The Frankenstein/Gargantua Connection (or lack thereof)

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Do you prefer War of the Gargantuas with or without the Frankenstein references?

With
10
40%
Without
5
20%
No preference
10
40%
 
Total votes: 25

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MaxRebo320
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The Frankenstein/Gargantua Connection (or lack thereof)

Post by MaxRebo320 »

The War of the Gargantuas is a loose sequel to Frankenstein Conquers the World in every possible way. While earlier drafts of WOTG were reportedly a lot more overt in their connections to the previous film (with FCTW's human cast even written to return), the final product is miniscule in its ties.

At a glance, Gargantuas seems to mostly retcon the events of FCTW, renaming its three leads (and recasting two of them), moving their location from Hiroshima to Kyoto, and replacing the child/teenage Frankenstein in the flashbacks with baby Sanda. Akemi (Kumi Mizuno) even makes references to Sanda visiting her apartment before fleeing to Lake Biwa, which is exactly what happens with Frankie and Sueko (also Mizuno) in FCTW. So in a sense, one could say that Frankenstein and Sanda are simply the same creatures, with the change in appearance being no different from Godzilla's many different designs in the Showa series. Heck, towards the end of FCTW, the titular monster grows hairier and more ape-like. Plus, Frankenstein and Sanda share near-identical music cues via Ifukube.

BUT...later ancillary media has attempted to work around this perceived retcon and tie the films closer together by saying Sanda was birthed from a fragment of the dead Frankenstein at the end of FCTW. Given the plot point of his limbs needing protein to survive (as shown with the severed hand), the only real organ Sanda could have been spawned from is his heart. So either way, Frankenstein and Sanda are still the same creature, with the latter merely being a "reborn" version. Perhaps some of Sanda's actions mentioned by Akemi were a result of regressions/instincts from his previous life?

And on that topic, are Dr. Stewart (Tamblyn), Akemi (Mizuno) and Mamiya (Kenji Sahara) just totally different characters from FCTW's Dr. Bowen (Nick Adams), Sueko and Dr. Kawaji (Tadao Takashima)? Maybe Dr. Stewart is a colleague of Bowen's with an eerily-similar assistant?

I think it was a very wise move on UPA's part to omit the leftover Frankenstein references, especially considering FCTW was 5+ years old by the time WOTG finally released in the US. Still, I can't help but sort of enjoy WOTG's place in the vast library of Frankenstein movies, sitting alongside other tangible-at-best adaptations.

But what do you think?
Last edited by MaxRebo320 on Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Frankenstein/Gargantua Connection (or lack thereof)

Post by Gailah 1966 »

I agree that the fictional connection was some kind of a wise move. But overall I think I enjoy both movies when considering them as standalone movies.
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Re: The Frankenstein/Gargantua Connection (or lack thereof)

Post by LSD Jellyfish »

I consider Frankenstien's Monsters: Sanda vs. Gaira a sequel, but in the same way Ghidorah the Three Head Monster is a loose sequel to Rodan. I wouldn't consider War of the Gargantuas a sequel. I hope that makes sense. I also don't think much is lost or added if someone views WOG as a stand alone film or seperately.

A long time ago, in 2007/2008, Tokyo Shock released DVDs of Frankenstien Conquers the World, Atragon, Dogora, and Varan. I got all of them for Xmas (that was a great time). I watched FCTW and around the same time I was looking at the old TK site. I'm not sure if even TK listed it as a sequel. For a long time, WOTG was a film I'd look at the monster Bios of Gaira for, and wonder what could be, eagerly waiting to watch it. Then it got that awesome release with Rodan. I know how a western company makes DVDs shouldn't matter, but it's funny they decided to package Rodan with WOTG rather than FCTW. By the time the DVD came out, I knew of the connection between the two films, but its weird.

I gotta say, that scene with the Baby Sanda is one of the most confusing inclusions in Toho's library. When I originally watched War of the Gargantuas for the first time I assumed that Baby Sanda was birthed from Frankenstien's remains, be it his heart or something else. I assumed that Frankenstien died in FCTW, and his cells were seperated and two new beings were born: Cells from the mountain that formed Sanda, and cells that wound up in the ocean that formed Gaira. But actually watching the film and what it says, it's very muddy. Was Sanda created first, from Frankenstien's heart, and then much later after being injured somehow Gaira was created when those cells entered water?

How long did it take for the Baby Sanda to grow into an adult? If its something like 10-20 years then absolutely it's not a sequel. If it's like a few weeks, it's fine. I always just assumed that the caretaker, be it whichever character, took care of Frankenstien and then Sanda.

It's also possible that what we believe to be Sanda in that scene[is supposed to be frankenstien. It's confusing and makes little sense.

