and Soviet governments were fully prepared to DESTROY THE ENTIRE PLANET just to outdo each other. That kind of blind, idiot aggression was what the Oxygen Destroyer represented, and that was the real enemy in the movie. Not Godzilla. He was a byproduct of the real problem.

How does Destoroyah fit into that? I dunno. But he looks cool and he sells Bandai figures.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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JAGzilla wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:31 pm That kind of blind, idiot aggression was what the Oxygen Destroyer represented, and that was the real enemy in the movie. Not Godzilla. He was a byproduct of the real problem.
There was a computer simulation of Godzilla melting down and destroying Japan. I think that should count as a real enemy too, possibly even worse than the enemy that Destoroyah represented.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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JAGzilla wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:31 pm The Oxygen Destroyer shouldn't be seen as an ultimate weapon that destroyed Godzilla, or any kind of enemy that he fought or lost to or can't defeat. That was never what it was supposed to be. Godzilla wasn't fighting it and his death via the OD was kind of a sideshow, really.

The real conflict was humanity vs. superweapons. The human characters were the ones fighting it, not Godzilla. It was the next step in the arms race, even deadlier than a nuke. That isn't supposed to be about power levels, though. It's about human recklessness in our pursuit of science for the sake of science, or having any kind of upper hand over our perceived enemies. The US and Soviet governments were fully prepared to DESTROY THE ENTIRE PLANET just to outdo each other. That kind of blind, idiot aggression was what the Oxygen Destroyer represented, and that was the real enemy in the movie. Not Godzilla. He was a byproduct of the real problem.

How does Destoroyah fit into that? I dunno. But he looks cool and he sells Bandai figures.
HAHA! That's mostly true because Bandai hasn't done enough Destoroyah figures imo. Plenty of other forms to do too. If MMS ever did something like a Ultra Kaiju DX line, he'd be a great candidate for it.

Whether its the movie's intention or not, I think Destoroyah is a monster that represents the dangers of thoughtless "innovation" (see my tech bro AI comparison a few posts up). I think being based off the Oxygen Destroyer, whether the movie intended to or not, gives him stronger narrative themes, compared to the other cool creatures that were in place for the 1995 Godzilla movie. Bagan and Barubaroi would have been cool, especially the latter if they got someone like Keita Amemiya to help. But Destoroyah actually has a connection to a dangerous weapon that was an allusion to the arms race.

Spiderzilla, Godzilla got that dangerous because of how powerful he had become. He's still symbolizing the long lasting danger of atomic weapons brought when the genie was released from the bottle 50 years earlier.
Last edited by StardustGenius on Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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StardustGenius wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:51 pm Spiderzilla, Godzilla got that dangerous because of how powerful he had become. He's still symbolizing the long lasting danger of atomic weapons brought when the genie was released from the bottle 50 years earlier.
Godzilla’s danger level seemed pretty stable until his island exploded prior to the start of the film — I’m not sure what that’s supposed to symbolize.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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SpiderZilla wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:46 pm
JAGzilla wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:31 pm That kind of blind, idiot aggression was what the Oxygen Destroyer represented, and that was the real enemy in the movie. Not Godzilla. He was a byproduct of the real problem.
There was a computer simulation of Godzilla melting down and destroying Japan. I think that should count as a real enemy too, possibly even worse than the enemy that Destoroyah represented.
Sorry, I should have clarified: I meant in the context of the '54 movie. That was what the Oxygen Destroyer started out as, not as a threat to Godzilla. Godzilla as a character didn't really exist yet. The real conflict in that movie is humanity vs. the Oxygen Destroyer. Serizawa sacrificed himself to destroy the OD, not to defeat Godzilla.

In GvD, yes, Godzilla/the nuclear weapons he represents are definitely the real threat. Destoroyah comes across as a weird sideshow, honestly. If they were going to bring the OD back as a monster, I wish they'd buckled down and made that the core of the movie.

@Stardust: yeah, that interpretation makes sense.
Last edited by JAGzilla on Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Legion1979 wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:23 pm I feel you're completely incapable of seeing this in any way other than the extremely specific narrative you have in your head.
That’s funny because I feel the same way about your opinion. The only difference is that I don’t mind if you see things differently but for some reason you’re determined to dissuade me from my opinion. What’s the harm if I don’t see things your way? Is it absolutely necessary that you convince me that my opinion of the film is wrong?
You want the movie to be something it's not and are mad at it because it's not playing by your fandom logic.
I’m not mad. I’m not sure what gave you that impression.
Last edited by SpiderZilla on Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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SpiderZilla wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:09 pm
StardustGenius wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:51 pm Spiderzilla, Godzilla got that dangerous because of how powerful he had become. He's still symbolizing the long lasting danger of atomic weapons brought when the genie was released from the bottle 50 years earlier.
Godzilla’s danger level seemed pretty stable until his island exploded prior to the start of the film — I’m not sure what that’s supposed to symbolize.
What I'm trying to say is that Godzilla growing in power made him a bigger threat. Just by existing he posed a danger at that point. With the way the previous two movies end, it would not be unreasonable to think Godzilla and Junior would just keep to themselves, only showing up if they were provoked or if some threat showed up. But by GvsD he's a danger because of his current state.

The movie never brings it up in any explicit manner, and comparisons to Hedorah have been brought up before, but I don't think its a reach to think Destoroyah would be in a similar situation. That scene with the fish, or the swat team was the writing team showing what could happen. Imagine a hulking beast powered by the oxygen destroyer doing whatever it wants, or tons of mini oxygen destroyers roaming the world.

