Theory: Mothra caused SpaceGodzilla

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Desghidorah
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Theory: Mothra caused SpaceGodzilla

Post by Desghidorah »

SpaceGodzilla is semi infamous for having two proposed origins that never get confirmed or de-confirmed as to which way it happened. Somehow Godzilla cells wound up in space and got swallowed up by a small black hole, were shot out into a distant system, combined with crystalline organisms and then the cells were exposed to massive amount of radiation and energy from a star going nova. The energy jump-started the regenerative abilities of the cells, combining with the crystals, and presto- monster!

The film proposed either Biollante's spores going into the high atmosphere or Mothra flying into space with some cells stuck to her claws as the origin. Traditionally, fans favored the Biollante origin. The cited reasons are
  • that this is the origin brought up in prototype treatment for GvsSG, Astrogodzilla
  • the Biollante origin is mentioned in some early merchandise like the Treadmaster toys
  • the two both have tusks on the sides of their heads
  • both fall apart into energy particulates after death
There is nothing debunking this origin, lemme make that clear. However, I believe that Mothra has a good claim to being just as likely, if not subtly confirmed if we take in-universe reasoning alongside the out-of-universe film development.

AstroGodzilla was a story treatment with a fascinating development history, especially in light of it essentially being Toho treading water as the previous plan to end the series in VsMechagodzilla2 was scrapped as the American remake was in limbo. Originally, as many know, it started out as a Ghidorah script with a more showa-era like Emperor Ghidorah to appear. This appears to be a recycled idea from further back in development, where it was to be that the Heisei King Ghidorah was engineered from the remains of an actual alien Ghidorah and the monster we saw in 1992 was the Futurians essentially making a more controllable clone. A lot of Emperor Ghidorah's "DNA" if it were still wound up in AstroGodzilla.

Several of the concept art pieces for AstroGodzilla are still quite Ghidorah-like (and to be very fair, some are quite Biollante-like)
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The choice to make it a Ghidorah fell through due to Yamato Takeru having the multi-headed Orochi, and there was a worry it be a bit same-facey having both films come out relatively close to each other. Still, AstroGodzilla remained very much an expy of Showa King Ghidorah as a spare faring, planet destroying monster which had wiped out several civilizations. Mothra, privy to this, sent back the warning before joining in herself. In fact in a weird way if you squint at it, GvsAstroGodzilla was something of a soft-remake of Ghidorah the Three-Headed Monster with Mechagodzilla/Moguera substituting for Rodan.

It is notable that the Vs. AstroGodzilla treatment, far as I can tell, makes 0 mention of Mothra as a possible candidate for AstroGodzilla's creation. In fact given it had been active and destroying planets for several years, it being Biollante who was the origin makes a lot more sense as a start. But, this isn't the monster we got nor is it the film we got. We didn't get AstroGodzilla, we got SpaceGodzilla. And more changed than just the name and general look.

And a big difference in the final film is, in both the English dub and Japanese original, SpaceGodzilla hadn't seemed to devastate any other planets thus far and was actually making a beeline straight to Earth. The echoes of Showa Ghidorah are much more subdued and the implication is that SpaceGodzilla is substantially younger than the prototypical version and hasn't had as much time to do such things. This makes more sense if SG was a byproduct of Mothra as she was in space far shorter than Biollante was.

Additionally, it reinforces why Mothra would be privy to this but couldn't turn back to help specifically if SpaceGodzilla was, metaphorically and literally, born yesterday. There was no time and that asteroid had to be diverted, so the best she could do is send the Cosmos' message as a Hail Mary to Miki and warn her.

But what about the facets of SpaceGodzilla that seem to line up with Biollante?
  • that this is the origin brought up in prototype treatment for GvsSG, Astrogodzilla
    -Potentially irrelevant as this does not reflect the final film
    -
  • the Biollante origin is mentioned in some early merchandise like the Treadmaster toys
    -Likewise, as on top of this many of the toys coming out abroad were beating the films by years and only VsBiollante had a stateside release at the time. It also could be a case of this being something changed later into production in some instances and the merch had to be ready soon.
    -
  • the two both have tusks on the sides of their heads
    -Virtually all of the Heisei antagonists have that, it's just a design quirk of the era. Plus Destoroyah has them and it was at least partially incorporating Godzilla genes into itself to make the final form, so it stands that Godzilla always had the genes for cheek tusks. Additionally, SpaceGodzilla's design came from SuperGodzilla whom had such a trait alongside the head crest and bit shoulders. Design development wise, it would have had the tusks regardless of origin.
    -
  • both fall apart into energy particulates after death
    -So did Rodan to be fair, if in a different manner. Additionally we saw similar particle effects off Mothra so this similarity is not quite exclusive.