It gets far worse if you consider Sanda attacking the Giant Ocotpus to be continuation of the alternate ending of FCTW. As in: Frankenstien beats Baragon. Cells that fall off from his fight with Baragon eventually form Sanda. The Giant Ocotpus ending happens and Frankenstien's body is dragged out to sea. Those cells form Gaira, who gets revenge/continues his life from Frankenstien...
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Re: The Frankenstein/Gargantua Connection (or lack thereof)

Post by JAGzilla »

God creates man. Man creates Frankenstein. God creates Baragon. Baragon destroys man. Frankenstein destroys Baragon. Frankenstein creates Sanda. God creates octopus. Octopus destroys Frankenstein. Frankenstein creates Gaira. Gaira destroys octopus. Gaira destroys man. God creates volcano. Volcano destroys Sanda and Gaira.
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Re: The Frankenstein/Gargantua Connection (or lack thereof)

Post by edgaguirus »

Both films work on their own and have very little to suggest a sequel. The dialogue reference mentioned by Maxrebo offers a small link, as does Oodako, but most of WoTG stands on its own feet. Personally, I see these movies as their own thing, but with a couple of references to convince you this is a Frankenstein film. FCTW seems to have had a good box office, so maybe that's why Toho tried to link them.
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Re: The Frankenstein/Gargantua Connection (or lack thereof)

Post by JVM »

They were related films in development, but in the final films there is no direct relationship.

They certainly share things that may be in common between Toho science fiction films during the Honda-Tsubaraya-Tanaka-Ifukube era, but nothing more substantive than any of the others.
LSD Jellyfish wrote:I know how a western company makes DVDs shouldn't matter, but it's funny they decided to package Rodan with WOTG rather than FCTW. By the time the DVD came out, I knew of the connection between the two films, but its weird.
At the time Classic Media obtained the rights to Rodan and War of the Gargantuas, I believe Tokyo Shock still had the rights to Frankenstein vs. Baragon.
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Re: The Frankenstein/Gargantua Connection (or lack thereof)

Post by Legion1979 »

The Japanese title of Garganutas features the heading "The Frankenstein Brothers". Sequel enough for me.

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Re: The Frankenstein/Gargantua Connection (or lack thereof)

Post by HedorahIsBestGirl »

I guess I don't have a strong preference. Is it weird that WotG is kind of a remake of FvB with one of the stars returning in an identical but differently named role but also makes references to it? Yes. Does it hinder my enjoyment of either film? No. Making the connection more blatant wouldn't have improved WotG for me but also wouldn't have ruined it.
Last edited by HedorahIsBestGirl on Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Frankenstein/Gargantua Connection (or lack thereof)

Post by mikelcho »

I seem to remember seeing somewhere that, in the original conception of the story, Sanda was supposed to be Frankenstein having survived his death at the end of the previous film and evolved into a different form while Gaira was supposed to have originated from the severed hand of Frankenstein from said previous film that somehow got into the ocean where it revived, regenerated and combined with ocean plankton until it became Gaira.
Last edited by mikelcho on Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Frankenstein/Gargantua Connection (or lack thereof)

Post by edgaguirus »

Legion1979 wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 3:39 am The Japanese title of Garganutas features the heading "The Frankenstein Brothers". Sequel enough for me.
That is true, but most of us probably first saw this movie with the title War of the Gargantuas. I suppose that could play a role in how we see this question. We're so used to seeing Sanda as a unique kaiju rather than a hair covered Frank.
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Re: The Frankenstein/Gargantua Connection (or lack thereof)

Post by LegendZilla »

I think that they can work without the Frankenstein connection, at least in a literal sense. I think they should still be thematically tied though.

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Re: The Frankenstein/Gargantua Connection (or lack thereof)

Post by JVM »

mikelcho wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:30 am I seem to remember seeing somewhere that, in the original conception of the story, Sanda was supposed to be Frankenstein having survived his death at the end of the previous film and evolved into a different form while Gaira was supposed to have originated from the severed hand of Frankenstein from said previous film that somehow got into the ocean where it revived, regenerated and combined with ocean plankton until it became Gaira.
I would be genuinely interested how much of this came from the film's actual development and how much might be from later Toho.
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Re: The Frankenstein/Gargantua Connection (or lack thereof)

Post by Gailah 1966 »

I mean considering both versions of Frankenstein conquers the world would mean they created a cinematic MULTIVERSE!

