Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

For discussion of Toho produced and distributed films or shows released from 1980 up to 1998 (includes Gamera 3)
Post Reply
User avatar
imposterzilla
G-Force Personnel
Posts: 657
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:01 am

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Post by imposterzilla »

Originally didn't they plan on using insectoid aliens till they realized it would cost too much in the earlier drafts?

User avatar
LSD Jellyfish
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 14254
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:57 pm

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Post by LSD Jellyfish »

eabaker wrote:
Terasawa wrote:Speaking of parallels, I appreciate the way Omori cleverly ties together the origins of modern (1992) Japan and Godzilla. In this film Godzilla is basically a metaphor for Japan's post-war rebirth and especially its meteoric growth as a capitalist society, which Omori definitely doesn't celebrate. Thematically it's one of the most ambitious Godzilla movies, maybe the most ambitious. There's a lot going on under the surface.
Yup. This is what I really love so much about the movie. Shindo and Godzilla are both honorable characters when they survive WW2 together, but in the aftermath of the war - one under the influence of American weapons, the other under the influence of American economics - both essentially grow into monsters.

After Serizawa, Shindo is probably my favorite character in the entire series.
I'm not going to justify Japan's colonial attitudes, nationalism, or anything involved in world war 2, but one thing this recent viewing made me realize was possible allusions to Matthew Perry and early Western interference with Japan. I think it's similar to the involvement and fear of aliens and foreign invasion, which has always been a big sci-fi trope in both western and Japanese media. (IOTAM, Mysterians, both come to mind).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakumatsu ... _(1853–54)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakumatsu ... upon_Japan

Switching topics, one thing I want to finally get into is the "Terminator" rip-off aspects. A lot of people criticize it and call it a rip-off, and end their criticism there. Certainly later entries would be more direct, with the Indiana Jones and Alien stuff, but GVKG91 just seems to be one big homage to a LOT of sci-fi films. Most importantly, the "Terminator Scene" is more of a direct reference/mash up of Terminator and Testuo the iron man:


A very similar technique/framing is used to propel both M-11 and Tetsuo forward during the chase. Even very similar music is used as well.

Obviously we then have the reference to ET and Spielberg. Then, the film also has some clear inspirations from IOTAM and The Mysterians, with how the UFO appears and the military lines up, and sends a few people forward.

But also, there's a reference to 2001 a Space Oddessy, During the scene where everyone time travels, the effect used to go back in time is similar to that.

Not to mention there's a lot of similarities between M-11 and Bishop from Alien and the Simulacra from Blade Runner. I can't find exact shots, but Emi talking and rebooting M-11 is very reminiscent of a scene between Ridley and Bishop in either Alien or Aliens.

Considering that most of these references are short, the film clearly has a lot to say and do on it's own, and Terasawa himself keeps getting pressured into being a sci-fi story writer, I think this is less of a "rip-off" and a homage.
Last edited by LSD Jellyfish on Thu May 21, 2020 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Spirit Ghidorah 2010 wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:54 pm Anno-san pleasures me more than Yamasaki-san.

User avatar
eabaker
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 13758
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:16 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Post by eabaker »

^Great stuff, LSD! I'd never made the Tetsuo connection, but it's crystal clear now that you point it out! And your point about Teresawa's resistance to being a sci-fi writer (and the line Teresawa-the-TK-user pointed out about time travel not working like it does in the movies) definitely points to the movie quite consciously engaging with genre tropes.
Tokyo, a smoldering memorial to the unknown, an unknown which at this very moment still prevails and could at any time lash out with its terrible destruction anywhere else in the world.

User avatar
Terasawa
Xilien Halfling
Posts: 5841
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:06 am

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Post by Terasawa »

I've always thought the most shameless rip off in the movie wasn't the "Terminator" stuff but rather the lines

M-11: "Go ahead!"
Terasawa: "Make my day!"
寺沢. He/him/his, etc.

User avatar
Voyager
Keizer
Posts: 7831
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:34 pm
Location: On a boat

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Post by Voyager »

I skreeonking love this film. Favorite of the Heisei Era by far. First Godzilla movie I ever saw too.
Image
For Emperor and Empire!

