The cultural implications of Godzilla vs Kongs Tropes

[TheLastGezora]

I think the more insensitive Native topic to discuss from GVK isn't Jia's character but the fact that an entire population of indigenous peoples that was given a pretty substantial spotlight in a previous film is unceremoniously fridged off-screen for no real apparent reason other than to get Kong off of Skull Island.

I can agree with this take.

I think any story put out for mass consumption merits some measure of analysis in terms of the themes and conventions it presents. Nobody's condemning the work, just discussing its place in a broader cultural landscape.

I don't disagree that media deserves analysis but I think there's a difference between analyzing the themes and ideas present in the movie and attempting to root out "problematic content", even where it doesn't necessarily exist, to complain. Saying "I think we can do better" strikes me as being a condemnation, aside from being incredibly smug, and I'd say the base of this argument is built on bad faith.

And I think - ironically - that you're reading thing into this analysis (perhaps more in tone than in content?) that isn't there.

You might be right Maybe I'll take a closer look at it later on.

[LSD Jellyfish]

@LastGezora, you're absolutely right. Kong Skull Island does have a lot of "monster-human sadism".

Continuing:

I think the dig at the conspiracy angle is why it's important to listen to the discussion rather than to just read it. Christina Tucker only briefly brings up Bernie being a conspiracy theorist, and her point isn't that he's a bad trope because he's a conspiracy theorist but rather that she'd prefer more direct focus on Godzilla and Kong. One thing that's interesting about the conversation is that, from a different approach, it reaches the same conclusion, that a lot of "fanboys" have of the MV. There's always been a vocal community of people who do not care about the human characters in a Godzilla film, usually recycling things like,"there's never been good characters in a Godzilla film" that annoy a lot of people. This, the argument Tucker is making, is similar to that argument, but saying that the tropic human characters actively harm what otherwise is a pretty excellent monster mash. The other speaker, Chaw, actively refutes the notion that Godzilla films can't have good characters and heart, by citing Destroy All Monsters and Shin Godzilla. The point isn't exclusively,"this movie is problematic", but rather that the film contains too much talking that doesn't justify its existence. It had a chance to do something more provocative but drops the ball.

[Spuro]

…the MV films lack the sadism that other modern monster movies have. Sure, Kong squishes the lady, and MG kills it’s creator, but people aren’t torn apart horrifically like they are in Jurassic World.

Well, most of the Monsterverse movies. Skull Island really overindulged in sadism and shock value. I still can’t believe that was PG-13.

Edit: Damn, someone beat me to it. I really should learn to read the entire thread before responding. Sorry guys.

[king_ghidorah]

Good characters and DAM should not go in the same sentence.

[LSD Jellyfish]

Good characters and DAM should not go in the same sentence.

Key word being,”heart”. DAM is mostly destruction centric, but has a core between Kyoko and Captain of the Sy-3. It adds a lot of reflection and gravity to everything despite the destruction.

I’ll re-iterate though: their point wasn’t that Godzilla vs Kong had bad characters in comparison to other Godzilla films; it was in that in comparison to the congested plot and elements of the film, actual time spent on humans getting killed off/affected is relatively minor. DAM suffers from a lot of the same problems, but really gives time for reflection, and isn’t so overly confused.

I feel like this’ll piss some people off (so be it), but I can say from the bottom of my heart, ignoring nostalgia, that yeah, DAM has better/equal, characters/plotting to Godzilla vs Kong. Sure, sure, Godzilla vs Kong had more characters, but DAM does a far better job at portraying the struggle and resilience of humanity in the face of an insurmountable force.

This is all getting rather circular, so to state my final piece:
I’m annoyed that we live in a world where any sort of of criticism of film in a social context is instantly targeted for particular social cues/issues. To me; the commentators were explaining that they felt that the human characters were rather tropic, and didn’t justify the amount of time, and overly busy explanations and plot given to them. What might be associated with commentary on race, was only a very very small part of the entire analysis, and the fact that everyone (of both sides) decided to solely zoom in on that says more about where we are in terms of media criticism than anything else.