Again, Spiderzilla, I think I'm giving the movie a bit too much credit, but what I am explaining is actually within the movie's story.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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StardustGenius wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 6:04 am

Again, Spiderzilla, I think I'm giving the movie a bit too much credit, but what I am explaining is actually within the movie's story.
Exactly. I don't think it's a great movie, and I rarely come to bat for it. So that fact that I'm doing so now should speak volumes.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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StardustGenius wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 6:04 am
SpiderZilla wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:09 pm
Godzilla’s danger level seemed pretty stable until his island exploded prior to the start of the film — I’m not sure what that’s supposed to symbolize.
Again, Spiderzilla, I think I'm giving the movie a bit too much credit, but what I am explaining is actually within the movie's story.
The film’s story is what it is. But my unpopular opinion is that some of the symbolization gets muddied along the way. For those who say that in this film Godzilla symbolizes humankind’s irresponsible usage of nuclear power, I point out that the island’s explosion seems to be what finally pushed the situation over the edge and, as far as the story reveals, humanity didn’t trigger the explosion. But in this case I’m not saying that the screenwriters made a mistake because I’m not convinced that it was their intent for Godzilla to be symbolized exactly as some people describe so I can’t blame anyone if I didn’t see it that way.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Legion1979 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 6:22 am
StardustGenius wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 6:04 am

Again, Spiderzilla, I think I'm giving the movie a bit too much credit, but what I am explaining is actually within the movie's story.
Exactly. I don't think it's a great movie, and I rarely come to bat for it. So that fact that I'm doing so now should speak volumes.
Its always important to try an form opinions based within the context of the movie, the creator's intentions (if they have ever said so), the staffs' trainings and influences, or based on the mood or the climate time period. I'm a bit more flexible with others when making parallels (all the doppelganger and juggernaut character tropes from before), but I try to stay within the context of what I mentioned. Comparing Godzilla to a walking nuclear disaster is obvious. Destoroyah's being everything and in between from unchecked innovation, or Toho possibly being influenced by pop culture character tropes in the 90s could be a stretch, but at least there's some ground work for that.

Folks can make stuff up and say "Godzilla was avenging the loss to the oxygen destroyer", but I think "Godzilla is now so powerful he's on par or more dangerous than the OD" is more accurate.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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I think by the time the final act begins, it really seems like anything symbolic regarding the OD has been lost. By that point it's really just about two monsters bumping into each other and the film biding its time until Godzilla's death, the thing Toho had been promising all year.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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StardustGenius wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:00 am Folks can make stuff up and say "Godzilla was avenging the loss to the oxygen destroyer", but I think "Godzilla is now so powerful he's on par or more dangerous than the OD" is more accurate.
I want to clarify that I don’t believe Godzilla considered it “revenge” for what happened to the original Godzilla. It’s unlikely that this Godzilla knew what happened to the original Godzilla, and it’s even more unlikely that Godzilla would have connected Destoroyah to the Oxygen Destroyer. It’s we, the moviegoers, who understood the significance of the match-up.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Yeah, its the monster brawl folks paid to see. GvD is a movie that I think is just okay, but its inelegant in a lot of parts, and I don't mean the sfx work (which is ya know typical Heisei not great and pretty neat stuff mixed in between). All the symbolism with the OD is gone by the third act like you said. That sequence showing Godzilla potentially blowing up the world did great at showing how bleak the situation could get. A similar speculation sequence with Destoroyahs overrunning the world or something could have helped, or maybe one of the characters saying "Oh yeah, with Godzilla dead, we'll still have Destoroyah to deal with! Don't be so casual about this!". The third act only works well, depending on if you (the audience) has grown on Godzilla's character during the series run. Its not particularly strong as a stand alone viewing, or if you're new to the series and are trying out movies.

I would have preferred Godzilla taking out Destoroyah before he died, but I'm not in the same camp that thinks Destoroyah running away cheapens anything. I think the ending works just fine. Destoroyah got whooped when Godzilla got pushed into a corner, and he decided to just run away. "Just like a little bitch!" As they say. I dunno, strange to say it, but I think it adds a bit to the monster's character.
Last edited by StardustGenius on Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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StardustGenius wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:42 am I would have preferred Godzilla taking out Destoroyah before he died, but I'm not in the same camp that thinks Destoroyah running away cheapens anything. I think the ending works just fine. Destoroyah got whooped when Godzilla got pushed into a corner, and he decided to just run away. "Just like a little bitch!" As they say. I dunno, strange to say it, but I think it adds a bit to the monster's character.
100% agreed. Though again, that's where it becomes a problem for a lot of fans. There's a huge fandom narrative built around Destroyer as this satanic baddest of the bad. Fans don't want to see Destroyer try to flee and get brought down by the humans. They want to see something bigger and more badass. Toho filmed a scene of Destroyer only going down once Godzilla started to meltdown, which plays into this narrative. And now they can't see the movie ending any other way.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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Legion1979 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:01 am Toho filmed a scene of Destroyer only going down once Godzilla started to meltdown, which plays into this narrative. And now they can't see the movie ending any other way.
I don’t think there’s anything wrong with people preferring the alternate ending to a movie if they find it offers a more satisfying conclusion to their movie-watching experience. I can think of a few examples where I prefer the director’s cut of a film over the original theatrical release.

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Re: Unpopular Godzilla Opinions

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The problem with the sequence itself is that it's really terrible. Godzilla holds Destroyer by the horn and just smacks him until the monster disappears in the smoke. There's really nothing impressive or fulfilling about it. Destroyer getting blasted to hell, fleeing, getting shot down and then getting up AGAIN is already too much. But the execution is awful.

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