The case for Godzilla 98 as the start of the Millennium Series

[Chrispy_G]

I know a lot of this goes by year range...but RoG is included in the Heisei Era even though it is technically a Showa film because of the series it spawned and is connected to.

Is it overlooked that G98 is the entire reason that the Millennium Series exists?

Godzilla was initially meant to have years of hiatus from Toho. Then after 98 they clearly felt they had to reclaim the character a bit. That's how Godzilla 2000 happened.

There are moments and aesthetics that make G2K feel very reminiscent of G98. Godzilla up close with a car looking through the front window, a sequence with a car escaping Godzilla and a tunnel. A lot of the opening of G2K feels like a repressing of several key moments of G98.

G98 also famously did the "water mound" when Godzilla was approaching underwater. G2K and several Millennium films sort of repeated and emulated that type of Waterfront approach by Godzilla, the spins breaking up through the water as he stays submerged, etc.

GMK overtly referenced G98 even as a joke.

Final Wars brought it full circle by including Zilla and having him killed by Godzilla.

If you were going to do Box Sets by era...and include EVERY film, US and Japanese...it would make a lot more sense to include G98 in the Millennium set than it would be to include it in the Heisei Set.

For me...G98 is just much more intrinsically linked as a preamble to the Millennium series than it is as some kind of epilogue to the Heisei Series.

The entire Millennium Series is basically the franchise having a PTSD identity crisis episode triggered by G98.

So I humbly suggest that G98 and Godzilla: The Series topics belong in the Millennium series section as opposed to the Heisei section.

[UltramanGoji]

Godzilla was initially meant to have years of hiatus from Toho. Then after 98 they clearly felt they had to reclaim the character a bit. That's how Godzilla 2000 happened.

G2K was made because TriStar's G98 sequel was taking longer than anticipated so Toho put a movie in production to fill the gap in time.

So I humbly suggest that G98 and Godzilla: The Series topics belong in the Millennium series section as opposed to the Heisei section.

Nah.

[Chrispy_G]

Godzilla was initially meant to have years of hiatus from Toho. Then after 98 they clearly felt they had to reclaim the character a bit. That's how Godzilla 2000 happened.

G2K was made because TriStar's G98 sequel was taking longer than anticipated so Toho put a movie in production to fill the gap in time.

So I humbly suggest that G98 and Godzilla: The Series topics belong in the Millennium series section as opposed to the Heisei section.

Nah.

So you agree that G98 is a cause, directly or indirectly of the entirety of the Millennium series, and then just dismiss placing it accordingly outright?

Thanks for hearing me out. This is worth consideration.

There are "exceptions" to the specific years all of the time. Gamera 3, G84. G98 by all lines of logic and reasoning is the genesis point of the Millennium Series.

[Legion1979]

.......WHAT!?!?!!?

[Terasawa]

If you were going to do Box Sets by era...and include EVERY film, US and Japanese...it would make a lot more sense to include G98 in the Millennium set than it would be to include it in the Heisei Set.

I think it would make the most sense to include it with the other American productions, or on its own, rather than with any of the Japanese films.

Something to consider is that Shogo Tomiyama guided the Godzilla series through the '90s and the entire Millennium Series; much of the same creative staff (from directors on down) was the same through most of these, as well. None of them were involved in any way on the 1998 TriStar film. IMO that's a far more important factor in how the movies should be grouped than by similar ideas, shots, other factors motivating production, or even inter-film continuity.

[edgaguirus]

From one viewpoint, yes, it could be the starting point.

However, 98 is more of an independent entry. It was a wholly American take on the character for an American audience. G2000 was already in production when 98 came out, so it's technically the opening film for the Millenium era.

[Legion1979]

This nutty thread is exactly what you get when fans obsess a little too much over "eras" and what belongs in each of them.

Also, edgaguirus, Godzilla 2000 was absolutely NOT in production in May of 1998. Toho hadn't even released Mothra 3 yet.

[UltramanGoji]

So you agree that G98 is a cause, directly or indirectly of the entirety of the Millennium series, and then just dismiss placing it accordingly outright?

It's a cause for the creation of the Millennium series of Godzilla films but it's not part of the "Millennium Era" of the kaiju genre. The Heisei Era begins with G84 and ends with Gamera 3 in 1999 and in my opinion (which, let's remember, this whole discussion is based on personal preference and opinion) it's where G98 belongs because it's still far more of a 90s movie than a movie for the new Millennium. G98 is one of the "capstone" films of the Heisei Era and I think it has way more in common stylistically with other Heisei films than anything from the Millennium series.

Thanks for hearing me out. This is worth consideration.

No offense but a single post and single opinion really isn't enough to convince staff to move literally all G98 related topics to a new section. It's just kind of laughable to suggest, really.

Added in 1 minute 27 seconds:

This nutty thread is exactly what you get when fans obsess a little too much over "eras" and what belongs in each of them.

I think there's some merit to discussing when each individual era of the kaiju genre began and what exactly is included in said eras. There's very clear stylistic differences between movies made in the Showa Era and movies made in the current "Resurgence" era for example.

[Legion1979]

Well obviously. But when you get to the point where you're trying to make a case for G98 being a Millennium film, I'd say it's time to back up a little.

[godjacob]

I mean the film is technically canon in the GMK Film with the reference made to it, but that's about as far as I would go with that.

[Legion1979]

I mean the film is technically canon in the GMK Film with the reference made to it, but that's about as far as I would go with that.

