How should the next monsterverse movie create stakes?

[darthzilla99]

Mods, if you feel this doesn't warrant it's thread, feel free to merge it with the main speculation thread.

I have been noticing the last few superhero movies have had criticisms of no danger and stakes. I haven't seen Shazam 2 or Antman and the wasp quantamania. Having said that, I have been hearing critics and GA complain that no one dies or that there’s no consequences in those two movies. Jurassic World Dominion also got heavy criticism for no stakes since no character dies.

This got me thinking that this could be a potential roadblock for the Godzilla and Kong movie. Right now the majority of the GA and critics aren't attached to any human character other than maybe Jia. As such, unless Jia dies (not likely imo and possibly cause controversy because she's deaf), no one's going to care that much if a human character dies.

This brings me to the Titans. I think the only time people are going to feel stakes is if a titan dies or is in major danger. The only problem is that currently only Godzilla and Kong have had development and attachment to the GA and critics. As such I currently see three directions to take for creating stakes with the titans.

1. Godzilla (not likely depending on Toho) or Kong or both die.
2. Godzilla and Kong get permanent injuries that negatively affect their fighting abilities going forward. We are talking things like either become blind or deaf, Godzilla loses a dorsal plate and thus his Atomic breath is permanently nerfed, Kong loses an arm or hand, ect....
3. Develop another good Titan and then kill it for sympathy.

I was thinking Behemoth is a good candidate for option 3. He's a mammal and thus is easier to get sympathy from the GA. And among the monsterverse fans he's well liked for his design.

My thought is early in the movie you show him doing something awesome and heroic like helping Godzilla or Kong protect a large group of people who then show awe and gratitude. Reason being is he already got owned in the comics so we need one awesome moment from him. Then later have the antagonist fight and kill Behemoth while Behemoth is heroically protecting said area or people. Then later have Godzilla or Kong find his dead body and show them let out a raging roar.

So how do you think we need to create tension, danger, and stakes?

[LSD Jellyfish]

The main issue with the Marvel Movies, a poor comparison to make, is that their stakes have begun impossible to comprehend. It's very abstract to wipe out timelines, or different realities, and X,Y, or Z. Likewise, it's been further muddied, by making it clear that if they really want to, they can very easily undo any sort of situation they want.

But before we state what we want, we need to consider the stakes of what we have seen:

In Godzilla (2014), the stake is MUTOs multiplying beyond belief, as well as a nuclear bomb going off in SF. A city destroyed, and an ancient creature rapidly multiplying and changing human's role in the earth: it's understandable. It's worth noting that while MUTOs appear to be hostile to humans, and their existence with their powers is a mere threat to humanity, it's possible humans CAN exist in a world overun by them. As the famous line goes, "And they're going to send us back to the stone age!".

In Kong Skull Island, the stakes are relatively low. Realistically, the Skullcrawlers are not as big a threat as the MUTOs, and within the cotnext of the film, most of the threat is contained to Skull Island. Rather, the stakes are hoping our cast, and Kong survive to the end. It does this by developing the human cast, and survival is the drive. Very understandable for audiences from a primitive instinctual level.

Godzilla King of the Monsters raises the stakes, and I think it's alright. King Ghidorah is capable of quick, mass destruction, worldwide, just like his original incarnations. They add an extra flair to have him control the other titans. It's higher than Godzilla 2014, because Ghidorah's motivations are clear: Ghidorah wants to suck all the life from the planet, and then move on somewhere else. And yet it places this threat in an unforunately relevant lens, climate crisis. Floods, Hurricanes, and natural disasters, triggered by climate change are all too familar. While excessive, and I wish the film showed it a little more, the flooding of DC is a tangible threat to Americans.

Godzilla vs. Kong actually has LOW stakes compared to Godzilla 2014. It's more of a personal conflict between Godzilla and Kong. Then MG shows up. Okay, Mechagodzilla is STRONG, berserk, and causes DAMAGE, but realistically, how long could it last? Would it's energy source end? Would militaries be able to counter it? Stakes are relatively low, than the earth being overrun by EMP monsters and Ghidorah sucking the life from the Earth.

So in conclusion, only one film out of the 4 really has "world ending, humanity ending" stakes, and that's Godzilla KOTM. The dialback was appreciated. But none of the stakes have gotten anywhere near as crazy as the MCU, or BS with multiverse reality hopping.