User avatar
eabaker
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 13758
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:16 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Post by eabaker »

Terasawa wrote:I've always thought the most shameless rip off in the movie wasn't the "Terminator" stuff but rather the lines

M-11: "Go ahead!"
Terasawa: "Make my day!"
Although people actually used to quote that so much, it's perfectly plausible to suggest that when M-11 said "Go ahead," Teresawa (not you, the movie character) just felt compelled to complete the reference.
Tokyo, a smoldering memorial to the unknown, an unknown which at this very moment still prevails and could at any time lash out with its terrible destruction anywhere else in the world.

User avatar
LSD Jellyfish
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 14254
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:57 pm

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Post by LSD Jellyfish »

eabaker wrote:
Terasawa wrote:I've always thought the most shameless rip off in the movie wasn't the "Terminator" stuff but rather the lines

M-11: "Go ahead!"
Terasawa: "Make my day!"
Although people actually used to quote that so much, it's perfectly plausible to suggest that when M-11 said "Go ahead," Teresawa (not you, the movie character) just felt compelled to complete the reference.
I have no substantial evidence to prove this, but I also think the amount of references to Western, specifically American action and sci-fi films are also a subtle way to buffer any possibly perceived anti-American readings of the film. Of course we have scenes of United States soldiers getting shot, but with all the references to foreign media and clear inspiration, it becomes clear that it isn't saying,"everything foreign is inherently bad" or undesirable.
Last edited by LSD Jellyfish on Thu May 21, 2020 4:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Spirit Ghidorah 2010 wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:54 pm Anno-san pleasures me more than Yamasaki-san.

User avatar
eabaker
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 13758
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:16 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Post by eabaker »

LSD Jellyfish wrote:
eabaker wrote:
Terasawa wrote:I've always thought the most shameless rip off in the movie wasn't the "Terminator" stuff but rather the lines

M-11: "Go ahead!"
Terasawa: "Make my day!"
Although people actually used to quote that so much, it's perfectly plausible to suggest that when M-11 said "Go ahead," Teresawa (not you, the movie character) just felt compelled to complete the reference.
I have no substantial evidence to prove this, but I also think the amount of references to Western, specifically American action and sci-fi films are also a subtle way to buffer any possibly perceived anti-American readings of the film. Of course we have scenes of United States soldiers getting shot, but with all the references to foreign media and clear inspiration, it becomes clear that it isn't saying,"everything foreign is inherently bad" or undesirable.
Oh! That's an interesting perspective!
Tokyo, a smoldering memorial to the unknown, an unknown which at this very moment still prevails and could at any time lash out with its terrible destruction anywhere else in the world.

User avatar
Terasawa
Xilien Halfling
Posts: 5841
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:06 am

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Post by Terasawa »

This movie isn't anti-American, it's anti-capitalism. Godzillasaurus doesn't target U.S. marines: it may be an awkward sequence but I think it's clear that the intent is the Japanese soldiers wisely get the fuck away while the marines shift their focus to the dinosaur. The Japanese garrison then regards it as its savior when, in reality, it was merely defending itself from those that challenged it.
寺沢. He/him/his, etc.

User avatar
eabaker
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 13758
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:16 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Post by eabaker »

Terasawa wrote:This movie isn't anti-American, it's anti-capitalism. Godzillasaurus doesn't target U.S. marines: it may be an awkward sequence but I think it's clear that the intent is the Japanese soldiers wisely get the fuck away while the marines shift their focus to the dinosaur. The Japanese garrison then regards it as its savior when, in reality, it was merely defending itself from those that challenged it.
Yeah, the anti-American thing is based on a very, very shallow interpretation of the movie, and one that I usually suspect is approached in bad-faith. The movie is ultimately a condemnation of Japanese economic practices at least as much as it even is of capitalism per se.

I've seen some people argue that it was arrogant to suppose that Japan would achieve the kind of economic power that the plot points to, but, I mean, it wouldn't really be much of a cautionary tale if it didn't posit something of a worst case scenario.
Tokyo, a smoldering memorial to the unknown, an unknown which at this very moment still prevails and could at any time lash out with its terrible destruction anywhere else in the world.

