Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Post by LegendZilla »

^A tabloid blogger is more or less the 21st century version of a news reporter.

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Post by edgaguirus »

Good points by all. In an internet age, news and psuedonews can be hard to tell apart, and some content is entirely intended as psuedodocumentary, like the work Yuri was doing. But then she risks her life by pursuing events like a real reporter.
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Post by HeiseiGodzilla117 »

There's a specific Delgado design for the unmade 1994 Godzilla movie that I think Kaneko and his crew must have taken inspiration from for GMK. This is something that has fascinated me for years. But I've been unable to find anything confirming whether or not this is the case. Has anybody here seen anything to indicate that there is, in fact, a connection between the two?

Including the specific design below.

Image
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Post by king_ghidorah »

That’s the first I’ve ever heard about that unused design possibly having an influence on GMK. I really don’t see any similarities to be honest but stranger things have happened.

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Post by HeiseiGodzilla117 »

The spines, shape of the head and face (even down to the lack of pupils) especially look like GMK to me. But it's also the pose. There's an image somewhere that shows a large drawing of the GMK Godzilla in profile like this with a very similar stance demonstrating the somewhat theropod-like posture they wanted him to have. They couldn't figure out how to make that happen, so the suit kind of slouches and gives GMK Godzilla his famous pot-belly. It could totally be coincidence. But the resemblance is uncanny to me.
Spirit Ghidorah 2010 wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:54 pm Anno-san pleasures me more than Yamasaki-san.

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Post by Angilasman »

Man, when this movie came out we were so psyched because we were all high on the Gamera trilogy and everyone (to my recollection) was ecstatic when it was released... including me! Then a few years went by and people seemed to sour on it a bit because it doesn't hit the highs of the Gamera trilogy, which are just so perfectly realized films that the flaws if GMK stand out all the more in comparison. Some inconsistent effects (the compositing), the opaque nature of some of the plot elements in regards to the mystic stuff, and Ghidorah's multiple revivals (singled out as needlessly repetitive) were common complaints.

... then a few years went by and I forgot about all that stuff and watched it again and it really rocketed up my list of favorites again. It just so much more ambitious and fully realized then the other Godzilla films of its era. Not since Godzilla vs. Biollante and not until Shin Godzilla would you have a film in the franchise so clearly a cut above in quality.

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

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Angilasman wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 7:57 pm Man, when this movie came out we were so psyched because we were all high on the Gamera trilogy and everyone (to my recollection) was ecstatic when it was released... including me! Then a few years went by and people seemed to sour on it a bit because it doesn't hit the highs of the Gamera trilogy, which are just so perfectly realized films that the flaws if GMK stand out all the more in comparison. Some inconsistent effects (the compositing), the opaque nature of some of the plot elements in regards to the mystic stuff, and Ghidorah's multiple revivals (singled out as needlessly repetitive) were common complaints.

... then a few years went by and I forgot about all that stuff and watched it again and it really rocketed up my list of favorites again. It just so much more ambitious and fully realized then the other Godzilla films of its era. Not since Godzilla vs. Biollante and not until Shin Godzilla would you have a film in the franchise so clearly a cut above in quality.
I personally think it's better than the first two Gamera trilogy films, and on very even footing with 3. I think a big issue is that people tend to compare one film (GMK) to three films (Heisei Gamera Trilogy), and not separately. Of course it's going to feel like Gamera has a lot going on when you're comparing 4-6 hours to one.

If you need a reason, I find the narrative of Yuki uncovering the guardian narrative and the relationship with her father more compelling than the human story in Gamera 1+2. I think Kaneko succeeded with not only Yuki, but all the minor characters and background extras. So many memorable moments and people sprinkled throughout, in a way that is by no means distracting or ruins what is going on. Gamera 1 and 2 have characters and moments like that, but it's really GMK that perfects it.

And while the the monster action in Gamera 1+2 is excellent, and GMK suffers from awkward early 2000s Japanese compositing, I do think that GMK has a better variety of monster fights and some of it hits a bit harder. The main advantage that GMK has is Godzilla is the clear antagonist, and when Godzilla is stomping Baragon into the ground, there is a bit of sadness. Just because the action is more purposeful, and emotional, I feel a bit more when Mothra blocks Godzilla's beam to protect Ghidorah. Don't get me wrong, I love hero Gamera eradicating the Gyaos, but there just isn't that same connection for me. Beyond emotion there's just a lot more variety in designs and abilities between the four monsters of GMK and whichever individual Gamera film they're being compared to.