Honestly, just stay in KOTM's range and you're fine. It does feel like the series, if it stops with the next one, has more than earned a much more apocolyptical and finality to it though.

[JAGzilla]

Introduce a cute baby Kong and put him in danger. You can charge anything you like. Five thousand a ticket, twenty thousand a ticket - and people will pay it.

[JVM]

The stakes between human-driven stories and monster-driven stories are always going to be different by necessity.

I disagree firmly with the constant insistence in movie discourse that you need a major character death to create stakes. There are plenty of classic movies that succeed without going to that level, or where death is post-climax but not used to set stakes. Gojira does have Serizawa's tragic fate, but it doesn't use that as a way to tell us the stakes of the story. I think the idea death is a necessary component for a scale story is widely exaggerated. There are ways to communicate stakes otherwise and I am satisfied with depicting victims who aren't fully developed characters. The destruction of Alderaan in Star Wars is a little too restrained for a modern audience but all at once it gets the job done, and it would negatively impact the film to dedicate time to the planet just to blow up someone more resonant. Keep in mind how upset the fanbase was and still is when G2014 killed off Joe Brody, which in theory with how well beloved the character was, should actually have been an excellent choice to set some stakes in the film.

GKOTM had the highest stakes in the franchise, as LSD Jellyfish pointed out, and I think that is a huge contribution to that film's colossal failure. Creating a story of such planetary scale didn't resonate with audiences, and because the monsters are released intentionally and the events therefore seem easily preventable to audiences, nobody can really sit back and appreciate it a monster fight film; the higher stakes make the flaws of the human story seem overwhelming to most viewers and essentially bleed over the rest of the film, making it unwatchable instead of 'at least the monster stuff is good'. We'd have been objectively better off if they pulled back the stakes to just a personal grudge match like GvK instead of trying to indulge in worldwide destruction scenes that only made the plot seem worse.

I think a huge reason GvK succeeded is it's a very personal story among kaiju films. Godzilla and Kong hate each other, Godzilla hates Mechagodzilla... but what is really in jeopardy here? I didn't feel a sense of 'stakes' in that story. The world is honestly not really at stake in this movie; nothing is actually at risk that the audience cares about. I didn't feel like the potential success of Apex or the potential failure of the Hollow Earth project had much meaning, and most discourse would agree there, I think. You're on a weird ride that brings together the big monkey-lizard fight, and then they fight a robot, and that's all anyone really wants. They don't give a crap what Mechagodzilla's true purpose is as long as he gets the crap kicked out of him. If they had given him a greater purpose, it could have easily ruined the film in the same way as GKOTM.

The stakes in GKOTM wee a distraction that overwhelmed the film, the lack of stakes in GvK made it more fun and accessible to mainstream audiences.

[darthzilla99]

The stakes between human-driven stories and monster-driven stories are always going to be different by necessity.

I disagree firmly with the constant insistence in movie discourse that you need a major character death to create stakes. There are plenty of classic movies that succeed without going to that level, or where death is post-climax but not used to set stakes. Gojira does have Serizawa's tragic fate, but it doesn't use that as a way to tell us the stakes of the story. I think the idea death is a necessary component for a scale story is widely exaggerated. There are ways to communicate stakes otherwise and I am satisfied with depicting victims who aren't fully developed characters. The destruction of Alderaan in Star Wars is a little too restrained for a modern audience but all at once it gets the job done, and it would negatively impact the film to dedicate time to the planet just to blow up someone more resonant. Keep in mind how upset the fanbase was and still is when G2014 killed off Joe Brody, which in theory with how well beloved the character was, should actually have been an excellent choice to set some stakes in the film.

GKOTM had the highest stakes in the franchise, as LSD Jellyfish pointed out, and I think that is a huge contribution to that film's colossal failure. Creating a story of such planetary scale didn't resonate with audiences, and because the monsters are released intentionally and the events therefore seem easily preventable to audiences, nobody can really sit back and appreciate it a monster fight film; the higher stakes make the flaws of the human story seem overwhelming to most viewers and essentially bleed over the rest of the film, making it unwatchable instead of 'at least the monster stuff is good'. We'd have been objectively better off if they pulled back the stakes to just a personal grudge match like GvK instead of trying to indulge in worldwide destruction scenes that only made the plot seem worse.