Online
User avatar
Spuro
Keizer
Posts: 9534
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2011 10:34 pm
Location: Monster Island

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Post by Spuro »

Terasawa wrote:This movie isn't anti-American, it's anti-capitalism.
If anything it's really pro-capitalism. The movie's about how Japan's ascent to economic power over the world is inevitable, with the battle between Godzilla and King Ghidorah representing Japan's eventual victory over the West. It's a propaganda piece.
eabaker wrote: You can't parse duende.
Breakdown wrote: HP Lovecraft's cat should be the ultimate villain of the MonsterVerse.

User avatar
eabaker
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 13758
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:16 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Post by eabaker »

Kaiju-King42 wrote:
Terasawa wrote:This movie isn't anti-American, it's anti-capitalism.
If anything it's really pro-capitalism. The movie's about how Japan's ascent to economic power over the world is inevitable, with the battle between Godzilla and King Ghidorah representing Japan's eventual victory over the West. It's a propaganda piece.
Weird take, considering that:

a.) Godzilla's - and Japan's - transformation into a powerful destructive force is presented as a tragedy and a betrayal

b.) The second version of the future presented is one in which Japan has been destroyed

c.) King Ghidorah is revived as Mecha-King Ghidorah and defeats Godzilla (leading to a presumed third future, in which there is still an opportunity for the Japanese to make different choices that will lead to neither global conquest nor annihilation)
Tokyo, a smoldering memorial to the unknown, an unknown which at this very moment still prevails and could at any time lash out with its terrible destruction anywhere else in the world.

User avatar
Terasawa
Xilien Halfling
Posts: 5841
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:06 am

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Post by Terasawa »

Isn't the belief that "it's arrogant for Japan to envision itself as an economic superpower" also anti-Japanese? :P
Kaiju-King42 wrote:
Terasawa wrote:This movie isn't anti-American, it's anti-capitalism.
If anything it's really pro-capitalism. The movie's about how Japan's ascent to economic power over the world is inevitable, with the battle between Godzilla and King Ghidorah representing Japan's eventual victory over the West. It's a propaganda piece.
Hard disagree, especially that it's propaganda. The film posits that a superpower Japan is a bad thing for the world: even the Japanese Emmy is against the power her nation attains. And anyway, the future the Futurians come from is rewritten once Godzilla is awakened. Emmy says "Godzilla never did revive", which is later contradicted in the movie when he is in fact revived and trashes Japan from Sapporo to Tokyo (725 miles). She also cites Shindo's Teiyo group as one of the largest corporations in the world by the 23rd century, even though Shindo and his headquarters are annihilated by Godzilla in 1992. That Japan evolves into a massive economic superpower is not a given by the film's conclusion.
寺沢. He/him/his, etc.

User avatar
LSD Jellyfish
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 14254
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2015 11:57 pm

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Post by LSD Jellyfish »

It's important to note when this film came out as well, the early 90's. During that time Japan became mega-rich and actually was on a path to being a world power. Of course, the bubble bursted. Despite still having a lot of money, and a lot of good stuff, it would come off as more nationalistic if they had something like that currently as it's a bit laughable.

I think it's also worth noting how dubs/subs/individual interpretations alter the whole Godzillasaurus sequence. In certain subs (I believe on the Sony one) and dubs (off the top of my head) Terasawa says "Awesome" or something very similar. In Japanese he says something similar to Sugoi (I actually don't remember exactly what off the top of my head). Certain versions of the film make it seem like he's saying awesome or incredible to people being killed, but the Japanese dialogue indicates that he's more impressed by the Godzillasaurus existing. In context it makes sense, he had this idea of the true origin of Godzilla and was right.

Also, going back into the discussion of capitalism, I find it interesting that Terasawa gets a lot of little character moments regarding his books. He asks if his book is a best seller and a lot of other little bits like that. Also very minor, but I thought the relationship with the woman (the publisher?) while minor, was a nice detail that didn't overstay it's welcome.
Spirit Ghidorah 2010 wrote: Sun Dec 03, 2023 4:54 pm Anno-san pleasures me more than Yamasaki-san.

