A New Entry into the Heisei Timeline..how would you?

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A New Entry into the Heisei Timeline..how would you?

Post by imposterzilla »

So Tanaka wanted to do a BioGodzilla entry, but what if we did get a new entry into the timeline. How would you do it? I would love to see maybe Baraguiras, the fallout from Gforce being bankrupt, and maybe another appearance by a stronger King Ghidorah

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Re: A New Entry into the Heisei Timeline..how would you?

Post by LegendZilla »

I would definitely recycle the whole Return of King Ghidorah storyline in which another Ghidorah comes from the depths of space and I would tie it in with the asteroid sub-plot from Godzilla Vs Mothra.
Last edited by LegendZilla on Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: A New Entry into the Heisei Timeline..how would you?

Post by Gigantis »

I'd think i just have it be back to basics. Grown Junior going up against not some big world ending threat, just another kaiju that threatens himself.
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Re: A New Entry into the Heisei Timeline..how would you?

Post by mikelcho »

I'd have had a Heisei version of Anguirus fight Godzilla III (what Junior had become at the end of Destoroyah), then have them fight a bigger threat to Japan, each for reasons of his own. After that, they'd both go their separate ways, and that'd be the end of that.

If that'd actually happened in real life, then the Big Five (Godzilla, Rodan, Mothra, King Ghidorah and Mechagodzilla) would've definitely become the Big Six (Godzilla, Rodan, Mothra, Anguirus, King Ghidorah and Mechagodzilla), the way I've always considered it to be in the first place.
Last edited by mikelcho on Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:58 am, edited 8 times in total.

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Re: A New Entry into the Heisei Timeline..how would you?

Post by BlankAccount »

Gigantis wrote:I'd think i just have it be back to basics. Grown Junior going up against not some big world ending threat, just another kaiju that threatens himself.
And the country.

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Re: A New Entry into the Heisei Timeline..how would you?

Post by LegendZilla »

Miki Saegusa's daughter (and possibly grandchild as well) should play a role.

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Re: A New Entry into the Heisei Timeline..how would you?

Post by Terasawa »

Megumi Odaka is 48. Why does it have to be her offspring playing a role?
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Re: A New Entry into the Heisei Timeline..how would you?

Post by Voyager »

mikelcho wrote:I'd have had a Heisei version of Anguirus fight Godzilla II (what Junior had become at the end of Destoroyah), then have them fight a bigger threat to Japan, each for reasons of his own. After that, they'd both go their separate ways, and that'd be the end of that.

If that'd actually happened in real life, then the Big Five (Godzilla, Rodan, Mothra, King Ghidorah and Mechagodzilla) would've definitely become the Big Six (Godzilla, Rodan, Mothra, Anguirus, King Ghidorah and Mechagodzilla), the way I've always considered it to be in the first place.
Wouldn’t Junior be Godzilla III?

Also, Megumi Osaka reprising her role would be good.
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Re: A New Entry into the Heisei Timeline..how would you?

Post by LegendZilla »

Terasawa wrote:Megumi Odaka is 48. Why does it have to be her offspring playing a role?
It will involve both her and her offspring.

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Re: A New Entry into the Heisei Timeline..how would you?

Post by mikelcho »

VoyagerGoji wrote:
mikelcho wrote:I'd have had a Heisei version of Anguirus fight Godzilla II (what Junior had become at the end of Destoroyah), then have them fight a bigger threat to Japan, each for reasons of his own. After that, they'd both go their separate ways, and that'd be the end of that.

If that'd actually happened in real life, then the Big Five (Godzilla, Rodan, Mothra, King Ghidorah and Mechagodzilla) would've definitely become the Big Six (Godzilla, Rodan, Mothra, Anguirus, King Ghidorah and Mechagodzilla), the way I've always considered it to be in the first place.
Wouldn’t Junior be Godzilla III?

Also, Megumi Osaka reprising her role would be good.
You're right; fixed.

I forgot there were two Godzillas in this storyline also, the one from 1954 and the one from 1984-94 (I think that's right, but I'm not sure. Is it?).

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Re: A New Entry into the Heisei Timeline..how would you?

Post by Terasawa »

mikelcho wrote:
VoyagerGoji wrote: Wouldn’t Junior be Godzilla III?
You're right; fixed.

I forgot there were two Godzillas in this storyline also, the one from 1954 and the one from 1984-94 (I think that's right, but I'm not sure. Is it?).
  1. 1. 1954 Godzilla
    2. 1984-1992 Godzilla
    • 2b. 1992-1996 Godzilla (For lack of a better term, the "alternate reality" version of the previous which was created by the Futurians' meddling in time.)
    3. The fully mutated version of Godzilla Junior.
Last edited by Terasawa on Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A New Entry into the Heisei Timeline..how would you?