I think a huge reason GvK succeeded is it's a very personal story among kaiju films. Godzilla and Kong hate each other, Godzilla hates Mechagodzilla... but what is really in jeopardy here? I didn't feel a sense of 'stakes' in that story. The world is honestly not really at stake in this movie; nothing is actually at risk that the audience cares about. I didn't feel like the potential success of Apex or the potential failure of the Hollow Earth project had much meaning, and most discourse would agree there, I think. You're on a weird ride that brings together the big monkey-lizard fight, and then they fight a robot, and that's all anyone really wants. They don't give a crap what Mechagodzilla's true purpose is as long as he gets the crap kicked out of him. If they had given him a greater purpose, it could have easily ruined the film in the same way as GKOTM.

The stakes in GKOTM wee a distraction that overwhelmed the film, the lack of stakes in GvK made it more fun and accessible to mainstream audiences.

A few things to point out,
1. Gojira showed plenty of people dying on screen, so it had lots of deaths to build stakes.
2. Only Godzilla fans and you tube nerd critics like Nolstalgia Critic complained about Brian Cranston's death (as well as Ford being a bland character). The vast majority of professional movie critics did not mind Cranston's death and Ford's acting. The general professional critic consensus for Godzilla 2014 was praise for the effects, cinematography, strong adequate acting, smart writing, and strong narrative. The crticisms were characterization was flat and Godzilla needed more screen time. You tube nerd critics are a small minority.
3. I wasn't suggesting world ending stakes. But I do think the stars need to feel danger and I think there should be some consequences at the end of the film. While maybe no character death is necessary, if Godzilla and Kong come out unscathed I do fear that critics and people will start complaining about plot armor.

[JVM]

A few things to point out,
1. Gojira showed plenty of people dying on screen, so it had lots of deaths to build stakes.
2. Only Godzilla fans and you tube nerd critics like Nolstalgia Critic complained about Brian Cranston's death (as well as Ford being a bland character). The vast majority of professional movie critics did not mind Cranston's death and Ford's acting. The general professional critic consensus for Godzilla 2014 was praise for the effects, cinematography, strong adequate acting, smart writing, and strong narrative. The crticisms were characterization was flat and Godzilla needed more screen time. You tube nerd critics are a small minority.
3. I wasn't suggesting world ending stakes. But I do think the stars need to feel danger and I think there should be some consequences at the end of the film. While maybe no character death is necessary, if Godzilla and Kong come out unscathed I do fear that critics and people will start complaining about plot armor.

#1. I assumed, particularly based on the example of Jurassic World Dominion, that you were separating death of characters the narrative cares about vs deaths of random civilians and extras. As I said:

There are ways to communicate stakes otherwise and I am satisfied with depicting victims who aren't fully developed characters.

With recent examples like Jurassic World Dominion the usual claims about needing a character death to set the stakes are more referring to killing off a major, significant character, which Gojira does not until the last act.

#2.

" Keep in mind how upset the fanbase was and still is when G2014 killed off Joe Brody, which in theory with how well beloved the character was, should actually have been an excellent choice to set some stakes in the film."

Only Godzilla fans and you tube nerd critics like Nolstalgia Critic complained about Brian Cranston's death

Your tone is as if you're trying to correct me, from the sound of it, but we seem to be in agreement. I was intentionally referring to fan criticism and made the distinction. That point was not about professional movie critics at all, it was intentionally referring to the fanbase, and no, I don't watch youtube critics myself, but I do read Toho Kingdom forum threads. I guess in your original post you were referring to movie critics but I had drifted there in the post.

#3. Yeah, I'm arguing against world-ending stakes because of my own realizations after LSD Jellyfish's post and not against your own stuff. I think audiences will be fine with plot armor on Godzilla and Kong because they are title characters though. You could get away with killing pretty much any other kaiju though. Behemoth is a good choice.

Feel a little like I hijacked your thread now! My bad. Just helped me work through my dissonance with the MV.

[Janjira-York]

you dont need super big stakes, g14 did well with just the city level destruction, it also helps that when it went people POV it felt incredibly anxiety and fear inducing just glimpses of that makes the stake feel so much higher than say whatever super hero movie with a planet on the line or something like that

[_JNavs_]

Could have a real good planetary threat, with a team on a spacecraft as the secondary story, homage the Showa stuff like Gamera with the set pieces.

The spacecraft B plot could have its own alien threat where the team needs to stop them from destroying Earth. Maybe lose half the team due to sacrifice and/or tragedy.