I didn’t entirely agree with Chaw, but I found value in what he said, because he had a perspective that was different than mine. This isn’t to say that I just agreed with everything he said, but rather I think that the speakers offered something in their criticism of the film. Film critiques and analysis should never be to support your own confirmation bias, but to offer you an insight that you didn’t have prior.

[darthzilla99]

Good characters and DAM should not go in the same sentence.

Key word being,”heart”. DAM is mostly destruction centric, but has a core between Kyoko and Captain of the Sy-3. It adds a lot of reflection and gravity to everything despite the destruction.

I’ll re-iterate though: their point wasn’t that Godzilla vs Kong had bad characters in comparison to other Godzilla films; it was in that in comparison to the congested plot and elements of the film, actual time spent on humans getting killed off/affected is relatively minor. DAM suffers from a lot of the same problems, but really gives time for reflection, and isn’t so overly confused.

I feel like this’ll piss some people off (so be it), but I can say from the bottom of my heart, ignoring nostalgia, that yeah, DAM has better/equal, characters/plotting to Godzilla vs Kong. Sure, sure, Godzilla vs Kong had more characters, but DAM does a far better job at portraying the struggle and resilience of humanity in the face of an insurmountable force.

This is all getting rather circular, so to state my final piece:
I’m annoyed that we live in a world where any sort of of criticism of film in a social context is instantly targeted for particular social cues/issues. To me; the commentators were explaining that they felt that the human characters were rather tropic, and didn’t justify the amount of time, and overly busy explanations and plot given to them. What might be associated with commentary on race, was only a very very small part of the entire analysis, and the fact that everyone (of both sides) decided to solely zoom in on that says more about where we are in terms of media criticism than anything else.

I didn’t entirely agree with Chaw, but I found value in what he said, because he had a perspective that was different than mine. This isn’t to say that I just agreed with everything he said, but rather I think that the speakers offered something in their criticism of the film. Film critiques and analysis should never be to support your own confirmation bias, but to offer you an insight that you didn’t have prior.

I think most would agree DAM is a better overall made film than GvK. Even the stakes are higher in DAM. As far as the movie shows, we don't know if any of the other titans are alive and there's no evidence that Mechagodzilla would regenerate back to Ghidorah. If Mechagodzilla wins, you essentially just have another wild Titan on the loose causing havoc. In DAM, humanity being enslaved is at Stake. Also humanity influences the plot of DAM more than in GvK.

[eabaker]

I feel like this’ll piss some people off (so be it), but I can say from the bottom of my heart, ignoring nostalgia, that yeah, DAM has better/equal, characters/plotting to Godzilla vs Kong. Sure, sure, Godzilla vs Kong had more characters, but DAM does a far better job at portraying the struggle and resilience of humanity in the face of an insurmountable force.

At least on the Godzilla/Mechagodzilla side of the story, I think this is very true - though I could see a case being made for the strength of the characterizations with the more Kong-focused characters.

The difference between DAM and GvsK in this respect partly comes down to storytelling economy. GvsK spends a lot of time with Madison, Bernie and Josh, but it's mostly time that's about dropping exposition or rushing them from point to point, without actually making anything meaningful or resonant out of their relationships/actions/reactions.

DAM may not go into tremendous depth with its characters (in fact, I consider it a strange one to have brought up as an example of strong characterization, because that is not its reputation among most fans/scholars), but it peppers its runtime with memorable and impactful moments relating to the characters, while always keeping a clear focus on moving its narrative forward.

[GodzillaFan1990's]

I will say it’s really weird for me to see people dismiss the whole movie because of Bernie and the real life connection to conspiracy theorists. That’s pretty indicative of the times….it’s shallow and reeks of tribalism…

I mean when you have jokes about guys making hand sanitizer from their gardens referencing the COVID pandemic and showering in bleach. It comes off as total cringe. Like come on, come up with better jokes and humor, it's like that's the best they could come up with desperately trying to copy the MCU's humor but failing.

He along with Josh were the worst human characters in the story IMO coming off as annoying and not funny at all.