My big issue with comparing GMK to Gamera 3 is that it's unfair to GMK because Gamera 3 is a sequel. Part of what makes Gamera 3 work so well is that is is a sequel. It takes a lot from the two previous entries and flips it on its head. A lot of that has time to be developed on because its a sequel.
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

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HeiseiGodzilla117 wrote: Tue Sep 19, 2023 11:09 am The spines, shape of the head and face (even down to the lack of pupils) especially look like GMK to me. But it's also the pose. There's an image somewhere that shows a large drawing of the GMK Godzilla in profile like this with a very similar stance demonstrating the somewhat theropod-like posture they wanted him to have. They couldn't figure out how to make that happen, so the suit kind of slouches and gives GMK Godzilla his famous pot-belly. It could totally be coincidence. But the resemblance is uncanny to me.
It does resemble the maquette.

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Post by king_ghidorah »

LSD Jellyfish wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 9:59 pm
Angilasman wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 7:57 pm Man, when this movie came out we were so psyched because we were all high on the Gamera trilogy and everyone (to my recollection) was ecstatic when it was released... including me! Then a few years went by and people seemed to sour on it a bit because it doesn't hit the highs of the Gamera trilogy, which are just so perfectly realized films that the flaws if GMK stand out all the more in comparison. Some inconsistent effects (the compositing), the opaque nature of some of the plot elements in regards to the mystic stuff, and Ghidorah's multiple revivals (singled out as needlessly repetitive) were common complaints.

... then a few years went by and I forgot about all that stuff and watched it again and it really rocketed up my list of favorites again. It just so much more ambitious and fully realized then the other Godzilla films of its era. Not since Godzilla vs. Biollante and not until Shin Godzilla would you have a film in the franchise so clearly a cut above in quality.
I personally think it's better than the first two Gamera trilogy films, and on very even footing with 3. I think a big issue is that people tend to compare one film (GMK) to three films (Heisei Gamera Trilogy), and not separately. Of course it's going to feel like Gamera has a lot going on when you're comparing 4-6 hours to one.

If you need a reason, I find the narrative of Yuki uncovering the guardian narrative and the relationship with her father more compelling than the human story in Gamera 1+2. I think Kaneko succeeded with not only Yuki, but all the minor characters and background extras. So many memorable moments and people sprinkled throughout, in a way that is by no means distracting or ruins what is going on. Gamera 1 and 2 have characters and moments like that, but it's really GMK that perfects it.

And while the the monster action in Gamera 1+2 is excellent, and GMK suffers from awkward early 2000s Japanese compositing, I do think that GMK has a better variety of monster fights and some of it hits a bit harder. The main advantage that GMK has is Godzilla is the clear antagonist, and when Godzilla is stomping Baragon into the ground, there is a bit of sadness. Just because the action is more purposeful, and emotional, I feel a bit more when Mothra blocks Godzilla's beam to protect Ghidorah. Don't get me wrong, I love hero Gamera eradicating the Gyaos, but there just isn't that same connection for me. Beyond emotion there's just a lot more variety in designs and abilities between the four monsters of GMK and whichever individual Gamera film they're being compared to.

My big issue with comparing GMK to Gamera 3 is that it's unfair to GMK because Gamera 3 is a sequel. Part of what makes Gamera 3 work so well is that is is a sequel. It takes a lot from the two previous entries and flips it on its head. A lot of that has time to be developed on because its a sequel.

I largely agree with you BUT…

1. I still think GOTU and G2 are just more polished and fully realized films overall.

2. And with that, two things keep me from loving this film more and they’re both admittedly superficial. First, the film has a shit transfer on all home video and even the theatrical release. It looks “soft”. And secondly, the effects just don’t pass muster. Especially in the second half of the film.

Now all that being said, it’s in my top 10. I’ve had to warm to it over the years as the hype for it initially never matched how I personally felt about it. But now, with perspective, I can dig it for what it is and really appreciate what it was aiming for. Flawed as it is when it comes to execution. With more time and budget it could have arguably been the best G film since the original.

Lastly, I’m in the camp that Kg and Mothra are more interesting visually and combat wise over Anguirus and Varan…I would have loved to see them return but I think a golden dragon and giant moth fit the fantasy theme a bit more.

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Post by edgaguirus »

What's your opinion of Baragon's inclusion? He doesn't seem fantasy, but I loved seeing him again.
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

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I think Baragon's inclusion was a great one, and a smart decision to keep it. Baragon's design, while reptilian, resembles a sort of stone-earth creature/ It's similar to a Chinese Lion Dog, with it's more portly body and mammalian features. Look at Baragon's dog-like face.

I think the balance of the three monsters works well. We have the quadrupedal Baragon, who serves as a great first monster for Godzilla to curbstomp. Mothra is a graceful insect, and Ghidorah, when finally powered up is a majestic dragon that looks like a living legend. Angurius and Varan would have been cool to see, but I actually think the film used Mothra and KG well, given the circumstances they were forced into the narrative. Their re-designs are very effective too.
Spirit Ghidorah 2010 wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:54 pm Anno-san pleasures me more than Yamasaki-san.

