One Ghidorah, Two Ghidorah?

For the discussion of Toho produced and distributed films or shows released before 1980.
Post Reply
User avatar
SG-17
Interpol Agent
Posts: 599
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:40 pm

One Ghidorah, Two Ghidorah?

Post by SG-17 »

So for the first time recently I've heard that there were apparently two distinct Ghidorahs in the Showa series.

One being the one from G3HM, IAM, and DAM, and the other being from GvGigan and Zone Fighter. For decades I assumed that they were all the same kaiju since DAM is supposed to be the end of the Showa timeline, being set in 1999, so the appearances of Ghidorah after DAM came out was just set before that in the timeline. The only sources I've seen for the Two Ghidorah Theory is the Super Encyclopedia and the Dictionary, do we actually know from the writers/directors/Toho themselves that there were supposed to be two different Ghidorahs in the Showa films?

Is this all retroactive theorycrafting designed to make sense out of what was an intentionally very loose canon?

User avatar
HedorahIsBestGirl
JXSDF Technician
Posts: 1166
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:17 am

Re: One Ghidorah, Two Ghidorah?

Post by HedorahIsBestGirl »

To be blunt, I don't think the filmmakers really gave a damn about continuity when they made these movies. They used the kaiju that were available to them, regardless of their circumstances in prior films. It's the same reason Anguirus shows up alive and well in DAM despite very clearly dying and getting barbequed in GRA. As far as I've seen, no official source has ever said that's another Anguirus (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). Main Showa Godzilla being different than '54 Godzilla is the only exception in the Showa series.

I think the various "official" encyclopedias put in stuff like that to appease fans who want closer continuity. Personally, I've never seen a reason to make a distinction between the O.G. Ghidorah and the 70s Ghidorah, especially since DAM is a chronological conclusion to the Showa era.
Last edited by HedorahIsBestGirl on Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
:Hedorah:
The sea has cobalt, it's full of mercury. Too many fumes in our oxygen!
All the smog now is choking you and me. Good Lord, where is it gonna end?
Got to get it back, someday. Got to get it back, and soon now.
For tomorrow maybe you and me...
We're movin', we're movin', movin' to the Moon now!
It's up to us to make a choice.
We know what it's worth to save the Earth!

:Hedorah:

StardustGenius
Interpol Agent
Posts: 406
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2022 5:24 am

Re: One Ghidorah, Two Ghidorah?

Post by StardustGenius »

When the movies were made, there was a loose continuity in between them. Stuff retroactively gets added later on, or ignored. Eh, don't think about it too hard.

On the other hand, slap those in the face that pick on you for thinking about it too hard. I'll even join you in the slapping!

User avatar
canofhumdingers
Gotengo Officer
Posts: 1573
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:34 pm

Re: One Ghidorah, Two Ghidorah?

Post by canofhumdingers »

Ah, I was thinking this might be about the suit(s) and not continuity. I agree with the above. Loose continuity and DAM intended to be the end of the timeline makes for one Ghidorah.

Regarding the suit itself, I believe there was only one. My understanding is that they built the suit for GTTHM, then repaired it and lengthened the necks for MZ. Then they did a major refurb for DAM including a full repaint and they either reinforced the wings or replaced them altogether. Then it was just pulled out of storage for Gigan (and maybe they built a new flying model?).

But all of that is based on my memories, mostly of what other people have said. So some of that might not be remotely accurate.

Legion1979
Sazer
Posts: 13670
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:45 pm

Re: One Ghidorah, Two Ghidorah?

Post by Legion1979 »

Ghidorah was always the same suit, just with major modifications in 1968 and 1972. The wings were stripped down to their support "skeletons" after MZ so the suit could be stored away. When they rebuilt the wings for DAM they added more bulk to where they meet his body. I believe the heads in Gigan were completely new, or at least extensively modified.

Japanese books make distinctions when there are later generations of Showa monsters, which they absolutely do for Angilas. But they don't do that for Ghidorah. There is only one Showa King Ghidorah.

User avatar
GoldenGoat2000
Yojimbo
Posts: 27
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2022 3:51 pm

Re: One Ghidorah, Two Ghidorah?

Post by GoldenGoat2000 »

I think it has to do with the timeline being goofy. If DAM is the last, I always though every Ghidorah appearance afterwards took place before DAM.

User avatar
SG-17
Interpol Agent
Posts: 599
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:40 pm

Re: One Ghidorah, Two Ghidorah?

Post by SG-17 »

canofhumdingers wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:12 am Then it was just pulled out of storage for Gigan (and maybe they built a new flying model?).
I believe that all of the flying footage in Gigan was stock footage.

User avatar
canofhumdingers
Gotengo Officer
Posts: 1573
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:34 pm

Re: One Ghidorah, Two Ghidorah?

Post by canofhumdingers »

Image

It definitely wasn’t all stock.