In the US-version Frankenstein falls into the damaged ground --> becomes Sanda in the sequel
In the Japanes version Frankenstein was draged into the water --> becomes Gairah in the sequel
Last edited by Gailah 1966 on Tue Jun 06, 2023 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Frankenstein/Gargantua Connection (or lack thereof)

Post by darthzilla99 »

Standalone or connected works for me. I was always under the impression that Sanda came from the severed hand, which was taken care of and studied by the Japanese Government while Gaira was just Frankenstein cells that evolved and mutated in the ocean.
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Re: The Frankenstein/Gargantua Connection (or lack thereof)

Post by StreamOfKaijuness »

JVM wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:42 am
LSD Jellyfish wrote:I know how a western company makes DVDs shouldn't matter, but it's funny they decided to package Rodan with WOTG rather than FCTW. By the time the DVD came out, I knew of the connection between the two films, but its weird.
At the time Classic Media obtained the rights to Rodan and War of the Gargantuas, I believe Tokyo Shock still had the rights to Frankenstein vs. Baragon.
It's true that Media Blasters/Tokyo Shock licensed Frankenstein vs. Baragon from Toho in 2006 and released it on DVD in 2007. Before that, though, Classic Media actually held the North American distribution rights to Frankenstein vs. Baragon, and they chose to let those rights revert to Toho instead of releasing it themselves!

Classic Media purchased the film library of Golden Books in August 2001, which included the rights to Godzilla Raids Again and Ghidorah the Three-Headed Monster. A month earlier, in July 2001, Classic Media acquired many of the assets of UPA and with them the rights to a whole slew of classic Toho films, including five other Godzilla movies (Godzilla, Mothra vs. Godzilla, Monster Zero, Godzilla's Revenge, Terror of Mechagodzilla) as well as Rodan, War of the Gargantuas, Prophecies of Nostradamus, ESPY, Conflagration, the Dracula trilogy... and Frankenstein vs. Baragon.

Classic Media's rights to several of their Toho films were up for renewal in fall of 2006. After initially releasing a half-assed DVD box set in 2002 containing Rodan and four of the five Godzilla movies that Simitar had previously released on DVD in 1998, Classic Media in 2005 began planning their line of "Toho Master Collection" DVDs. They negotiated with Toho to obtain elements for the Japanese versions of the films, and they decided to renew the rights to only the movies that they thought would sell.

Thus, Classic Media in 2005 renewed their rights to all seven of their Godzilla movies along with Rodan and War of the Gargantuas, and they allowed their rights to Frankenstein vs. Baragon, Prophecies of Nostradamus, ESPY, Conflagration and the Dracula trilogy to expire and revert to Toho. Media Blasters swooped up the rights to Frankenstein vs. Baragon in October 2006 as soon as Toho made it available to license, and they released their two-disc DVD with three cuts of the film through their Tokyo Shock label in June 2007. Classic Media released their "Toho Master Collection" DVDs of their seven Godzilla movies from September 2006 through November 2007, followed in September 2008 by their Rodan and War of the Gargantuas set which also included their original documentary Bringing Godzilla Down to Size. According to Keith Aiken on the old Monster Zero/Club Tokyo/SciFi Japan forums, former Classic Media producer Steve Vincent told him that they later realized they had made a mistake by letting Frankenstein vs. Baragon go.
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Re: The Frankenstein/Gargantua Connection (or lack thereof)

Post by JVM »

StreamOfKaijuness wrote: Sun Jun 11, 2023 6:46 pm
JVM wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 1:42 am
LSD Jellyfish wrote:I know how a western company makes DVDs shouldn't matter, but it's funny they decided to package Rodan with WOTG rather than FCTW. By the time the DVD came out, I knew of the connection between the two films, but its weird.
At the time Classic Media obtained the rights to Rodan and War of the Gargantuas, I believe Tokyo Shock still had the rights to Frankenstein vs. Baragon.
It's true that Media Blasters/Tokyo Shock licensed Frankenstein vs. Baragon from Toho in 2006 and released it on DVD in 2007. Before that, though, Classic Media actually held the North American distribution rights to Frankenstein vs. Baragon, and they chose to let those rights revert to Toho instead of releasing it themselves!

Classic Media purchased the film library of Golden Books in August 2001, which included the rights to Godzilla Raids Again and Ghidorah the Three-Headed Monster. A month earlier, in July 2001, Classic Media acquired many of the assets of UPA and with them the rights to a whole slew of classic Toho films, including five other Godzilla movies (Godzilla, Mothra vs. Godzilla, Monster Zero, Godzilla's Revenge, Terror of Mechagodzilla) as well as Rodan, War of the Gargantuas, Prophecies of Nostradamus, ESPY, Conflagration, the Dracula trilogy... and Frankenstein vs. Baragon.

Classic Media's rights to several of their Toho films were up for renewal in fall of 2006. After initially releasing a half-assed DVD box set in 2002 containing Rodan and four of the five Godzilla movies that Simitar had previously released on DVD in 1998, Classic Media in 2005 began planning their line of "Toho Master Collection" DVDs. They negotiated with Toho to obtain elements for the Japanese versions of the films, and they decided to renew the rights to only the movies that they thought would sell.

