The old kotm nuke debate

[miguelnuva]

https://twitter.com/TiltAndGo/status/15 ... VucLw&s=19

I thought this was an intreasting take on the scene to add more discussion.

[Gojira1604]

https://twitter.com/TiltAndGo/status/15 ... VucLw&s=19

I thought this was an intreasting take on the scene to add more discussion.

I saw that too. I'll just agree with everything they said so I can personally enjoy that part of the movie more.

[Jetty_Jags]

So I'm one of the guys who was particularly soured by KotM's thematic resonance (or lack there of) and have been quite vocal about it. While I was most frustrated by the film's haphazard use of the oxygen destroyer, I was not keen on the film's nuclear message either. That being said, I do like some of the points this individual brings up, even though it doesn't really change my overall opinion. I particularly like the connection drawn between the orca and the oxygen destroyer (and highlight of the reoccurring Alfred Nobel effect scene throughout history). I also like how the individual points out the tone of the sacrificial scenes, it is somber, it is remorseful, and at the very least the loss of Serizawa can be seen as a consequence of some kind for the supporting protagonists.

However, there still are many moments in the film that are far too sloppy with its thematic subtext for me to fully accept this argument, I'd go into further detail but I feel like a broken record so I'll just leave it at that.

[king_ghidorah]

Totally agree with everything the author of that tweet stated. Glad we finally have a nuanced, articulate rebuttal to the old guard’s criticism of how this was handled.

[Spuro]

I don’t really care about the KotM debate, but several years onward I still don’t understand why GvKG gets a pass for doing the exact same thing.

[JAGzilla]

I don’t really care about the KotM debate, but several years onward I still don’t understand why GvKG gets a pass for doing the exact same thing.

...what? GvKG's nuke power up plan gets a pass because it literally blew up in Shindo's face. Yes, Godzilla saved Japan from Ghidorah, but then he immediately became a threat himself. The protagonists' dangerous choice brings them real and severe consequences, unambiguously and for a big chunk of the movie's runtime.

In KOTM, nothing negative happens. The good guys win and go home. Yes, Boston is a clicking radioactive wasteland, but the movie doesn't dwell on that. Godzilla's nuclear pulses are treated as nothing but a laser show.

The two movies take the same plan and portray it in completely opposite lights.

[king_ghidorah]

A great man dies after being forced to detonate a weapon he’s presumably hated his whole life to save an avatar of nature that he’s more or less worshiped for years. He’s forced to do this because people interferes with the natural balance of things and it’s the only way to set things right.

It’s thematically rich AND it’s represents the other side of the coin when it comes to nuclear weapons. It depicts the west’s reluctance to use them as a necessary evil to ward off larger, more existential threats.

Honestly, it’s starting to annoy me when people clutch their pearls with this stuff three years later.

[shadowgigan]

Im not sure the film even has a nuclear message. It seems more like a convenient plot device to revive Godzilla in my opinion. And shows Serizawa’s courage and love for humanity even in the face of what he could perceive as disappointments. And, of course, it shows his reverence for Godzilla.

[LSD Jellyfish]

While it’s an interesting and valid take, and one I don’t necessarily disagree with, I just don’t think the writers were considering any of this when writing it. A lot of that has to do with how fanservicey and bloated KOTM is. It always felt like Serizawa was called Serizawa just as a namedrop, not anything more substantial. Even if this was the intention with KOTM 1954 took time to reflect and contemplate on this, in a somber and serious manner, one in a style that KOTM does. 54 has those quiet contemplative moments.

And sure yes, the original Godzilla isn’t solely about nuclear weapons, but it’s a big part of it. Serizawa is a horribly scarred war veteran, and although it’s less overt, 54 has a rather large anti-war sentiment. People online have also discussed how 54 is also inspired by the Tokyo Firebombings, which often gets overlooked.
It is reductive to miss that point, and for it to be overshadowed, but it doesn’t suddenly mean that the nuclear proliferation is a major element. It’s why the child-choir is such an important moment. The Twitter post also ignores the fact that Godzilla was based on the Lucky Dragon 9 incident and nuclear testing in the Pacific and that we have concept art in which Godzilla resembles more of a mushroom cloud/keloid scarred monstrosity. . It’s possible for a film, and film series, to tackle multiple elements, while remaining relatively consistent.


There’s a concept in Posthuman and Enviornmental criticism, known as the “Anthropocene”, or age of humans (and not in a good way). One of the theorized starting points for this, for when we entered this age was the birth of the atomic bomb. It’s not that the atomic bomb is the only tool of the Anthropocene, but rather it is the beginning. If 1954 is the start, and nuclear bombs are the issue, then we see that idea continually retool and rework itself; we go from nuclear weapons and testing, to climate change and sacrifice zones (Rodan), to postwar anxieties of new wars and invaders, to biological expirementation (Biollante), economic imperialism (Ghidorah), and so on and so forth.

Im not sure the film even has a nuclear message. It seems more like a convenient plot device to revive Godzilla in my opinion. And shows Serizawa’s courage and love for humanity even in the face of what he could perceive as disappointments. And, of course, it shows his reverence for Godzilla.

I’m leaning heavily towards this more than anything else.

Despite all this, next time I watch KOTM, I’ll keep all this in mind and try to give it an honest chance.

Added in 4 minutes 59 seconds:

In KOTM, nothing negative happens. The good guys win and go home. Yes, Boston is a clicking radioactive wasteland, but the movie doesn't dwell on that. Godzilla's nuclear pulses are treated as nothing but a laser show.