Post by LegendZilla »

Terasawa wrote:
mikelcho wrote:
VoyagerGoji wrote: Wouldn’t Junior be Godzilla III?
You're right; fixed.

I forgot there were two Godzillas in this storyline also, the one from 1954 and the one from 1984-94 (I think that's right, but I'm not sure. Is it?).
  1. 1. 1954 Godzilla
    2. 1984-1992 Godzilla
    • 2b. 1992-1996 Godzilla (For lack of a better term, the "alternate reality" version of the previous which was created by the Futurians' meddling in time.)
    3. The fully mutated version of Godzilla Junior.
How do you know as to whether or not Godzilla 2 existing was due to the Futurians's meddling in the first place?

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Re: A New Entry into the Heisei Timeline..how would you?

Post by Terasawa »

LegendZilla wrote:
Terasawa wrote:
  1. 1. 1954 Godzilla
    2. 1984-1992 Godzilla
    • 2b. 1992-1996 Godzilla (For lack of a better term, the "alternate reality" version of the previous which was created by the Futurians' meddling in time.)
    3. The fully mutated version of Godzilla Junior.
How do you know as to whether or not Godzilla 2 existing was due to the Futurians's meddling in the first place?
That deserves a very lengthy response, not only because I have to explain it but also because I have to refute the popular SciFi Japan theory. Suffice to say, this is not the thread to do so. Somewhere in this forum is a thread about the film's time travel, and in that thread is a 2019 post by Zarm that thoroughly explains why that theory is incorrect. It's also been discussed in the talkback thread, there by myself and eabaker and others.

But the short(er) answer to your question is, because the characters in the film say so, and their observations don't contradict what we the audience see:
  • At the beginning of the film we're told that Godzilla had been successfully inundated by ANEB and had been immobile off the coast of Japan for 1000 days.
  • We see the events of time travel, including the teleportation of the dinosaur to the Bering Sea and the placement of the Dorats on the island.
  • We're told that the JSDF had observed the disappearance of Godzilla from the Sea of Japan once the time travelers returned to 1992.
  • We're told that King Ghidorah then suddenly appeared over the Pacific at the same time (confirming that the birth of King Ghidorah at Bikini replaced the birth of Godzilla at same).
  • Characters call the Bering Sea Godzilla the "second Godzilla", and note that this one is bigger because it was irradiated by both more modern nuclear weapons (referring to the 1970s Soviet sub) and the energy from the Teiyo Group sub.
  • Glenchiko notes that the Futurians had already "gotten rid of one" Godzilla, only for another to appear.
The SciFi Japan explanation requires the acceptance of a lot of coincidences and content from other films despite sufficient explanations to the contrary in Godzilla vs King Ghidorah itself. The film presents a scenario not where the Futurians create the 1984-1992 Godzilla, but one where they successfully erase that creature from the present (1992) by accidentally giving it another origin in the Bering Sea.
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Re: A New Entry into the Heisei Timeline..how would you?

Post by SUPERTOHOREMIX »


This is my answer.

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Re: A New Entry into the Heisei Timeline..how would you?

Post by Dinosaur1993! »

I would have Jr face King Kong, Anguirus, Gigan, King Ghidorah, and Bagan

Maybe Kong and Jr fight a few times, each win and lose a battle before having one final fight that ends in a draw. Afterward, they become allies and fight other monsters together.

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Re: A New Entry into the Heisei Timeline..how would you?

Post by LegendZilla »

I would give Miki Saegusa a daughter who wants a regular life with nothing to do with Godzilla, only to be tossed in to it all.

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Re: A New Entry into the Heisei Timeline..how would you?

Post by miguelnuva »

Jr teams up with Mothra Biollante and Angurius Hound to battle Emperor Ghidorah.

Either all monsters die expect Jr who goes into the Sea or Ghidorah is killed and the 4 monster become the protectors of the world setting up Emi's future.

Added in 2 minutes 52 seconds:
Terasawa wrote:
LegendZilla wrote:
Terasawa wrote:
  1. 1. 1954 Godzilla
    2. 1984-1992 Godzilla
    • 2b. 1992-1996 Godzilla (For lack of a better term, the "alternate reality" version of the previous which was created by the Futurians' meddling in time.)
    3. The fully mutated version of Godzilla Junior.
How do you know as to whether or not Godzilla 2 existing was due to the Futurians's meddling in the first place?
That deserves a very lengthy response, not only because I have to explain it but also because I have to refute the popular SciFi Japan theory. Suffice to say, this is not the thread to do so. Somewhere in this forum is a thread about the film's time travel, and in that thread is a 2019 post by Zarm that thoroughly explains why that theory is incorrect. It's also been discussed in the talkback thread, there by myself and eabaker and others.