Thus, Classic Media in 2005 renewed their rights to all seven of their Godzilla movies along with Rodan and War of the Gargantuas, and they allowed their rights to Frankenstein vs. Baragon, Prophecies of Nostradamus, ESPY, Conflagration and the Dracula trilogy to expire and revert to Toho. Media Blasters swooped up the rights to Frankenstein vs. Baragon in October 2006 as soon as Toho made it available to license, and they released their two-disc DVD with three cuts of the film through their Tokyo Shock label in June 2007. Classic Media released their "Toho Master Collection" DVDs of their seven Godzilla movies from September 2006 through November 2007, followed in September 2008 by their Rodan and War of the Gargantuas set which also included their original documentary Bringing Godzilla Down to Size. According to Keith Aiken on the old Monster Zero/Club Tokyo/SciFi Japan forums, former Classic Media producer Steve Vincent told him that they later realized they had made a mistake by letting Frankenstein vs. Baragon go.
This is all complete and utter news to me -- but I really appreciate your bringing it to my attention here. I was under the (false) impression that Classic Media had only owned the Godzilla titles they released in 2002 and picked up the other titles (GRA, GTTHM) and War of the Gargantuas when they renewed for the Toho Master Collection. I had no idea they had a more extensive library in the first place, which makes their 2002 entries look even more incomplete. The excitement for the Toho Master Collection was something truly special and I'm glad I was around for it.
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Re: The Frankenstein/Gargantua Connection (or lack thereof)

Post by InfiniteHollywood »

This won't help the OP's question at all, but when I was a kid, I first saw this film I believe on a TBS midday airing, possibly on Super Scary Saturday with Grandpa (don't call me Munster) but possibly somewhere else. And somehow, my brother and I watched it together in-between jumping on the couch and wrestling as our own giant monsters... And somehow hallucinated an alternate ending of this film where a THIRD Gargantua, albino white, shows up and fights the titular monsters to their death. He may have also had one arm. It's a bit foggy these days.

The weird thing is, my brother and I both remember this vividly (well less vividly now but you know what I mean we could recount specific details for years) and obviously no such cut of this film exists. The best I can surmise is that at some point there must have been commercials featuring other monster fights (possibly this was a marathon and the aforementioned Munster show often would show random clips of movies during wraparound segments and provide weird commentary that may have skewed us to believe something else) and we somehow had a dual memory of something that just didn't exist.

Pre-internet and this movie not being widely distributed, led to any subsequent viewing to make us think we were seeing an alternate cut (which was common in those days to have scenes missing from VHS or TV airings of kaiju films) and even today when I watch this movie it still feels like there is something missing. I've often wondered if possibly there was a connection to the Frankenstein film... But I don't think there was as I also remember pretty distinctly seeing that film a lot on TV as a kid and never much caring for it because Frankenstein's monster looked a bit like a goofy guy in his underwear and it felt clunky and nonsensical (something that's not entirely changed in more recent viewings) but I dunno, it's all a bit weird.

I've always wondered what was the exact combination of events that led to us both believing we saw something else.

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Re: The Frankenstein/Gargantua Connection (or lack thereof)

Post by Pkmatrix »

Personally, I prefer to think of War of the Gargantuas as a separate and unconnected movie. I know it was intended to be a sequel, but so much was changed between the two it's just easier to think of them as unrelated.

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Re: The Frankenstein/Gargantua Connection (or lack thereof)

Post by DrBreakfastMachine »

I watched the dub tonight for the first time in well over a decade and while ultimately I do think it works better without the Frankenstein connection, I just want to point out how bizarre and hilarious it is that gargantuas are apparently just a known entity in the dub's universe.

Like a sailor sees a jolly green giant while at sea and the authorities immediately ring up Dr. Stewart and ask him about his gargantua. It's not being covered up like the titans in the Monsterverse, everyone just knows what a gargantua is. And this gets stranger and stranger the deeper you get into the movie, because they also don't seem too surprised that Gaira shrugs off a full-force maser assault for several minutes with fairly minor injuries all things considered, and furthermore, Stewart suggests very casually that gargantua cells are simply so hardy that if a piece of one is scraped off the main body, it will grow into a complete new gargantua.

If you have the Frankenstein backstory, then at least there's some kind of explanation for how supernaturally resilient these big hairy fuckers are, because the Frankenstein monster himself is functionally immortal in the Toho universe, so anything born of his cells would logically be very durable too. But the dub basically implies that gargantuas are some kind of completely natural, albeit rare, organism native to the Japanese alps.

Now I know, Toho pulls that kind of shit all the time, but for some reason it feels especially goofy in this one. It feels like you walked into a movie late and missed the part where the scientist actually explains where the monsters came from.
Last edited by DrBreakfastMachine on Sat Sep 02, 2023 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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