[king_ghidorah]

Up to the individual I guess. I enjoy him a lot and think he’s one of my favorite parts of the human casts of these films

[LSD Jellyfish]

Up to the individual I guess. I enjoy him a lot and think he’s one of my favorite parts of the human casts of these films

Yeah I didn’t really have an issue with Bernie, especially in comparison to some of the other characters in KOTM.

I’m not sure if anyone has brought this up, but it’s really fascinating comparing Bernie to Ford Senior from G2014. Both are pretty reflective of their films respective tone in their mannerisms, actions and demeanor.

[Chris55]

I will say it’s really weird for me to see people dismiss the whole movie because of Bernie and the real life connection to conspiracy theorists. That’s pretty indicative of the times….it’s shallow and reeks of tribalism…

I mean when you have jokes about guys making hand sanitizer from their gardens referencing the COVID pandemic and showering in bleach.

How could they reference Covid when the film was written and shot before Covid?

[GodzillaFan1990's]

How could they reference Covid when the film was written and shot before Covid?

Reshoots obviously.

Given how the film was, I can easily tell it was heavily edited and reworked (The hollow earth and apex conspiracy which the story focused more on than the Vs. title being shoved in to catch up in case the film underperformed as King of the Monsters had, said two subplots that easily could've been the next two movies). Scenes that felt chopped up which is no surprise there was 5 hours of cut content.

Notably wasn't Godzilla suppose to have some Mega form base on some toy leak with him red or something?

Added in 11 minutes 56 seconds:
Movie overall felt more like a Kong movie with Godzilla as a guest character. Looking at it that way helps takes away many of the flaws I had with the film.

[Legion1979]

Why would anyone in their right mind want their escapist media to reference COVID?

[Chris55]

How could they reference Covid when the film was written and shot before Covid?

Reshoots obviously.

Given how the film was, I can easily tell it was heavily edited and reworked (The hollow earth and apex conspiracy which the story focused more on than the Vs. title being shoved in to catch up in case the film underperformed as King of the Monsters had, said two subplots that easily could've been the next two movies). Scenes that felt chopped up which is no surprise there was 5 hours of cut content.

Notably wasn't Godzilla suppose to have some Mega form base on some toy leak with him red or something?

Added in 11 minutes 56 seconds:
Movie overall felt more like a Kong movie with Godzilla as a guest character. Looking at it that way helps takes away many of the flaws I had with the film.

While there were reshoots (which is normal), the film's principal photography was finished in early 2019. According to Eiza Gonzalez's Hollywood reporter interview:

Q: A couple Godzilla vs. Kong cast members have told me that they did not have to go back for additional photography. Did you have to go back, or are you in the clear?

Gonzalez: Yeah, everything’s been done. These movies take a long time because there’s a lot of CGI in them. But, yeah, we’ve done everything, and they’re just going through and creating these incredible characters. I’m just really excited to see it because it’s these two worlds colliding. The fan base for Godzilla vs. Kong is incredible. When I say I’m in the movie, people are like, “Oh my God.” Seeing that fanaticism and seeing how excited they are to see this movie makes me really excited; I think they’re going to be really happy. [Director] Adam Wingard is so talented. Both stories are going parallel, as you’ll see, without giving anything away. It’s a large cast as well, and it was really fun to be part of it. There’s so much going on, but the heart of it is two young girls as well, which is such a positive message for society nowadays. It’s just incredible.

We did a few days [of additional photography], but it wasn’t really crazy. Like every other film, we did a couple days, and that was kind of it. When you do these big, massive films, there’s always moments that you didn’t see and want to fill in. It was really basic stuff. Nothing too crucial or crazy.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movie ... k-1284918/


Seems HIGHLY doubtful that reshoots would include Covid jokes when Covid wasn't a thing. It's time and money spent for what?

Regarding the MEGA Godzilla:

Mirjahangir: There was a I guess a toy leak awhile back and there was a “Mega Godzilla” that was kind of shows like a Godzilla with battle armor or something on there. What was that I heard about it but I never really got like a clear image of it but… do you know what I’m talking about?

Wingard: Dunno if I’ve seen that one.