By that logic the original Mothra and War of the Gargantuas are Millennium films because they're canon with GxMG and Tokyo SOS.

[godjacob]

I mean the film is technically canon in the GMK Film with the reference made to it, but that's about as far as I would go with that.

By that logic the original Mothra and War of the Gargantuas are Millennium films because they're canon with GxMG and Tokyo SOS.

I wasn't claiming it was a Millennium film. I was more saying that is about as strong a connection you could make if you stretch.

[Omegamorph]

- 1998 Godzilla sits in its own continuity and isn't linked to any other Godzilla film

- there are several continuities in the Millennium series
1 G2K
2 GxM
3 GMK
4 GvM - GTS
5 FW

Add in what UltramanGoji said, which is that G2K was launched to fill in the gap between American movies, which is a strategy TOHO employs to this day (see: Shin)

If one were to make a HUGE BOXSET with ALL Godzilla films, G98 should sit with American productions (if the boxset classifies them by country) or in the 90s if you go by decade. Not much else to go with, and any attempt to canonize G98 into any other continuity fails, because (by intent) it is separate, and (by intent) the references to it in the Millennium series are script jokes

[LSD Jellyfish]

How have people ignored the simple observation that Godzilla 2000’s title is “ゴジラ2000:ミレニアム”(Godzilla 2000: Millenium). Literally, G2K is the start of a new era, and the era of films its representing is the millenium series.

[eabaker]

I think one thing that can obfuscate these issues is how American fans casually interchange the words "series" and "era" when talking about Godzilla movies. And I'm not condemning anyone for this; I do it as much as anyone.

But, let's be clear, "series" is the correct term to use here. These designations don't line up clearly with the actual Showa, Heisei and now Reiwa periods of Japanese history, nor do they correspond directly to discrete eras in Toho's history or the Japanese film industry as a whole. The Showa series covers several different very distinct periods in Toho's history, under different production models, while - as has previously been pointed out - the Heisei and Millennium series are largely part of the same broad-strokes era for Toho (and while there was a break in production of Godzilla movies during that time, there was no break in their production of kaiju films, and one of the major shifts in the creative team - Kawakita's departure - occurred during the production of the Heisei Mothra series).

G'98 was not produced as either part of the Heisei series nor as part of the Millennium series. It doesn't belong to either. But, when breaking the movies up chronologically, it is simplest to group G'98 with the Heisei series because it was released between RoMII and RoMIII, which share the "Heisei" label with the previous run of Godzilla movies.

[Mac Daddy MM]

I still support the merging of the Heisei and Millennium eras like most other toku franchises do at this point. With Reiwa now starting, we'd be back to three eras plus the MV stuff.

Showa era: 15 Godzilla films and a ton of one-offs (Rodan, Mothra, FCTW, WOTG, Dogora, etc)
Heisei era: 7 Godzilla films, 3 Mothra films and a one-off (Orochi)
Millennium era: 6 Godzilla films

Heisei and Millennium, especially millennium, is tiny.

[PuzzledAmphibian]

If were gonna get real technical the official english language Toho Godzilla site does not include Godzilla 98 in either era or series. Instead it puts it into a distinct category called 'Hollywood Production' with subcategories for 'Warner Bros. / Legendary Production' and 'TriStar Pictures Production.' All Toho produced films are listed under the 'Original Series' section. When you click on Heisei or Millenium films in this section it defines them as Heisei = 1984-1995 and Millenium = 1999-2004.

edit: I see several others have mentioned something similar above although I dont think anyone mentioned the official godzilla dot com as a source... if that means anything might depend on the user

[GojiSquid]

I know a lot of this goes by year range...but RoG is included in the Heisei Era even though it is technically a Showa film because of the series it spawned and is connected to.

RoG is included in large part because it is canonically connected to the events of all the following Hesei films. Plot elements of it directly lead into vs. Biollanted, which then lead into vs. King Ghidorah, and so on. It simply wouldn't make sense to lump it in with the Showa Era when every aspect of it, especially continuity, ties it with the Hesei films. G98 doesn't share continuity with any of the Millenium Era (aside from one joke made at it's expense), which on top of all of the other differences, makes it unneccesary to lump it in with them.

Another good reason to keep it on it's own is the fact that the film and it's creators wanted nothing to do with the larger Godzilla mythos/canon, and even did away with most of the fundamentals of Godzilla. If it doesn't want to play with the others, then it doesn't have to sit next to them.

[Terasawa]

It simply wouldn't make sense to lump it in with the Showa Era when every aspect of it, especially continuity, ties it with the Hesei films.

That it led to six Heisei-era sequels is what makes it officially part of the Heisei Godzilla Series, as you said. I'm not sure about "every aspect," though. Most of the principal staff is more closely linked to the Showa era tokusatsu films than the Heisei Godzilla series. On the other hand, the crew that was assembled for Godzilla vs Biollante had much less turnover through the Heisei and Millennium Godzilla Series. If you look at just the Godzilla films, RoG feels a lot more like the subsequent films, but in the broader canon of Toho productions, I think it's closer to the films that preceded it.

But since we're talking specifically about the Godzilla series, I think it makes perfect sense then to group it with the 1989-95 films, especially when factoring in inter-film continuity.

[Legion1979]

One of the roadblocks to these discussions is that a lot of fans tend to use the words "era" and "series" interchangeably, and a lot of that comes with trying to make all Tokusatsu fit into those terms. If we're only talking about Godzilla than "series" works across the board. But when people try to include EVERYTHING they start to use the term "era", and it all becomes a mess.