Legion1979
Sazer
Posts: 13670
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:45 pm

Re: One Ghidorah, Two Ghidorah?

Post by Legion1979 »

SG-17 wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:41 am
canofhumdingers wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:12 am Then it was just pulled out of storage for Gigan (and maybe they built a new flying model?).
I believe that all of the flying footage in Gigan was stock footage.
Even saying that there is no flying footage of the suit would be wrong, as there are a couple of shots of the full size Ghidorah suit flying behind Gigan during the Tojyo attack and there's a shot at the end of the movie of Ghidorah taking off that uses the suit.

User avatar
LSD Jellyfish
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 11359
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:57 pm

Re: One Ghidorah, Two Ghidorah?

Post by LSD Jellyfish »

There's been a few Japanese Magazines and encylcopedias which mention there being "two King Ghidorahs" during the Showa Era.

This is one of them:
https://www.tohokingdom.com/books/defin ... sha16.html


The main issue is that this is a definitive "retcon", with zero hard evidence in Godzilla vs. Gigan or Zone Fighter. As in, nothing is directly stated that this is the same, or different King Ghidorah. However, there's a few things that do support this cirumstantially: The Ghidorah in Gigan and ZF is slimmer and less mobile. It's supposedly weaker as well.

But ultimately, using the same logic, you might as well say,"There's 15 different Godzillas" because each of the Showa Godzillas have different appearances, and in many cases abilities and personalities,".

As others have mentioned, it's most likely a recent change, to justify KG losing and retreating so easily in those entries. Also, bear in mind that this information is very recent. For the past 10 years, Toho (and Legendary) have really built King Ghidorah up as Godzilla's archenemy, which wasn't always so clear, or at least more ambigious.

If you choose to believe there's two Ghidorahs then you're well in your right to. Likewise, if you think there's only one King Ghidorah, then you're also well in your right to. It really doesn't matter, and only becomes an issue when you take the loose continuity of the Showa Series very seriously, which is something I'd advise against doing.
Rodan95 wrote:The Shobijin are sat on by a fatass explorer and killed. Mothra is pissed and destroys Japan.

edgaguirus
Keizer
Posts: 7533
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:25 pm

Re: One Ghidorah, Two Ghidorah?

Post by edgaguirus »

It's like how the Baragon in DAM is said to be a second member of the species. You can see a kaiju killed, but then Toho brings it out of storage later to avoid creating new suits. Depending on your opinion, it could well be another Ghidorah or the original.
Goodnight, frau Blucher........Neighhhhhh

My boys call it the Black Lagoon. A paradise. Only, they say, no one has ever come back to prove it.

User avatar
godjacob
Futurian
Posts: 3037
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:16 am

Re: One Ghidorah, Two Ghidorah?

Post by godjacob »

Toho has never put continuity over story before, I doubt they very much cared of contradictions when it came to Ghidorah. They needed a villain and Ghidorah was a popular one/had a durable suit so they decided to recycle it.

Personally I think we have one Ghidorah. Zone Fighter is the only true F up in the timeline, but with GVG since that movie is set prior to DAM in the Showa timeline you can easily just wrestle with that. Personally I kinda wish we did get a second Ghidorah after GTTHM because every other appearance it had suffered diminishing returns.

User avatar
Voyager
Xilien Halfling
Posts: 7225
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:34 pm
Location: On a boat

Re: One Ghidorah, Two Ghidorah?

Post by Voyager »

godjacob wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:12 pm Toho has never put continuity over story before, I doubt they very much cared of contradictions when it came to Ghidorah. They needed a villain and Ghidorah was a popular one/had a durable suit so they decided to recycle it.

Personally I think we have one Ghidorah. Zone Fighter is the only true F up in the timeline, but with GVG since that movie is set prior to DAM in the Showa timeline you can easily just wrestle with that. Personally I kinda wish we did get a second Ghidorah after GTTHM because every other appearance it had suffered diminishing returns.
What makes ZF an f up? It’s set in 1973.
I’m just a Hunka Hunka Burning Love, ahhh!

When things go wrong, don’t go with them.

User avatar
godjacob
Futurian
Posts: 3037
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:16 am

Re: One Ghidorah, Two Ghidorah?

Post by godjacob »

Voyager wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:38 pm
godjacob wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:12 pm Toho has never put continuity over story before, I doubt they very much cared of contradictions when it came to Ghidorah. They needed a villain and Ghidorah was a popular one/had a durable suit so they decided to recycle it.

Personally I think we have one Ghidorah. Zone Fighter is the only true F up in the timeline, but with GVG since that movie is set prior to DAM in the Showa timeline you can easily just wrestle with that. Personally I kinda wish we did get a second Ghidorah after GTTHM because every other appearance it had suffered diminishing returns.
What makes ZF an f up? It’s set in 1973.
Ah my mistake. Though it was set later. Carry on.

Post Reply