Mirjahangir: May have been something by Playmates that they were just screwing around with or something.

Wingard: Well yeah I mean like toy companies are always like you know expanding on things you know yeah I’m not totally sure.

Regarding the "5 hours of cut content"

Mirjahangir: Yeah… you know I am curious because you had mentioned in the commentary like the first 30 minutes were kind of rearranged and stuff I’m wondering what that 30 minutes would have been?

Wingard: Chris, I would not dare go into that with you on this okay we’ll get taken out of context.

Mirjahangir: Okay.

Wingard: Nah, I was just kidding so I mean you know like… it’s still the same movie yeah like that there’s different scenes there’s a bit of a different kind of set up in terms of the actual reason that they’re going to the hollow earth. But it’s so funny because you look at the final film and it took so little to actually change that you know it meant cutting out a decent amount of deleted scenes you know here and there throughout the film but it doesn’t matter and it’s like you know I made the mistake on one interview saying oh yeah I mean I could cut a 5 hour version of the film and that got taken as there’s a 5 hour version of the film or that there even would be a 5 hour version of the film. Let me go ahead and set that straight because I’m sure that this is the type of stuff that you really want to get into right?

Mirjahangir: Oh yeah.

Wingard: So the longest version of the movie that ever existed was the editors cut and it was two hours and 45 minutes and by editors cut that means my editor cut dailies as we were shooting which means that’s always going to be the longest version of your film, right?

Mirjahangir: Yeah.

Wingard: The director’s cut was about 2 hours and 10 minutes I want to say it was between 2 hours 10 and 2 hours 15. It was never longer than that and I remember that really specifically because I remember it shocked the producers because they’re used to getting longer director’s cuts you know yeah but I never had any kind of delusions that the movie was going to be more than 2 hours long I didn’t want to be more than 2 hours long it’s not a movie I wanted to see I felt like all these like blockbusters A. B. there so many of them that are over 2 hours and I just I think it hurts the movies you know it’s like it you know that when you’re doing like a you know some crazy action thrill ride movie like this it’s like it’s kind of what I’ve always said it’s like you’re not going to get more of the fun stuff you just going to get more people talking about doing fun stuff you know and the you know and it’s not that I don’t value what the characters are doing saying feeling thinking I’m gonna live with these characters every day I’ve evolved with them you know during this long process and so I have a lot of you know feelings for them you know I want them to succeed as characters and for what they want as characters. But at the end of the day I think you know like you know we’re telling a movie and it’s about the whole it’s not just about like you know having more scenes in all this I don’t think that more scenes with characters talking about stuff are gonna make you like the characters more I don’t think it’s going to make you more invested in the film like you know cinema is time you know like that’s what you’re doing you’re chipping away at something and there’s like the physical chipping away you know there’s you can see the visuals, you’re putting shots together you’re putting sounds and images together but there’s the invisible kind of chipping away which is time you’re always looking at frames you know you’re saying well you know what this reaction is better if its 3 frame shorter which you know is like almost imperceptible but it makes a big difference when you add all these things up you know and so when you look at a film’s whole… a longer running time it affects you, it affects the movie’s overall you know overall things.

https://www.tohokingdom.com/blog/interv ... 21-round2/

One thing I think we can all agree on is that there needs to be a huge box set with all the films and deleted scenes etc.

[Jetty_Jags]

Adding to the topic of reshoots, I came across an individual on reddit a few months ago who claimed to have seen a prescreening of GvK. Now they could be making everything up, but this didn't come up in a godzilla related subreddit, rather one asking about audience members of prescreening events for blockbusters. I asked them this question, and here was the response,

[Pic]https://imgur.com/fC8qmqw[/Pic]

I can't get the pic to work for some reason let me know if you can access this link: https://imgur.com/fC8qmqw

[king_ghidorah]

Not working.

The mega Godzilla aspect though, I’ve been in touch with someone who spoke to someone high up in the film’s early drafts that mega Godzilla was very much a real thing at one point.

Instead of using energy from hollow earth, that armor was used a day weapon to drain Godzilla of his energy and power up MG.