Final Wars: Why The Hate?

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szmigiel
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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

Post by szmigiel »

LamangoKaijura wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 5:43 pm
Yeah, I don't get the hate against the director. I've seen some of his other movies and they're heavily stylized, and ironically I think a lot of people on this site would probably love him. I'm not a big fan of GFW, but I don't get the antagonism towards Ryuhei Kitamura.
Cause he literally said there was no good Godzilla movies until 1974, then until 2004. That, and his other movies skreeonking suck twice as much.
I think you are confusing Ryuhei Kitamura and Jun Fukuda

http://robojapan.blogspot.com/2014/04/r ... -wars.html
“In fact I loved the Godzilla movies back in the ’70s, but not so much the ones released in the 1980s and ’90s. Godzilla movies back in the ’70s were never just monster movies… There were always messages and themes that reflected the time and world within which they were made, and they combined this so well with straight-out entertainment. They lost that touch in the ’80s. I’m an honest guy and that’s what I told the producer in the first meeting. Strangely, the producer liked what I said and I was hired to do something that was not only new, but also classic in a sense.”

http://www.davmil.org/www.kaijuconversa ... fukuda.htm
DM: Which of the Godzilla films you directed are your favorites?
JF: None of them.
DM: Are there any with which you are especially unhappy?
JF: Many.
DM: Do you feel that Toho should not have produced any sequels to GODZILLA - KING OF THE MONSTERS?
JF: I don't think that any sequels to the first Godzilla movie should have been made.

Also some fans like to make it sound like everything in the film was all Ryuhei Kitamura forcing what he wanted into the film and caused it to be the last film for a decade. Here are plenty of examples of that not being true.

The Mutants were part of the 1st draft of the script before Kitamura started working on the film
https://vantagepointinterviews.com/2019 ... inal-wars/
BH: Let’s talk about the original script as it was written by Mr. Tomiyama and Mr. (Wataru) Mimura. When you read the script, what were your initial thoughts about it? What did you like? What didn’t you like?
RK: I don’t remember that much. First, we began with the synopsis, which was basically Godzilla versus everybody. Some (of the characters were) the Xiliens, this new breed of hybrid human. That was all there. We started talking about it. Mimura-san wrote the first draft, I believe.

Wataru Mimura still worked on the script even after Kitamura started tweaking the story.
BH: So even after the original script was written, Mimura-san and Tomiyama-san were still collaborating with you and Mr. Kiriyama.
RK: Of course. We knew how important and big the franchise is, and Mimura-san and Tomiyama-san know more about the franchise than Kiriyama and I. We always collaborated, and we discussed everything. That’s how we did it.

The film series was being put on hold for a decade before Final Wars even premiered
http://www.tohokingdom.com/people/shogo_tomiyama.htm
“By 2003, though, the series had once again gone stagnant at the box office with the lackluster performance of Godzilla: Tokyo S.O.S.. Tomiyama had big things in store for the following year, though, as he stepped up to become the president of Toho along with co-writing and producing the most expensive Godzilla film to emerge from Toho: Godzilla: Final Wars (2004). Preceding the film's release, Tomiyama commented that Godzilla would go into a decade long retirement following the release of the 2004 film, and, after surveying the disappointing box office receipts for Godzilla: Final Wars (2004), stayed true to his word.”

Wataru Mimura on Final Wars Script
https://vantagepointinterviews.com/2015 ... the-big-g/
BH: How did you get hired to co-write Godzilla: Final Wars?
WM: Toho decided it was going to be the last Godzilla movie, so my writing team joined the plot, planning about one year before the actual production. It was Mr. Tomiyama’s idea. When the plot was completed, I wrote the first scenario. After that, Mr. Isao Kiriyama from the team of Mr. Ryuhei Kitamura, director of the movie, co-wrote the revised scenario together with Mr. Kitamura. The story line was not changed, but the nature of the characters and some words changed, according to Mr. Kitamura’s taste.

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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

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szmigiel wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 5:20 am -great stuff-
Good sources all around.
I think there's an irony of Ryuhei liking the Showa series and not liking the more recent selections. Also, the Ryuhei Kitamura interview throws cold water on the "picking toys out" idea and showcases why it's easy to take something out of context and seem worse than it is:
"RK: I decided with producer Mr. Tomiyama, special effects director Mr. Asada and writer lined up historical action figures on the table and we decided democratically which ones should be in this film Final Wars. It was difficult because everyone had a different attraction to different monsters, but at the end we were happy with these selections for the film."

It seems like it wasn't just Kitamura's choices on which monsters to pick, and it was more to make it easier to visualize and discuss in a conference.

I'll say one thing about Kitamura. While I think the film was a misfire in many ways, and very stupid, I think he did his job well as a director.
Last edited by LSD Jellyfish on Sun May 16, 2021 5:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
Spirit Ghidorah 2010 wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:54 pm Anno-san pleasures me more than Yamasaki-san.

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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

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To add to what szmigiel shared, back in April 2005, Henshin!Online published a pair of interviews with Ryuhei Kitamura, conducted during the Hollywood premiere of Godzilla: Final Wars in late November 2004, in which he offered his perspective on Godzilla:
Ryuhei Kitamura wrote:My favorite Godzilla movie was Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla. I think in that time, Godzilla had more power and speed, stronger than what he's been recently. I don't like recent Godzilla movies—not saying which one—but Godzilla has lost its power. So, the first thing I do for the producer, when he asked me to direct the 50th Anniversary film, is tell him that Godzilla is too weak! He has to be absolutely strong and that's what I'm gonna do! Godzilla has a taste like back in the '70s, maybe in Monster Zero, that I was influenced most by but updated to 2004.
Ryuhei Kitamura wrote:To be honest, I don't like the recent Godzilla movies. I haven't seen one in a theater for a long time, more than 10 years, but sometimes I see them on TV, and I just didn't like them. I had to be honest, so I spoke very directly to the producer and said, "I think you've been going the wrong way." The recent Godzilla movies are only for the very maniac Godzilla fans and for children, not for an ordinary audience, and I think there's something wrong with that. Godzilla is a big thing—it's for everybody, not only for the Godzilla fans or for children. They had been making the movies that way for a long time. And also, I couldn't see the director's style in the recent Godzilla movies. So, I told the producer, "I know there are some rules when you make a Godzilla movie, but it has to be my movie. I have to put my style into it." And he let me do it, more than 100 percent.
Ryuhei Kitamura wrote:My favorite Godzilla movies are from back in the '70s, like Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla. Back then, Godzilla had more speed and power. That's my favorite period but nobody can say which Godzilla is the "right" one. Everyone has a different opinion, all over the world, but my personal taste is the '70s Godzilla. He was stronger. So when the producer asked me to direct the next film, I told him, "Godzilla is too weak in the recent films."
Ryuhei Kitamura wrote:You can't compare Final Wars to the first film. That's something special and I do respect it. This one is completely different. You can't compete with the original film.
Ryuhei Kitamura wrote:I used to watch Godzilla movies as a kid. When I was 15 or 16, I went to the theater where they showed five old Godzilla movies in one night. I used to go there every weekend and watch lots of Godzilla movies but I never imagined I would be the director of a Godzilla movie, so I was very surprised when the producer asked me.
And when asked by the interviewer if Kitamura would like to see Godzilla fight King Kong again in the future among a handful of other potential contenders:
Ryuhei Kitamura wrote:Seriously, of course, King Kong. The last one, you know [King Kong vs. Godzilla], that one was a masterpiece.
Kitamura was always a casual Godzilla fan, not a guy who identified as a fan, just a guy who liked watching a lot of Godzilla movies at the theater when he was a teenager in the mid-‘80s. He was never a “very maniac Godzilla fan” as he put it.
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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

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StreamOfKaijuness wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 6:44 am
Ryuhei Kitamura wrote:The last one, you know [King Kong vs. Godzilla], that one was a masterpiece.
Hell yes, it was.
寺沢. He/him/his, etc.

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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

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shadowgigan wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 10:57 pm Lol, if Tarantino ends up directing Godzilla, I think I'll just give up on life. Really no point in living after that.
You would really be suicidal over one the best directors working today doing a Godzilla film? Someone that loves these films and genre, dearly? Sorry, obvious hyperbole or not, this is just a flaming bad take, if I ever saw one.
UltramanGoji wrote: Cranky because you got mad I implied GFW isn't a good movie aren't you
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I'll gladly eat crow if it doesn't turn out that way....but at this point it feels painfully obvious, as it has for months.

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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

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Goji wrote: Tue May 25, 2021 11:41 am
shadowgigan wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 10:57 pm Lol, if Tarantino ends up directing Godzilla, I think I'll just give up on life. Really no point in living after that.
You would really be suicidal over one the best directors working today doing a Godzilla film? Someone that loves these films and genre, dearly? Sorry, obvious hyperbole or not, this is just a flaming bad take, if I ever saw one.
I interpreted it as "what's the point of going on when something as awesome as Tarantino tackling a Godzilla movie happens in your lifetime"
Kaltes-Herzeleid wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 9:44 am I love Final Wars. I praise Final Wars. Simple as.

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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

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shadowgigan wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 10:57 pm Lol, if Tarantino ends up directing Godzilla, I think I'll just give up on life. Really no point in living after that.
At times Shin Godzilla gave off a bit of a Tarantino-vibe with how it was a largely stylized piece.

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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

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Tarantino may put in a Godzilla foot fetish scene that could drive some viewers over the edge of sanity.

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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

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Tarantino's Godzilla was never a real thing, it was just him bullshitting in an interview. He has a million "I have an idea for..." stories, most recently that Star Trek project that was never going to happen.
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Re: Final Wars: Why The Hate?

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Jetty_Jags wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 12:56 pm
Bigdog wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 9:44 pm
- Turned an interesting original Godzilla pitch from an American into a box office bomb that stripped all reference of Godzilla out of it.

- TOHO denied a Quentin Tarantino Godzilla film when he was in his immensely successful prime, probably because he was foreign. It seemed as different and wild as Ryuhei Kitamura's Final Wars, but unlike Kitamura, his name on the project and cast would've brought financial success internationally versus domestically. It would've revived the franchise sooner than a decade.
Can you provide the sources for these two points? I'm entirely unfamiliar with the first one unless its a reference to G98, and I knew Tarantino wanted to make a g film (or at least mentioned hypothetical interest), but I never knew he was actually denied making one.


1. Gunhed was originally a script pitch from James Bannon for Godzilla 2. It's literally on the main website, even. Godzilla vs. Biollante won out, but his script was turned into what became the final film. https://www.tohokingdom.com/cutting_room/godzilla2.htm

2. This part I didn't remember correctly, though. Quentin Tarantino did have a wild pitch for a Godzilla movie. https://comicbook.com/anime/news/godzil ... on-movie/


LamangoKaijura wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 5:43 pm
The source is their ass.
I falsely remembered the Tarantino bit. However? The Godzilla vs Gunhed film was one of the two scripts that won the Godzilla 2 contest back in the 80s. And as sourced above, is on the Cutting Room Floor on this very website.

Terasawa wrote: Fri May 14, 2021 10:57 am
Bigdog wrote: Thu May 13, 2021 9:44 pm - They denied a decent Godzilla pitch because Tomoyuki Tanaka was racist against foreigners, instead producing schlock after schlock until Destoroyah.
Quite the accusation. You're going to need to cite this.
Racist is too strongly worded on my end.Modern sensibilities might have him him coined as a racist, though being xenophobic doesn't always necessarily mean racist. I'd definitely say that if the below link's account behind the scenes is true, according to their account, , one of the sole reasons why his pitch for Godzilla vs. The Mysterians ultimately wasn't picked up as a Godzilla film was due to him being a foreigner. The same as Gunhed had all its Godzilla references stripped out of it. If the website is fake, then I'll gladly acquiesce.

http://www.totaldanger.com/td_pages/god ... cover.html


Why would Toho have any say in the development of an internal Sony project? Certainly Toho wouldn't have any authority over how Sony budgeted its own film. This is an unrealistic and uninformed take. Toho didn't have the absolute control over the Sony film that you're alleging.

Feel free to read the original 1993 contract here if you doubt that.
I don't mean or believe Toho would have such a massive influence over the American production. But the laissez faire way they held the 1998 film, creatively speaking leaves much to be desired, given Nintendo was burned by the flop and cult classic Super Mario Bros, which barely resembled the game or its spirit from a glance.

On the other hand, I'm critiquing Sony, not Toho, in how it ultimately wasted the same production budget on the final product that effectively killed mainstream interest in Godzilla until 2014. From a creative and financial end, Godzilla movies where he fights a monster are typically more successful fare than the solo outings. Not surprising since that's the popular depiction of Godzilla anyways. And maybe Toho's execs had enough faith in Emmerich's vision. One would think alarm bells would've went off seeing it take such a vast departure from the established IP, but I suppose that is merely hindsight.

I'm just critiquing how some people treat Toho as wholly in the right and can do no wrong. They still, as far as I know, approved the many creative changes to the Sony Godzilla film and only feigned outrage when it didn't do so hot with audiences and critics, scapegoating Sony and Tristar. Some of which are deserved, considering their history with big franchises has since then hit or miss.

Apparently, the 1998 film wasn't as much of a financial failure I originally believed it was, either, but I'll have to look into the claim to verify if it's true.


Kaneko's pitch was subject to Toho's modifications precisely because GxM had failed to meet expectations at the box office. There was a lot of doubt about the future of the Godzilla series going into GxM and even more after its floundered. (Never reached the top spot at the box office and remained a top ten earner for only a few weeks.)
You're right here. But in my opinion, it doesn't quite make sense that they chose a director renowned for reviving Gamera into a respectable and successful trilogy, then hamstring said director. On the other hand, Toho's higher ups were probably expecting something like an early Showa style movie or like his trilogy, not supernatural monsters or a mutated astronaut fighting Godzilla. That to me seems about as weird at face value as Tarantino's pitch.

I believe the initial Uchujin story had some merit, just not right after a flop. It probably could be reworked into an interesting tragic horror film if it nixed the giant monster aspect and played it straight, like if it was a Thing [Fantastic Four] movie. GMK's few issues I definitely credit to Shusuke Kaneko, because while I give TOHO flack, Kaneko had some responsibility for not making lemonade. Ghidorah and Mothra feel tacked on instead of changing the mythology to better reflect them, considering Ghidorah is a dragon, and dragons are viewed as noble creatures in Eastern mythology, while the first Chinese emperor claimed to be a descendant of one. I don't know enough about Japanese imperial mythology to say if the same happened. But, I looked it up and yeah? Jimmu is treated as a descendant of the dragon sea god Ryujin. That would've been a great springboard for a reinvented Ghidorah or Manda;[or just fuse both], implying that Ghidorah is the great uncle to Jimmu. Have Mothra be the goddess of the sky instead. But let's face it. Both the pitch and the final product's labeling of the monsters make little sense other than for Baragon.

It'd make much more sense to just explore the Kiryu series as a trilogy than just X MechaGodzilla and Tokyo SOS, but those weren't likely even thought of until after GMK came out. And from a recent mindset, X MechaGodzilla definitely feels safer than the previous two, not that I like it any less. It's probably one of my top ten favorites that made the military characters interesting to delve into. Add another reason why I was disappointed in Godzilla 2014 in how it handled Ford. He wasn't as bland as some people made him out to be, but I have to admit he wasn't as interesting as per say, his father. Though it's hard not to be upstaged by an actor such as Bryan Cranston.

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