Mothra also was much further out into space than Biollante ever got, meaning she had a higher chance of carrying the cells a longer distance for some to break off and accidentally wind up getting warped away. Mothra being responsible also adds extra thematic weight to the events as she caused this coming calamity and now, ironically, the very being she had to fight her hardest battle against is the best hope for planet Earth to survive. If one wants to get symbolic, the posters for the film practically look like she is anointing Godzilla as the planet's protector in her absence.


But there is in-universe another big reason why Mothra makes more sense. Remember those Futurians and their debacle? Now this is entirely in-universe justification as obviously the filmmakers were not planning GvsSG in 1990-1991 during Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah's development cycle. Emmy Kano stated that in the actual future, Godzilla never destroyed Japan. Why is never exactly clarified, but one can presume the most frugal explanation is that the Godzilla that attacked in 1984 and then battled Biollante in 1989 never recovered from the anti-nuclear bacteria and remained dormant in the ocean for centuries. Other possibilities is in the future they finally did find a way to kill him, or Godzilla never attacked again for any number of reasons.

Presumably the meteor strike from 1993 still happened regardless. That, combined with environmental destruction, woke up Mothra and Battra. The two eventually battled it out with no Godzilla interfering and given mankind was not substantially damaged, Mothra must have won again by either being forced into destroying Battra again or beating him down to stop. With Battra either dead, incapacitated, or pacified; Mothra (either with him or alone) sets out to stop the incoming asteroid that'll hit in 1999.

Here's the crux however. SpaceGodzilla in the film was able to go toe-to-toe with MOGUERA (whom is an upgrade over Mechagodzilla) and a post-double power-up boosted Godzilla, and win against either 1-on-1. Even with less monster attacks to damage Japan, G-Force or some equivalent agency would not have the firepower to stop SpaceGodzilla if they attacked in the Futurian timeline. At best they'd have another Super-X on call, but given this would be a year earlier and not have any Futurian technology to reverse engineer, no Super-X3. Even if they had an X3 equivalent, I don't see that cutting it given SpaceGodzilla's raw power, lack of easy to exploit weaknesses, and ability to heavily damage electronics. Even if Mothra turned the ship around and hauled herself planet side as fast as possible and even if Battra was still alive to help, I don't see a double moth + maybe a Super-X2.5 being enough. Not when it took G-Force's most powerful mecha made with future tech and a multi-powered up Godzilla giving it their all to win.

If SpaceGodzilla exists in the Futurian timeline, humanity loses. SpaceGodzilla would arrive planetside with nothing that could stop them before they could set up their crystal fortress. And once that is set up and it starts expanding into the planet, something easily forgotten, it's game over. You ain't uprooting them then. Not easily and certainly not in a manner that would go unmentioned by Emmy. Production wise the reason she never mentioned SpaceGodzilla, Mothra, or anything after GvsKG was simply because none of those films had been made yet. But in-universe the only explanation is that SpaceGodzilla never happened. No SpaceGodzilla also explains why Destoroyah didn't become as big of a threat as they did in the core timeline of the films. If SpaceGodzilla arrived, Destroyah might have either never been released to begin with by development in Tokyo bay, or SpaceGodzilla sought it out and destroyed it before it became a problem.

No SpaceGodzilla means either
  • A - Development happened differently and Destoroyah never got released to start growing
    or
  • B - Destoroyah was released but was defeated before it could reach its final stage, as there was no Godzilla to copy the DNA of to make the endoskeleton (the explanation for why the final stage is much bigger and looks different)
And given Vs. Biollante happened in the Futurian timeline, the only way for SpaceGodzilla to not have existed is if Mothra never fought Godzilla to carry the cells into space. In other words, :Mothra61: + :Godzilla68: = :Spacegodzilla:

This also makes sense of some of the seemingly supernatural abilities SpaceGodzilla has. If Mothra is, essentially, magical maybe some of it 'rubbed off' so to speak?