Yes, and it was a missed opportunity for neither the film, nor it’s sequel, Godzilla vs Kong to address it. I might agree with this, if not for the fact the film never makes it seem like they were backed into a desperate corner to do this, and that the consequences would be dire. What if Godzilla was more villainous in Godzilla vs Kong because of this?

I read the graphic novel, Godzilla Dominion yesterday, and despite its faults, it sort of addresses this, and makes Godzilla angry at human beings where they shouldn’t be, and using horrible technology on nature.

[king_ghidorah]

Is Dominion worth reading?

[LSD Jellyfish]

Is Dominion worth reading?

Yes, it’s got a few fun moments and fights and expands on some things from KOTM. It doesn’t affect my opinions of KOTM or Godzilla vs Kong as individual films, but it does add some things that make the gap between the two films more palpable. It also addresses some of my criticisms with KOTM.

[shadowgigan]

There are also no consequences following the use of the OD.

[LSD Jellyfish]

There are also no consequences following the use of the OD.

Godzilla is incapacitated, and we see some fish die, but yeah we never really get more than that.

[Monke]

There are also no consequences following the use of the OD.

Godzilla is incapacitated, and we see some fish die, but yeah we never really get more than that.

We kinda get an offhand consequence on the post credit scene with the fisherman and Ghidorah head. One of them mentions that everything is dead. But I’d consider that glossing over

[Jetty_Jags]

There are also no consequences following the use of the OD.

That’s true, but the films climax is dependent on the moral dilemma that is discussed quite a bit throughout the film. The use of the nuke has neither build up nor consequence which makes is why I find it thematically underwhelming.

[Spuro]

I don’t really care about the KotM debate, but several years onward I still don’t understand why GvKG gets a pass for doing the exact same thing.

...what? GvKG's nuke power up plan gets a pass because it literally blew up in Shindo's face. Yes, Godzilla saved Japan from Ghidorah, but then he immediately became a threat himself. The protagonists' dangerous choice brings them real and severe consequences, unambiguously and for a big chunk of the movie's runtime.

In KOTM, nothing negative happens. The good guys win and go home. Yes, Boston is a clicking radioactive wasteland, but the movie doesn't dwell on that. Godzilla's nuclear pulses are treated as nothing but a laser show.

The two movies take the same plan and portray it in completely opposite lights.

Shindo's plan is what saves the day and causes the defeat of the main antagonists. After that it's just a matter of directing Godzilla to the ocean, the same as any other Heisei Godzilla movie. No way he wasn't more of a threat than the Futurians and Ghidorah.

And there's no way nothing negative happened as a result of KotM's nuke: Not only does Serizawa die, convincing his son to join Apex in a quest for revenge with Mechagodzilla, but Godzilla himself starts to rampage around the world exactly the same as his Heisei self did, even taking out an entire military fleet in the process and destroying god knows how many lives. Hong Kong never got evacuated either, unlike Boston, and it was completely leveled by the end of the film's runtime.

It's really not any different.

[JAGzilla]

I'm just looking at the context of the two movies in question, not the larger series. In GvKG, Godzilla becomes the new threat and makes for Tokyo. It's implied that he's going to destroy Japan as effectively as the Futurians would have, until Emi gets rid of him. What happens in later movies is irrelevant because the filmmakers hadn't planned any of that out yet.

In KOTM, nothing negative comes of the nukes. Serizawa's death was ultimately caused by the Oxygen Destroyer, when you get right down to it.

[miguelnuva]

Americans see Godzilla as a hero where Japan sees him as a punishment is why the nuke scenes are related so differently.

What I want to talk about is someone mentioned kotm and OD having no ill will and I'd argue the OD was actually worse in kotm than Gojira.

In Gojira we are shown and told how bad the OD could be but with Serisawa dead only Gojira is shown to die on screen.

In kotm not only does Godzilla "die" but fish ar shown dead and after the film we here fish are still hard to catch.

I think we as an audience feel the OD had a bigger effect thag what is show because Toho did such a good job with that stroy in 54.

We don't see the horror of using the OD on Godzilla honestly until the events kf Destroyah.

[king_ghidorah]

I can’t get behind the “nothing of consequence” happens because of the O2 destroyer.

Serizawa has to die to correct the mistake of using it….that’s not even a subtle thing. He becomes a sacrificial lamb to atone for humanities idiocy I’m not trusting nature/Godzilla.

[darthzilla99]

I'm just looking at the context of the two movies in question, not the larger series. In GvKG, Godzilla becomes the new threat and makes for Tokyo. It's implied that he's going to destroy Japan as effectively as the Futurians would have, until Emi gets rid of him. What happens in later movies is irrelevant because the filmmakers hadn't planned any of that out yet.

In KOTM, nothing negative comes of the nukes. Serizawa's death was ultimately caused by the Oxygen Destroyer, when you get right down to it.

As far as the nuke in KOTM, there were some consequences. Godzilla was going to die from the nuke ("He's going to explode like an Atom bomb") if it weren't for Mothra's scales allowing him to unleash his energy in a faster more controlled manner. So not only did Serizawa had die, Mothra had to die as well. Plus the stakes were Godzilla could potentially die, which would still doom mankind to Ghidorah.

The nuke is definitely portrayed as a double edged sword and the movie is not subtle about it either.
Even at the beginning of the film, Serizawa says with disdain in his voice "it was our Atomic tests that awoke Godzilla".