But the short(er) answer to your question is, because the characters in the film say so, and their observations don't contradict what we the audience see:
  • At the beginning of the film we're told that Godzilla had been successfully inundated by ANEB and had been immobile off the coast of Japan for 1000 days.
  • We see the events of time travel, including the teleportation of the dinosaur to the Bering Sea and the placement of the Dorats on the island.
  • We're told that the JSDF had observed the disappearance of Godzilla from the Sea of Japan once the time travelers returned to 1992.
  • We're told that King Ghidorah then suddenly appeared over the Pacific at the same time (confirming that the birth of King Ghidorah at Bikini replaced the birth of Godzilla at same).
  • Characters call the Bering Sea Godzilla the "second Godzilla", and note that this one is bigger because it was irradiated by both more modern nuclear weapons (referring to the 1970s Soviet sub) and the energy from the Teiyo Group sub.
  • Glenchiko notes that the Futurians had already "gotten rid of one" Godzilla, only for another to appear.
The SciFi Japan explanation requires the acceptance of a lot of coincidences and content from other films despite sufficient explanations to the contrary in Godzilla vs King Ghidorah itself. The film presents a scenario not where the Futurians create the 1984-1992 Godzilla, but one where they successfully erase that creature from the present (1992) by accidentally giving it another origin in the Bering Sea.
Heisei Godzilla couldn't be tracked underwater when he was said to have dissapeared.

The Futurians confused Godzilla 54 waking up with Heisei Godzilla being created is what always made sense to me. Everyone remembers the events of the first two films and Biollante is one of the origins for SpaceG.

Heisei Godzilla never disappeared.
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Re: A New Entry into the Heisei Timeline..how would you?

Post by Terasawa »

miguelnuva wrote:Heisei Godzilla couldn't be tracked underwater when he was said to have dissapeared.

The Futurians confused Godzilla 54 waking up with Heisei Godzilla being created is what always made sense to me. Everyone remembers the events of the first two films and Biollante is one of the origins for SpaceG.

Heisei Godzilla never disappeared.
Nope.
  • July 6, 1992, 1430: The Futurians take a Japanese group back to Lagos Island during WWII.
  • February 6/7, 1944: Discover Godzillasaurus on Lagos. They jump ahead a week and transport the dinosaur to the Bering Sea.
  • July 6, 1992, 1500: Time travelers return to present + 30 minutes. Godzilla has disappeared. He did not take an underwater hike from the Sea of Japan to the Bering Sea. The film establishes that (more below).
The Futurians were successful in erasing Godzilla -- just not from history. This is the part where viewers get the most confused, because they try to apply "conventional" rules of time travel to the film when in fact it operates under its own unique time travel mechanics. The effect of moving the Godzillasaurus in 1944 does not erase the events of The Return of Godzilla, Godzilla vs Biollante, or even the first act of Godzilla vs King Ghidorah. Instead, that Godzilla is erased from the present-day, as soon as the time travelers return to 1992. This is confirmed by Wilson: when the Lagos expedition returns, he confirms that Godzilla is gone, saying something like "The JSDF just noted that he disappeared." This is why people still remember Godzilla, even though he's said to have been erased. The past still exists, as do memories. The present (from the perspective of when the time travel expedition departed for 1944) is the only thing that was changed.

You, and Keith Aiken, are asking the viewer to accept a huge coincidence, that Godzilla was compelled to travel thousands of miles underwater --without any good reason-- to the Bering Sea (which just so happens to be the exact place the dinosaur was transported). This is hard to swallow, considering the film establishes right up front that the ANEB was successful and that Godzilla had been motionless for 1000 days since GvB.

The other huge flaw in Keith's explanation is that it directly negates what the characters have to say. Kazuki Omori didn't script all those lines for no reason. When Wilson says the JSDF discovered that Godzilla disappeared he was neither lying or misinformed. (That would be a huge cheat to the audience.) When Wilson, Glenchiko, Fujio, and Dobashi all talk of Godzilla being "re-created", they're not talking figuratively. Godzilla was erased from 1992, but the placement of the dinosaur in the Bering Sea allowed it to be mutated by the radioactive waste from a downed Soviet Sub. This reborn Godzilla and the 1984-1992 Godzilla were both mutated from the same dinosaur; the nature of their respective mutations makes them different versions of the same animal, which was the point I was making in the post you quoted.

This is how the film lays it out. Honestly, please don't bother trying to apply the Keith Aiken logic as a rebuttal. God bless him for trying, but his "stable time loop" idea goes completely against the film's own conception of time travel.
Last edited by Terasawa on Wed Oct 14, 2020 8:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A New Entry into the Heisei Timeline..how would you?

Post by miguelnuva »

Terasawa wrote:
miguelnuva wrote:Heisei Godzilla couldn't be tracked underwater when he was said to have dissapeared.