[shadowgigan]

Making us actually care about the characters would probably raise the stakes for the audience.

[_JNavs_]

Making us actually care about the characters would probably raise the stakes for the audience.

What would make you care about a character in one of these films? I'm curious bc, in 2014 we had the soldier-son of a man who lost his wife in a nuclear accident, who's trying to keep his family out of harms reach, while even saving people along the way, and then finally saving the city from nuclear destruction, not much in the way of introspective dialogue but I could relate to aspects of his character and his family so I personally cared.

In 2019 there was the daughter who was stuck between her (very common) divorced parents, she lost her only kid brother in the San Francisco incident, and she can't do anything but watch as her parents move further and further apart in ideologies before it's straight up world terrorism vs world defense, again not much in terms of impressive dialogue, but again I could relate to feeling split between two parents, as i feel many would, with one of the few connectors being Godzilla. Then she manages to bring them back together for her sake. Then there's the greatness that is Serizawa, which is more of an impressive side character everyone loves.

I could understand GvK, but even then we had Jia, the young deaf girl who was like the best character in the film. So I'm just curious what moment would entail genuine care from the audience that we haven't seen even momentarily? It seems to be a reoccurring complaint within the MV, but it does seem like we've seen bits and pieces overall, while still keeping within monster/action thriller movie territory.

[StardustGenius]

Stakes don't have to rise every movie. King Ghidorah pretty much was the highest stakes possible. You can get back to planetary level threats later, but these movies are kaiju movies with Hollywood budgets. As long as they aren't a pain to sit through, and are fun, that should be the emphasis.

They could always mix things up. Do a movie set in another time, something akin to Conan or the like but Godzilla and the other monsters in the background. The MV movies have crazy flexibility due to the worldbuilding.

[CyberZilla]

Stakes don't have to rise every movie. King Ghidorah pretty much was the highest stakes possible. You can get back to planetary level threats later, but these movies are kaiju movies with Hollywood budgets. As long as they aren't a pain to sit through, and are fun, that should be the emphasis.

They could always mix things up. Do a movie set in another time, something akin to Conan or the like but Godzilla and the other monsters in the background. The MV movies have crazy flexibility due to the worldbuilding.

I like the idea of a prehistoric MV movie, seeing what the Titans were doing back then. It would be hella expensive, but it could be really cool.

[JVM]

A prehistoric movie would not raise the stakes.

[StardustGenius]

A prehistoric movie would not raise the stakes.

Nah, a prehistoric movie won't raise the stakes. But I was arguing that movies don't always have to raise the stakes, and they should focus on being good or at least fun.

[Gojira18]

Stakes don't have to rise every movie. King Ghidorah pretty much was the highest stakes possible. You can get back to planetary level threats later, but these movies are kaiju movies with Hollywood budgets. As long as they aren't a pain to sit through, and are fun, that should be the emphasis.

They could always mix things up. Do a movie set in another time, something akin to Conan or the like but Godzilla and the other monsters in the background. The MV movies have crazy flexibility due to the worldbuilding.

That's what I've been saying. Give us prehistoric or even period pieces with the Titans in different eras in history! Be it that Godzilla BC film Dougherty was interested in, Mothra in ancient China, Rodan in ancient Mesoamerica, the possibilities are endless

[StardustGenius]

Godzilla sinking the Mongol Armada would be a pretty good visual.

[shadowgigan]

Making us actually care about the characters would probably raise the stakes for the audience.

What would make you care about a character in one of these films?

Sorry, I meant to respond to this and forgot. I guess I will kind of concede your point. I cannot articulate exactly what I want from this series moving forward in a coherent manner. I have tried and failed. I suppose I view the previous few entries as being somewhat cliche story-wise, with my favorite character (by far) being the deaf girl.

With that being said, I think you could raise the stakes, in a literal sense, by having the main characters be ordinary people, and then putting these people in harms way via kaiju. The stakes would be raised by the audience being legitimately wondering whether certain characters will live or die, etc.

[Legion1979]

Medium, with decent seasoning, maybe some potatoes and...

Oh, STAKES. Sorry.

[darthzilla99]

Medium, with decent seasoning, maybe some potatoes and...

Oh, STAKES. Sorry.

https://images.app.goo.gl/BiJ72YEw82iAQ92v8

[GojiSquid]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuDiQspYxP4