Who Hates Heisei?

For discussion of Toho produced and distributed films or shows released from 1980 up to 1998 (includes Gamera 3)
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What is your stance on the post-'91 Heisei Godzilla films?

I consider these films flawless masterpieces.
9
9%
I love these films.
29
28%
I like these films.
38
37%
I am neutral on these films.
15
14%
I dislike these films.
4
4%
I strongly dislike these films.
1
1%
I literally hate these films.
8
8%
I have never seen these films.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 104

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Terasawa
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Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by Terasawa »

Legion1979 wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:18 pm Rap music, huh? So the movie could have been worse??
I think he might have been referring to the uptempo dance music that plays briefly as source music when the G-Force guys are heading to Baas Island.
Last edited by Terasawa on Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by eabaker »

Terasawa wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:32 pm
Legion1979 wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:18 pm Rap music, huh? So the movie could have been worse??
I think he might have been referring to the uptempo dance music that plays briefly as source music when the G-Force guys are heading to Baas Island.
I've always assumed that's what he was referring to as well.
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Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by Terasawa »

I think the most interesting aspect of Ifukube's comments on Godzilla vs SpaceGodzilla is that, in a couple of sentences, he more precisely defines the different direction Tomiyama and co. wanted for GvSG better than the movie itself did. (I'm not sure it all adds up to a "teen idol movie," even though some of the usual elements are there; personally I've never really been able to fully discern what exactly Yamashita or Kashiwabara were trying to accomplish.)

Also, I can't picture that movie with an Ifukube soundtrack, whether it would have helped or not. (Maybe the Mysterians Earth Defense Force music repurposed for MOGERA?) But I can't imagine Godzilla vs Biollante with an Ifukube soundtrack, either, and his music is already pretty prominent in that movie.
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Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by Marciosss »

JAGzilla wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:25 am Welcome, by the way! What is your native language?
Polish
But I can't imagine Godzilla vs Biollante with an Ifukube soundtrack, either, and his music is already pretty prominent in that movie.[/img]
Same, but i can image replacement Ifukube tracks in Heisei by works of Hattori from G2000.

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Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by Angilasman »

Neither love nor hate. Really dig Return and Biollante, but am mixed on the rest. Probably am fonder of the messy but interesting GvKG and the pleasant silliness of SG than most. It's not that I don't get some enjoyment from these movies. I just don't find them that interesting.

The truth is, I unreservedly love the Showa series, from the grim beginning, colorful populist heyday, to the childish psychedelics of the later entries. Those films are all interesting, all entertaining. For the Heisei, Millenium, and MonsterVerse entries? I mean, I love Godzilla, and I rarely outright dislike an entry, but I only outright love entries here and there: Biollante, GMK, G '14, Shin, etc. Compared this with Gamera and Ultraman in the same time frame ('90s to today) which have had sustained periods of excellent movies or shows.

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Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by Kaltes-Herzeleid »

They're decent. First three in particular are good, or at least ambitious. Rest have good moments but are mostly so mixed it bogs what's good down.
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Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by Omegamorph »

darthzilla99 wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 12:33 pm -think that supposedly the Heisei miniatures are less detailed than showa era miniatures and will state as fact but can never explain what details are missing in Heisei miniatures even when you show a comparison of various honda golden age showa miniature photos vs Heisei miniatures photos
skreonk me that's a good one
Platypus Prime wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:21 pm I realized today that thanks to a few animations and manga she's appeared in, Biollante is an anime girl.
miguelnuva wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2024 5:47 pm With this being an Oscar for best visual effects you can also joke and say Godzilla really did win the oscar.

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Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by Legion1979 »

I feel like the argument that "people criticizing the Heisei miniatures can't explain themselves when asked to do so" isn't a thing that actually happens. I've found over the years that people with complain about the Heisei effects can explain themselves pretty well.

But what do I know...

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Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by Angilasman »

Legion1979 wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 8:18 am I feel like the argument that "people criticizing the Heisei miniatures can't explain themselves when asked to do so" isn't a thing that actually happens. I've found over the years that people with complain about the Heisei effects can explain themselves pretty well.

But what do I know...
And it's not just the details of the miniatures, either: they're often not filmed from angles that sell the scale or even provide interesting compositions. Combine that with all the flat, empty spaces and it often feels like the monsters are stomping through a studio floor with scattered obstacles instead of a true miniature set. Super cheap Ultraman episodes from the '70s which stage fights with the camera placed within a small miniature environment and shoot through that to the suit performers fighting in the background with no other miniatures used often give a better sense of scale!

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Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by Legion1979 »

Even old Gamera movies that place the camera at ground level with items in the foreground do a better job than some of the Heisei movies.

The final battle of Godzilla vs Space Godzilla is especially terrible in this regard. Theres no attempt at a sense of scale. Everything is shot in the most lackluster way possible. The crystal stalagmites look extremely cheap. But the worst part is that the more the monsters fight and destroy elements of the set the more the cameramen stop even trying to hide the fact that they're on a soundstage with bare floor around their feet.

Watch any of the fights in the 90s Gamera trilogy. The budgets are much lower but not only are the miniatures BETTER (mainly because the scale of the Monsters aren't way too big) but the cinematography makes everything feel like a real space. The Tokyo fight in Guardian of the Universe (a lot of which is shot at ground level looking up) feels like it's taking place in a real city people live in

By contrast, by the time we get to Godzilla vs Mechagodzilla every city scene that isn't comprised of mattes looks incredibly artificial.

Or...was I not supposed to be able to explain my criticisms? I'm confused at how the "Who hates Heisei" narrative is supposed to play out.
Last edited by Legion1979 on Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by Terasawa »

Kawakita had a lot more space (and money) to work with than Higuchi did, and so his films almost invariably have an enormous set with at least one model of a landmark (the Shinjuku skyscrapers, the 100-meter ferris wheel, the baseball stadium, Fukuoka Tower, etc.); it's in this set in which most of the climactic monster action takes place in each film. The downside of this approach is that it restricts the geography of the scene and confines the monsters to several blocks of miniature buildings. And the longer the battles drag on, the more the limited model scenery is destroyed, ultimately leaving very little for the DP to photograph by the monsters.

But because Higuchi didn't have that space to work with, he realized that the few sets they did build would have to be repurposed over and over to represent different locations. I think his crews built a lot of model structures that were meant to be reusable but not immediately recognizably so, and so the audience isn't able to tell the sets were tiny. Note that the final monster battles in G1 and G2 cover literally miles: they wouldn't have been able to do that had they built the same extensive sets that Kawakita's crews did. The major exception is the finale of Gamera 3, which is pretty much the same single-set approach Kawakita used in the '90s Godzilla movies.
Last edited by Terasawa on Wed Aug 10, 2022 3:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by eabaker »

Terasawa wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:56 pm The major exception is the finale of Gamera 3, which is pretty much the same single-set approach Kawakita used in the '90s Godzilla movies.
The main difference there being that it is not an expansive set requiring the monsters to be mostly photographed from a distance, but a case where the monsters are confined to a very small area and their actions are photographed in large part from the perspective of the characters in their immediate vicinity, keeping it all more dramatically intimate and more focused on the scale of the monsters.
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Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by Legion1979 »

Terasawa wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 2:56 pm
But because Higuchi didn't have that space to work with, he realized that the few sets they did build would have to be repurposed over and over to represent different locations. I think his crews built a lot of model structures that were meant to be reusable but not immediately recognizably so, and so the audience isn't able to tell the sets were tiny. Note that the final monster battles in G1 and G2 cover literally miles: they wouldn't have been able to do that had they built the same extensive sets that Kawakita's crews did. The major exception is the finale of Gamera 3, which is pretty much the same single-set approach Kawakita used in the '90s Godzilla movies.


But even then he did something Kawakita never did, by setting the climax entirely INSIDE a building.

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Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by Angilasman »

I hate to drag Kawakita, because he did incredible work on Biollante and Gunhead (and, fitfully, throughout the Heisei films), but alot of the tokusatsu work in the '90s films is confusingly bad looking. I've been watching the '90s Ultraman shows and they're just so more dynamically despite being on a TV budget.

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Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by Terasawa »

Angilasman wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 5:12 pm I hate to drag Kawakita, because he did incredible work on Biollante and Gunhead (and, fitfully, throughout the Heisei films)
I really like his work in Bye-Bye Jupiter (the only good thing about that wretched movie?) and Zero Pilot (his first film as FX director). IMO his best work was usually anything but monsters, although you wouldn't necessarily know that from his '90s movies.
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Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by Omegamorph »

Biollante is - without the shadow of a doubt - the very best effect Godzilla films have ever had to offer, bar none. A monster for the ages
Platypus Prime wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:21 pm I realized today that thanks to a few animations and manga she's appeared in, Biollante is an anime girl.
miguelnuva wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2024 5:47 pm With this being an Oscar for best visual effects you can also joke and say Godzilla really did win the oscar.

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Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by Angilasman »

Terasawa wrote: Wed Aug 10, 2022 7:47 pmI really like his work in Bye-Bye Jupiter (the only good thing about that wretched movie?) and Zero Pilot (his first film as FX director). IMO his best work was usually anything but monsters, although you wouldn't necessarily know that from his '90s movies.
His '80s work is stellar. Was it just his alcoholism that began effecting his work in the '90s or maybe that was also a symptom of some kind if creative burnout or other personal issue? I suppose, since we weren't there and we can't ask him now, that it'll stay a mystery.

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Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by Jomei »

I voted neutral because, though I don't re-watch most of these often, they each have elements I appreciate despite being overall less successful films.

The more I think about it, the stranger I find these "Who hates?" threads. Just because of how I'm wired, I instinctively enjoy giant monster stuff, especially Godzilla or Japanese kaiju content. I can't honestly think of a movie of that type I actively "hate."

Like, even Final Wars or G'98, seemingly eternal punching bag films, I don't actually hate. I have many criticisms and elements I find disappointing... but even in those there are lots of cool things, and I mostly enjoy them (at least parts!).
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Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by edgaguirus »

Jomei wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:18 pm The more I think about it, the stranger I find these "Who hates?" threads. Just because of how I'm wired, I instinctively enjoy giant monster stuff, especially Godzilla or Japanese kaiju content. I can't honestly think of a movie of that type I actively "hate."

Most of us here seem to feel the same way. We'll criticize and point out what these films do wrong, but we still watch and enjoy them.
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Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by JAGzilla »

Jomei wrote: Fri Aug 12, 2022 12:18 pm The more I think about it, the stranger I find these "Who hates?" threads. Just because of how I'm wired, I instinctively enjoy giant monster stuff, especially Godzilla or Japanese kaiju content. I can't honestly think of a movie of that type I actively "hate."

Like, even Final Wars or G'98, seemingly eternal punching bag films, I don't actually hate. I have many criticisms and elements I find disappointing... but even in those there are lots of cool things, and I mostly enjoy them (at least parts!).
This is exactly me, too. And I don't think we're exactly the minority, here. I only created this thread to prove that. TK is constantly accused of hating the Heisei movies, and we transparently do not. The poll just provides a concrete visual you can't argue with.

The other threads aren't mine, so I can't say what they were intended to do.
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