Now there is a way Biollante could still be involved, and that would be if some of her stray G-cells were in the high atmosphere when Mothra flew through them and unwittingly carried them. In this way, both were responsible. Why didn't this happen in the Futurian timeline? Could be Mothra managed to beat Battra quicker due to no big gray Goliath charging into the fray to complicate things and just by happenstance, didn't fly through Biollante's spore cloud due to leaving at a different time.
Last edited by Desghidorah on Sun Mar 20, 2022 5:44 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Theory: Mothra caused SpaceGodzilla

Post by Voyager »

Very well done! I was intrigued by your explanation to the 30 year debate and now I have finally chosen a side.
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Re: Theory: Mothra caused SpaceGodzilla

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Voyager wrote: Sat Mar 19, 2022 9:24 pm Very well done! I was intrigued by your explanation to the 30 year debate and now I have finally chosen a side.
Always liked to speculate about the wider world of the Heisei canon, as it's the only Toho series with pretty tight continuity and consequences of one film nearly always impacting what came after. Only got that a rare few times elsewhere. Good to know I can make a good argument.
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Re: Theory: Mothra caused SpaceGodzilla

Post by edgaguirus »

It's a convincing argument, too.
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Re: Theory: Mothra caused SpaceGodzilla

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Honestly, great post. I had no idea that was the official explanation for Destoroyah. I think this argument is pretty convincing.

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Re: Theory: Mothra caused SpaceGodzilla

Post by LSD Jellyfish »

Good post. I think this is the most important part:
"But, this isn't the monster we got nor is it the film we got. We didn't get AstroGodzilla, we got SpaceGodzilla."
It's important to remember this, even outside this discussion. I'm guilty of doing it, but we have to remember that concept arts, scripts, etc... are not a replacement for the final product or what we see on the screen. If the movie states, with sufficient evidence that either Biollante or Mothra caused it, then we have to take it at face value.

Your point about the similarities in designs such as tusks is also relevant. Destoroyah and Battra even do have tusks! Definitely a case of choosing to believe in what you see because it makes sense rather than the whole picture.

I don't exactly think that it's Mothra for sure now, but you definitely swung the discussion back in the other direction. I think you also provide some good thematic and plot-oriented reasons as to why it would make sense to be Mothra's fault. Originally I thought Mothra causing it was a bit random, but your point about it having a sense of irony makes sense. It also made me realize that Mothra is traveling DEEP into space. I always wondered what Biollante went/did, but Mothra traveling for years makes more sense to how cells could eventually reach a black hole and produce a new horrible monster.

I also like your analysis of how Godzilla vs. Astrogodzilla was a sort of semi-remake of GTTHM. It's subtle (and unsubtle sometimes) but the Heisei series largely are reworkings of Showa films even beyond their superficial re-use of older monsters like KG, MG, or Mothra.
Last edited by LSD Jellyfish on Mon Mar 21, 2022 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Theory: Mothra caused SpaceGodzilla

Post by GodzillavsRayquaza »

This is an excellent write-up. I had definitely been on the side of it being Biollante before this, but this has changed my mind. Also interesting the insight it gives into the Futurians’ timeline as well.
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Re: Theory: Mothra caused SpaceGodzilla

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GodzillavsRayquaza wrote: Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:58 pm This is an excellent write-up. I had definitely been on the side of it being Biollante before this, but this has changed my mind. Also interesting the insight it gives into the Futurians’ timeline as well.
Thanks for the compliment. I too was very much of the opinion Biollante made the most sense and thought Mothra's tie seemed tacked on, but once I really started thinking about it and considered the Futurian timeline; it all just clicked.
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Re: Theory: Mothra caused SpaceGodzilla

Post by Chrispy_G »

I like this a lot. Before...my leaning towards Biollante was a bit more thematic. Gondo, who was killed in Biollante, has a sister who is a character in SpaceGodzilla...so the 'narrative tethers' felt right for Biollante.

Upon reading your post and further reflecting on the Heisei Series on a structural level...I actually really like the idea of it stemming from Mothra.

The plot/aftermath of Godzilla vs Biollante informs the beginnings of Godzilla vs King Ghidorah quite a bit. Then, after 'taking a movie off'....the Mecha King Ghidorah remains are what leads to the creation of MechaGodzilla, and those leftovers are repurposed into Moguera.

Godzilla vs Mothra is a bit of an odd-man-out in the lineup outside of the minimal Mothra cameo in SpaceGodzilla. Having Mothra be the accepted 'cause' of SpaceGodzilla sort of increases and enhances the place of that film in the line up...it makes it another chapter in the saga, and goes a bit towards unifying the franchise a bit more. None of them get left behind as sort of one-off adventures...they all impact the narrative.

For myself, when two options for a potential origin both have more or less 'equal' logical justification....then the tie breaker would be which explanation has more narrative meaning to the story.

SpaceGodzilla being an evolution of Biollante cells doesn't really add any meaning or have any kind of narrative angle. SpaceGodzilla being the direct result of Mothra going into Space after battling Godzilla DOES add wrinkles to the narrative.

I'm in camp Mothra.
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Re: Theory: Mothra caused SpaceGodzilla

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This is a well put together theory, could be possible always was annoyed we never got an answer to this.