The Futurians confused Godzilla 54 waking up with Heisei Godzilla being created is what always made sense to me. Everyone remembers the events of the first two films and Biollante is one of the origins for SpaceG.

Heisei Godzilla never disappeared.
Snip
Your explanation is good and I see the points you made but at the same time It is established that Japan can only track Godzilla underwater when he stops moving. That was a discovery in Biollante.

Time travel can't work like that. You can't move Godzilla from histroy, reverse his transformation and still have the two previous films take place. That's going to be a plot hole, unless the Dinosaur was moved into 1992 which isn't what happened.

Miki also senses Godzilla moving underwater and we see him moving when he attacks the sub. He is likely sleeping trying at the start of the film and moves to the bering sea then same reason he does so in Destroyer.

I'll agree to disagree and maybe your interpretation is the correct way to view the film but will all the talk about inevitability I take it as Godzilla was never erased.
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Re: A New Entry into the Heisei Timeline..how would you?

Post by Terasawa »

miguelnuva wrote:Time travel can't work like that.
Time travel can't work, period. So Kazuki Omori invented his own version of time travel, independent from the "rules" established in popular fiction. In fact, there's a line in the Japanese version in which Glenchiko says "The time warp theory differs from movies." (タイムワープ理論では映画と違って) The English dub changes that line to something irrelevant. I can't access the Sony Blu-ray right now but my memory is that it's brushed aside in the English subtitles there, too.

Omori's time travel ideas might not seem as plausible as others' popular concepts do, but the point is we shouldn't try to apply a foreign understanding of time travel to the film when Omori deliberately presents a version of the concept with contrasting rules.

Tom Miller's "Chronology and Conundrums: Godzilla" in G-Fan #9, which I've previously quoted here offers the best explanation I've encountered:
It is important to remember that time travel doesn't exist; it is probably impossible even in theory due to the severe violations of cause and effect inherent in the concept. Despite (or because of) this, time travel has always been extremely popular in science fiction and fantasy. As a result of the innumerable manifestations of time travel in film and print, preconceived notions of it have developed. This is a mistake. There are no "laws" of time travel other than those created, explicitly or implicitly, by the author of the given story. Therefore, the approach in Godzilla vs King Ghidora cannot be: "How does this agree with what is known about time travel?" (since nothing is known about time travel). Rather, the question is: "What can be deduced about time travel from what the movie shows?" In other words, the facts mustn't conform to the theory, rather the theory must conform to the facts. Approached in this manner, it is easier to resolve the questions raised by Godzilla vs King Ghidora.

The primary lesson is that the past cannot be altered but the future can be changed by time travel to the past. What does this mean? When the time travellers removed the Godzillasaurus from Lagos Island in 1944, their own past was not altered. The result of their effort did not become manifest until their own time, the time they left Japan, 1992. This is why memories of Godzilla persisted and nothing that had happened prior to their time voyage was altered upon their return.

This is understandable by looking at cause and effect. What's past is past. The effect, Godzilla's removal to the Bering Sea, cannot occur until after the cause, the Futurians' departure in 1992. The same applies to King Ghidora. One might expect that King Ghidora had been ravaging Japan ever since he had been created by the A-bomb test near Lagos Island, but he hadn't. Time travel doesn't work that way in the movie. King Ghidora appears in 1992, when the time travellers return. Again, effect must follow cause. The results of changes to the past occur in the future.

The next lesson is: changes made via time travel affect only those persons and things directly altered, there is no ripple effect. The ripple effect can be explained this way: If Godzilla had never appeared, Japan would be a very different place. People would be alive who had been killed. People would have been born who were not because their parents' lives were affected by Godzilla. People who were born because of Godzilla's appearance (indirectly, for example those whose parents met at a shelter during Godzilla's attack) would not have been born. None of these changes are evident when the time travellers return. Only Godzilla is gone because he was directly affected by their action.
It can thus be concluded that all of Godzilla's prior appearances were not and could not be erased by time travel. Biollante did exist and Dr. Shiragami is still dead. People retain their memories of the past because their past has not been changed, only their present (and future). It isn't necessary to go into the mechanics of this - the inventors of the time machine may themselves not be fully aware of how it works. Nor should speculation go too far beyond what is known from occurances in the movie. It can be supposed that if the travellers remained behind in 1944, they would have been in an alternate universe created by their own actions, from which they could return to their own time.
The problem with other interpretations is that it requires too much needless conjecture from the viewer. You can interpret Godzilla's disappearance from 1992 as the JSDF losing track of him underwater (taken from Godzilla vs Biollante; that doesn't happen elsewhere in GvKG or Omori's later Godzilla scripts) and rationalize his sudden movement to the Bering Sea using an explanation from a later film, but those are merely suppositions in place of the film's own established evidence.
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