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Post by Gojira-Fan »

I watched this with my gf this past weekend.

This is one of the best Godzilla movies imo. The fantasy direction Kaneko chose is a nice change of pace. The metaphor for Japan forgetting its imperial atrocities is poignant. The special effects are better than most of the Millennium movies (my GF even commented on how good they are). It is also great to see Baragon back and looking better than ever! The Godzilla vs. Baragon fight was great. You definitely feel a sense of empathy seeing him fight all alone against one of the most brutal incarnations of Godzilla ever.
LSD Jellyfish wrote: Mon Oct 23, 2023 11:08 pm I think Baragon's inclusion was a great one, and a smart decision to keep it. Baragon's design, while reptilian, resembles a sort of stone-earth creature/ It's similar to a Chinese Lion Dog, with it's more portly body and mammalian features. Look at Baragon's dog-like face.

I think the balance of the three monsters works well. We have the quadrupedal Baragon, who serves as a great first monster for Godzilla to curbstomp. Mothra is a graceful insect, and Ghidorah, when finally powered up is a majestic dragon that looks like a living legend. Angurius and Varan would have been cool to see, but I actually think the film used Mothra and KG well, given the circumstances they were forced into the narrative. Their re-designs are very effective too.
I think using Mothra and Ghidorah works better with fantasy vibe than Varan and Anguirus would. The only downside is not being able to see Varan again after such a long period of time. I feel like Anguirus definitely gets enough appearances out of the less famous Toho monsters, but Varan is so underutilized and it's a shame. He's a pretty unique monster.

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Post by edgaguirus »

But when your only major role is one obscure film, the future doesn't look good.
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

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I've said it before and I'll say it again and I'll keep on saying it until it finally sticks: if we, the fans, had gotten this film exactly the way that it was originally supposed to have been done, Anguirus would've returned sooner instead of later and Varan would've had a chance to make it into the big leagues (in fact, IMHO, he would've done it, too).

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

Post by HedorahIsBestGirl »

Okay, can we be real for a second?

Varan is a big lizard with flying squirrel membranes. He was never going to achieve the recognition of a lepidoptera deity with rainbow wings or a three-headed golden dragon. Mothra and Ghidorah are iconic; Varan and Anguirus are mid. I agree with the consensus that it would've been cool to see Varan in this movie but I can also understand why Toho shut that idea down. Varan already gets more love and recognition than he's due, in my opinion. As to Anguirus, he's a good spiky boy but he's not really "guardian monster" material. I'm glad Baragon got a chance to shine and I think Mothra fits the guardian role better.

I'd love to visit the alternate reality where GAV got made but, realistically, I don't think it would've somehow been a much better movie and I'm happy with what we got.
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

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Angilasman wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 7:57 pm Not since Godzilla vs. Biollante and not until Shin Godzilla would you have a film in the franchise so clearly a cut above in quality.
If you ask me, GMK is easily better than both. But I'd get eaten alive for that take, I'm sure.
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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

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mikelcho wrote: Tue Oct 24, 2023 6:30 pm I've said it before and I'll say it again and I'll keep on saying it until it finally sticks: if we, the fans, had gotten this film exactly the way that it was originally supposed to have been done, Anguirus would've returned sooner instead of later and Varan would've had a chance to make it into the big leagues (in fact, IMHO, he would've done it, too).
Amazing how it's been 22 years and fans are still unable to get over this.

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

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Legion1979 wrote: Wed Oct 25, 2023 2:57 am
mikelcho wrote: Tue Oct 24, 2023 6:30 pm I've said it before and I'll say it again and I'll keep on saying it until it finally sticks: if we, the fans, had gotten this film exactly the way that it was originally supposed to have been done, Anguirus would've returned sooner instead of later and Varan would've had a chance to make it into the big leagues (in fact, IMHO, he would've done it, too).
Amazing how it's been 22 years and fans are still unable to get over this.
Yep. It’s right up there with Bagan and I just want it all to stop and go away 😭😭😭

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

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Okay, I give up, you win. I won't mention it again.

Oh, and btw, we finally did get Bagan after all, remember?

Twenty-two years, huh? It seems so long ago.

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Re: Talkback: GMK - Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah (2001)

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Spuro wrote: Tue Oct 24, 2023 9:05 pm
Angilasman wrote: Mon Oct 16, 2023 7:57 pm Not since Godzilla vs. Biollante and not until Shin Godzilla would you have a film in the franchise so clearly a cut above in quality.
If you ask me, GMK is easily better than both. But I'd get eaten alive for that take, I'm sure.
GMK is easily better than Biollante. The flaws in GvB are far more numerous and detrimental than those in GMK. I'll take it over Shin, too, but I think that's more arguable. All three make my top ten at this point but, as much as I've warmed up to it in the last 5 years, GvB just barely makes #10.
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