Still I think it would lean to Biollante. The combination of Godzilla fragments along with a clone of Godzilla being the source just seems fitting for another Godzilla clone's origin. Not to mention I doubt they'd want to implicate a heroic Kaiju like Mothra with even an accidental creation of something like SpaceGodzilla.
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Re: Theory: Mothra caused SpaceGodzilla

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I always just sided with the Biollante theory considering the homages to Biollante in Space Godzilla's mouth and stomach.

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Re: Theory: Mothra caused SpaceGodzilla

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godjacob wrote: Thu Mar 24, 2022 6:53 pm This is a well put together theory, could be possible always was annoyed we never got an answer to this.

Still I think it would lean to Biollante. The combination of Godzilla fragments along with a clone of Godzilla being the source just seems fitting for another Godzilla clone's origin. Not to mention I doubt they'd want to implicate a heroic Kaiju like Mothra with even an accidental creation of something like SpaceGodzilla.
It does make more sense for a Godzilla clone to create another Godzilla clone, but SG was largely influenced by Super Godzilla, which had a similar mouth.

As for Mothra, having the benevolent kaiju create such a terror, even by accident, and relying on the very creature it had fought to protect the world from, adds some interesting depth to the story. It also takes away nothing from Mothra's image as hero. She immediately gets a message to Miki that something is going to happen. Even though Mothra can't return to Earth, she still takes responsibility for SG.
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Re: Theory: Mothra caused SpaceGodzilla

Post by LSD Jellyfish »

One thing I never heard discussed, is what if the supposed “Biollante traits”, just Godzilla traits?

Sure, Godzilla doesn’t have tusks, but neither do roses. Also:
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While obviously that’s Super Godzilla, it indicates it’s possible the tusks were inspired by this, not Biollantes.
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Re: Theory: Mothra caused SpaceGodzilla

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Re: Theory: Mothra caused SpaceGodzilla

Post by Dinoskell »

I never understood why Mothra couldn't carry Biollante cells. I figured Biollante cells were probably still in orbit and could be picked up on her way out.

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Re: Theory: Mothra caused SpaceGodzilla

Post by LegendZilla »

Oh great, another thread pointing out the many points of contention regarding the Heisei era. I'm just saying that soon enough, someone is gonna come by and invalidate any theory that could salvage these films, like how the Omni-Viewer did with GVKG and it's time travel-storyline.
Last edited by LegendZilla on Mon May 02, 2022 9:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Theory: Mothra caused SpaceGodzilla

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LegendZilla wrote: Mon May 02, 2022 8:51 pm Oh great, another thread pointing out the many points of contention regarding the Heisei era. I'm just saying that soon enough, someone is gonna come by and invalidate any theory that could salvage these films, like how the Omni-Viewer did with GVKG and it's time travel-storyline.
"Salvage them"? I'm not sure what you mean. They were entertaining monster movies when they were released, they are entertaining monster movies now, and they will remain entertaining monster movies in the future. No theory about them, nor counterpoint made against any theory, is going to alter their basic value as cinema.
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Re: Theory: Mothra caused SpaceGodzilla

Post by Legion1979 »

..........

I know there's this belief that people who don't like the Heisei films are big mean haters with their their heads up their asses regarding Showa elitism but...maybe we wouldn't be where we are if Heisei fans didn't feel this burning need to "save" these movies from criticism.

I'm with eabaker. "Salvage"? And who the hell is this Omni-Viewer person and why is their opinion important? Seriously, why do some of you (or is it just Voyager and Legend?) get so hung up on what nobodies on YouTube or Reddit think?
Last edited by Legion1979 on Tue May 03, 2022 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Theory: Mothra caused SpaceGodzilla

Post by Gerdzerl »

LSD Jellyfish wrote: Sun Mar 27, 2022 4:51 am One thing I never heard discussed, is what if the supposed “Biollante traits”, just Godzilla traits?

Sure, Godzilla doesn’t have tusks, but neither do roses. Also:

While obviously that’s Super Godzilla, it indicates it’s possible the tusks were inspired by this, not Biollantes.
This makes me wonder if somewhere down Godzilla's evolutionary line, his distant ancestors had cheek tusks, and lost them over time, and Biollante having them is simply a case of atavism.

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Re: Theory: Mothra caused SpaceGodzilla

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Gerdzerl wrote: Tue May 03, 2022 7:12 pm This makes me wonder if somewhere down Godzilla's evolutionary line, his distant ancestors had cheek tusks, and lost them over time, and Biollante having them is simply a case of atavism.
Reminds me of this fan art where some of Godzilla's ancestors have tusks.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8a/be/47 ... a03653.jpg
Last edited by Eel221 on Tue May 03, 2022 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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