Talkback Thread #16: The Return of Godzilla

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Re: Talkback Thread #16: The Return of Godzilla

Post by G-Matt »

H-Man wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:54 am Following the passing of Koichi Sugiyama, I was wondering: what have Reijiro Kokoru's most notable works outside of The Return of Godzilla been?
Probably one of them is the 89 Guyver series.
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Re: Talkback Thread #16: The Return of Godzilla

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Rewatching RoG right now. It's holding up very well, and I'll say more once it's over. Wanted to say while it's fresh in my mind, though, that the JSDF assault in Tokyo Bay was fantastic. Lots of cool shots, particularly the jets crashing into the ocean in front of Godzilla, the ground forces first opening fire, and Godzilla sweeping his ray along the shore to wipe them out. And it really stands out for being one of, if not the most brutally honest military battles in the franchise. It's not just a bunch of special effects blasting each other, it's a war and people are dying. You see the pilots burning as they go down with their jets, the moment when the infantry realize what's about to happen and try to flee, men on fire and being incinerated. Really dark, powerful stuff. I can see why it's typically shied away from, but it fits this movie perfectly.

Added in 2 hours 38 minutes 52 seconds:
And it's over. It really is one of the best, most intelligent Godzilla films. I like the global, Cold War perspective, and I appreciate that they didn't go the easy route and make the Soviets out to be villains. Yes, they make a foolhardy mistake that results in a nuclear missile being launched, but overall much more time is spent giving them sympathetic human faces than is done for the Americans.

The score is great, very unique. A bit lacking in the kind of punchy, exciting sound we're used to from composers like Ifukube or Oshima, but the more subdued, downbeat, melancholy style, again, fits this movie well. And I really enjoyed that overall tone; this isn't much of a fun popcorn flick like most Godzilla content, it's all quite sad. The attack on Tokyo feels like an actual disaster, with appropriate dread surrounding it. The military action, as previously stated, feels grimly authentic. The nuclear weapons are handled with all due gravity, no "gIvE uS aLL yOuR nUkeS" bullshit here. Even Godzilla is a walking conflict, simultaneously a terrible threat to be eliminated, an uncomfortable abomination that humanity deserves, and a pitiable animal that never asked for any of this. The latter element is unintentionally helped along by the suit, with its derpy eyes and the obvious difficulty it was giving the actor. It looked like he was struggling to move or even see.

Godzilla's rampage was better than I remembered. Yeah, he does a lot of aimless walking around or even just standing still, but again, that fits his animalistic/living punishment style. He's not necessarily attacking Tokyo out of malice or a desire to destroy, it's just his fate. It's what he is. And there are some extremely standout moments during the rampage, particularly when he passes over top of the command bunker, and when he pushes over a skyscraper to crush the Super-X. His attack on the train was filmed well, but looked unconvincing due to the limitations of the suit.

The 'trapped in the skyscraper' sequence was a mixed bag. On the one hand, I had a hard time being concerned about the dull, underdeveloped characters, and most of it lacks urgency or a real sense of peril. On the other hand, I appreciate the concept for its uniqueness in the franchise, and it was a good move for this film specifically. Tokyo in the Showa days didn't have these huge towers, so incorporating them into the main action like they did was logical for a modern reboot, taking advantage of a new feature.

Characters, again, were mixed. Goro, Naoko, and Hiroshi were just kind of there, although Hayashida filled the scientist role well. The Prime Minister was surprisingly pretty great. They tend to be incompetent or barely present in Godzilla films, but this guy had a major role, and did a very solid job handling the crisis. He was likable and easy to root for.
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Re: Talkback Thread #16: The Return of Godzilla

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I watched this about a month ago. It's not my favorite from this period, but as an actual FILM it holds up better than just about everything that followed it in the VS series.

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Re: Talkback Thread #16: The Return of Godzilla

Post by Major sssspielberg! »

It's phenomenal from a production standpoint imo, Nakano's team really pulled off an amazing sense of weight and scale with the miniatures and Godzilla himself. It manages to feel so grounded even with the 'masers' and Super-X. I think of scenes like the smoke stack hitting the ground and how they just crash like actual (I'm assuming) concrete structures. I would argue possibly the best miniature and tokusatsu work from a 'realism' standpoint in the series. Biollante would be the one film that beats Return in terms of story and characters though which depending on your metric would be fair to say makes it the best "film" of the VS series.
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Re: Talkback Thread #16: The Return of Godzilla

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I was just reading this interview with R.J. Kizer who worked on the American version of ROG. In it, he describes a hypothetical scene with who I refer to as "the bum":
Going back to the idea that sometimes things that seem to work on the set don’t work when viewing it on the big screen, we had a shot that was supposed to try to pay off the tramp character. He kind of disappears, and I always assumed he was crushed under the debris of a building Godzilla knocks down. My plan was to start with a black screen which wipes off quickly — as though it was Godzilla’s shadow moving away — revealing the arm of the tramp lying on top of a pile of rubble.

On the wrist of that arm would be a wristwatch. I wanted the time on the watch frozen to 8:15 — the time the first atomic bomb exploded over Hiroshima. The fortieth anniversary of the bombing of Hiroshima was only 11 days away, and there was a lot of press already about it. I thought, maybe naively, that it would be a nice acknowledgment of the connection between Godzilla and the historical event [that led] to his creation.


Apparently this scene was filmed and then cut. On one hand, the bum is unironically one of the most memorable characters in any Godzilla movie, but I'm still not sure how I feel abotu this hypothetical scene. Anyways, I found this to be a fascinating interview.

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Re: Talkback Thread #16: The Return of Godzilla

Post by edgaguirus »

That would have been an interesting touch to the scene. Japanese audiences might have understood it, but I don't think the international audience would.
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Re: Talkback Thread #16: The Return of Godzilla

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shadowgigan wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:10 pm I was just reading this interview with R.J. Kizer who worked on the American version of ROG. In it, he describes a hypothetical scene with who I refer to as "the bum":
Going back to the idea that sometimes things that seem to work on the set don’t work when viewing it on the big screen, we had a shot that was supposed to try to pay off the tramp character. He kind of disappears, and I always assumed he was crushed under the debris of a building Godzilla knocks down. My plan was to start with a black screen which wipes off quickly — as though it was Godzilla’s shadow moving away — revealing the arm of the tramp lying on top of a pile of rubble.

On the wrist of that arm would be a wristwatch. I wanted the time on the watch frozen to 8:15 — the time the first atomic bomb exploded over Hiroshima. The fortieth anniversary of the bombing of Hiroshima was only 11 days away, and there was a lot of press already about it. I thought, maybe naively, that it would be a nice acknowledgment of the connection between Godzilla and the historical event [that led] to his creation.


Apparently this scene was filmed and then cut. On one hand, the bum is unironically one of the most memorable characters in any Godzilla movie, but I'm still not sure how I feel abotu this hypothetical scene. Anyways, I found this to be a fascinating interview.
Personally, I think it would have been in poor taste for two reasons. First, because I don't think that kind of explicit reference to such a tragic event should be associated only with a comic relief character. Second, because I especially don't feel like it would be an appropriate addition for American filmmakers to make to a Japanese production.
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Re: Talkback Thread #16: The Return of Godzilla

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eabaker wrote: Thu Jan 13, 2022 9:25 am
shadowgigan wrote: Wed Jan 12, 2022 10:10 pm I was just reading this interview with R.J. Kizer who worked on the American version of ROG. In it, he describes a hypothetical scene with who I refer to as "the bum":
Going back to the idea that sometimes things that seem to work on the set don’t work when viewing it on the big screen, we had a shot that was supposed to try to pay off the tramp character. He kind of disappears, and I always assumed he was crushed under the debris of a building Godzilla knocks down. My plan was to start with a black screen which wipes off quickly — as though it was Godzilla’s shadow moving away — revealing the arm of the tramp lying on top of a pile of rubble.

On the wrist of that arm would be a wristwatch. I wanted the time on the watch frozen to 8:15 — the time the first atomic bomb exploded over Hiroshima. The fortieth anniversary of the bombing of Hiroshima was only 11 days away, and there was a lot of press already about it. I thought, maybe naively, that it would be a nice acknowledgment of the connection between Godzilla and the historical event [that led] to his creation.


Apparently this scene was filmed and then cut. On one hand, the bum is unironically one of the most memorable characters in any Godzilla movie, but I'm still not sure how I feel abotu this hypothetical scene. Anyways, I found this to be a fascinating interview.
Personally, I think it would have been in poor taste for two reasons. First, because I don't think that kind of explicit reference to such a tragic event should be associated only with a comic relief character. Second, because I especially don't feel like it would be an appropriate addition for American filmmakers to make to a Japanese production.
The scene also takes place at the middle of the night, not 8:15.
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Re: Talkback Thread #16: The Return of Godzilla

Post by HedorahIsBestGirl »

Wow.

I just got to this film on my chronological rewatch last night and I was very impressed. I've seen RoG less than perhaps any other film in the series and my opinion seems to change every time I watch it. In general, I've ranged from "meh" to "good but not great." Now I can definitively say that this film is great!

The special effects work and the cinematography is some of the best in the franchise. The Godzilla suit, the sets and miniatures, the crispness of the various beams and lasers, they all look fantastic. There's also some really impressive camera work; 3 standouts for me: POV shot of Godzilla coming through the fog before he's revealed; Godzilla walking down the street framed between (and later reflected by) buildings as he first enters Tokyo; the nuclear fallout reviving Godzilla.

The music is beautiful, too! Kudos to Koroku for composing a score that's very distinct from the many Ifukube and Sato scores preceding it while still being a perfect fit for the visual content. The theme that plays as Godzilla falls into Mt. Mihara deserves special mention.

Of course, it's worth mentioning that it's the first Godzilla film in 30 years to have a strong anti-nuclear message. It may be a little more heavy-handed with this message than the '54 film but it still works. The way that Cold War tensions are worked into the plot is among the most interesting aspects of the film.

It's not a perfect film; the biggest weak point is definitely the human cast. None of them are memorable, save Keiju Kobayashi as the beleaguered Prime Minister. His ability to convey emotions with a simple face expression is commendable. Unfortunately, this did seem to set a trend for the rest of the Heisei series; the main characters are bland but there's at least one memorable supporting character in the mix. I watched all 15 Showa movies before this one and almost all of them had a cast who were more enjoyable, even if their characters were no better developed.

It's a damn shame that the remaining Heisei films (at least post-Biollante) didn't have the same production value as this one. I'm going to continue watching through them in the coming weeks but, presently, The Return of Godzilla is my favorite Heisei film and I'd rank it favorably against most of the Showa films.
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Re: Talkback Thread #16: The Return of Godzilla

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My biggest gripe with this movie is that once Godzilla gets into Tokyo the film seriously runs out of gas. I love G54 because Godzilla aggressively carves a path straight through the city and literally levels all of it. In G84 he gets to a certain point, stays in a big open area and the momentum of the film just dies.

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Re: Talkback Thread #16: The Return of Godzilla

Post by HedorahIsBestGirl »

Legion1979 wrote: Fri Nov 18, 2022 10:17 am My biggest gripe with this movie is that once Godzilla gets into Tokyo the film seriously runs out of gas. I love G54 because Godzilla aggressively carves a path straight through the city and literally levels all of it. In G84 he gets to a certain point, stays in a big open area and the momentum of the film just dies.
I think the same criticism could be made of the original; once Godzilla's done with Tokyo, he spends the last 20 minutes hiding in Tokyo Bay, waiting to get disintegrated. Thankfully, the drama between Emiko, Ogata and Serizawa was enough to carry the film to its conclusion.

In the case of RoG, it's true Godzilla doesn't do as much "rampaging" as the original but I wouldn't go so far as to say the film completely loses momentum. The Super X fight, while not amazing, is notably the first instance of human hardware holding its own against Godzilla, and the threat of the nuclear strike was an interesting twist. It's certainly not as action-packed as most Godzilla climaxes but it holds my interest well.

Of other "Solo Godzilla" films, I actually think Shin has the biggest problem with lost momentum in the third act, which is my biggest criticism of that film.
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Re: Talkback Thread #16: The Return of Godzilla

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With just a few tweaks, this really could've been the perfect Godzilla film. One flaw I find with Godzilla's design in that his eyes are a bit too big.

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Re: Talkback Thread #16: The Return of Godzilla

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New G85 merch. from Cavity Colors: https://www.instagram.com/p/CpdaHLOPKH1 ... MyMTA2M2Y=

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Re: Talkback Thread #16: The Return of Godzilla

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I would love that hoodie design on a shirt.
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Re: Talkback Thread #16: The Return of Godzilla

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Rewatched Godzilla 1985 for the first time in years last night. Did not fully appreciate until now that this movie is an adaption similar to KoTM 1956 where the film is edited quite a bit for an American audience in comparison to later Heisei films, which are just poor dubs.

In some ways, I found 1985 to be more effective than the original in making Godzilla appear more menacing. There are very little quiet moments or character development as it seems most of those scenes are cut to showcase the action more. I think this succeeds in making the Godzilla scenes more entertaining and better paced at the cost of having very cardboard characters. If I am not mistaken, seems like full character arcs and plots were completely removed from the American version.

Seems like a missed opportunity as I do like certain changes they made with the adaptation. Extra scenes with Raymond Burr are welcome and give this version merit for rewatch. I also think that there are some changes to sound effects and soundtrack that I really liked in 1985 vs. the original.

Is the OG Japanese movie better? I would say so. Does 1985 do a better job of making a mindless B monster movie? For sure, in the same way I like the changes made from Gojira to KoTM.
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Re: Talkback Thread #16: The Return of Godzilla

Post by HedorahIsBestGirl »

GodzillaXGomoraFight wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 7:36 am Extra scenes with Raymond Burr are welcome and give this version merit for rewatch.
I'm thinking of rewatching KOTM '56 and Godzilla 1985 back-to-back since I recently rewatched the Japanese versions of both films. My memory is that Raymond Burr is wasted in G85 with his new scenes adding nothing to the film, but I haven't watched in a long time. Did you think his scenes were any good?
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Re: Talkback Thread #16: The Return of Godzilla

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HedorahIsBestGirl wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 9:29 am
GodzillaXGomoraFight wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 7:36 am Extra scenes with Raymond Burr are welcome and give this version merit for rewatch.
I'm thinking of rewatching KOTM '56 and Godzilla 1985 back-to-back since I recently rewatched the Japanese versions of both films. My memory is that Raymond Burr is wasted in G85 with his new scenes adding nothing to the film, but I haven't watched in a long time. Did you think his scenes were any good?
Maybe only the first and last scenes. First scene of Raymond Burr is done pretty nicely and the last one has his famous monologue. Otherwise, he is there on the side making pretty basic commentary to the military.
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Re: Talkback Thread #16: The Return of Godzilla

Post by miguelnuva »

Burr adds a lot to the movie but only if you watched Kotm 56. If you watch Gojira only he adds nothing.

When looked at as only kotm and 1985 the two movies create a major mystery as its implied Godzilla didn't die in 56.
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Re: Talkback Thread #16: The Return of Godzilla

Post by Follinollante »

Ooh, now I wanna watch this one. (Still living with the fam, so I have to ask:) Is this one family-friendly, violence aside?

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Re: Talkback Thread #16: The Return of Godzilla

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Follinollante wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:30 pm Ooh, now I wanna watch this one. (Still living with the fam, so I have to ask:) Is this one family-friendly, violence aside?
Minus a grotesque corpse in the opening scene, and a very bleak atmosphere, I suppose it’s family safe, but that’ll be really up to you.
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