User avatar
szmigiel
G-Force Personnel
Posts: 697
Joined: Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:54 am
Location: Detroit
Contact:

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Post by szmigiel »

It is a shame the time travel is handled so badly in this film, it has a lot of good ideas to explore. But it always comes down to the paradoxes the time travel causes, and not the themes that are being explored. If you try to ignore the time paradoxes while debating the film, someone will always bring up that the time travel is at the core of the film, and can't be pushed aside. After this the Heisei films might want to explore bigger themes, but always falls flat trying to accomplish them.

User avatar
eabaker
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 13758
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:16 pm
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Post by eabaker »

Honestly, the time travel paradoxes never bother me. The time travel serves the dramatic function the movie requires of it, and in the moment everything feels natural. The problems strike me mostly as fridge logic.
Tokyo, a smoldering memorial to the unknown, an unknown which at this very moment still prevails and could at any time lash out with its terrible destruction anywhere else in the world.

User avatar
HedorahIsBestGirl
Gotengo Officer
Posts: 1774
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:17 am

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Post by HedorahIsBestGirl »

Alright gents, strap yourselves in for a long post. Or don't. No one has to read this shit.

Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah is perhaps the Godzilla film that I have the most conflicted relationship with. Like many of the Heisei films, it's one I loved as a kid but hold little love for now. Ironically, Godzilla vs. Biollante is the opposite; I hated it as a kid (was my least favorite Godzilla film for several years) but I've developed a somewhat grudging respect for it during the past five years. But I already made a whole thread about Biollante, so let's talk KG.

Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah was one of the first five or six Godzilla films I ever owned, and the third Heisei film I got my hands on. My father bought me the VHS tape as a birthday present when I was six, just three months after I got the Mothra and Space Godzilla VHS tapes for Christmas. Upon my first viewing, I liked it a lot, even more so than GT3HM or Monster Zero (the latter film is another I didn't like as a kid). It was often one of the first Godzilla films I'd show to friends along with Mothra vs. Godzilla, Godzilla vs. Hedorah and Godzilla 2000 (other films I owned on VHS). When I was eight, my family moved cross-country and many of our VHS tapes were misplaced for a long time, KG among them. It finally resurfaced about a year later and I watched it again. This, time I saw things a little differently. Honestly, I don't know if I'd grown tired of the film from watching it like twelve times in two years or if I had just started to play closer attention to movies and actually start to notice problems with them; this was around the time I took a more active interest in film. Since then, it hasn't been one of the Godzilla films I revisit regularly. I only watch it once every few years, and my opinion hasn't improved. If anything, it's gotten worse...

But let's start positive, shall we? There are still some things I like about this film. I'm a huge Ifukube junkie and I think the score for this movie blows the first two Heisei films' scores out of the water. After Destoroyah and maybe Mechagodzilla, it's my favorite score of the Heisei films and one of my favorites in the whole series. I also think this might be the very best Godzilla has ever looked. BioGoji marked an arguable zenith for the character's design, and I feel GhidoGoji's changes may have improved the suit ever-so-slightly for the better. Speaking of sexy looking kaiju, this is the best King Ghidorah has ever looked, period. I also prefer his roar to the Showa version's cackles, which is probably an unpopular opinion. Mecha King Ghidorah is pretty awesome, too, and his eleventh hour entrance into the film is pretty spectacular. I remember replaying that scene the first time I watched it, and bought an MKG Trendmasters figure at my local KB Toys soon after. There is some excellent effects work in this film. Most of the miniatures are excellent, with the countryside set where Godzilla and Ghidorah have their first battle being a particular standout. Some of the camerawork is impressive, too. Godzilla's "reunion" with Shindo and King Ghidorah's entrance during both of his fights with Godzilla are particularly memorable. The animation of the energy beams is top notch, too. Thematically, the film is deeper than most of the Heisei crowd and it's meditation on the dangers of Japan becoming a global superpower is tied well into Godzilla's own post-war transformation; unfortunately, I think a lot of this gets muddled by the confusing plot. And while I don't like the plot of this film, the narrative is certainly ambitious, more-so than any other Godzilla film would be for the next decade. I give it points for trying.

Now onto the negatives. First, the plot is just a fucking mess. I'm sorry, but it really is. It's convoluted beyond comprehension. The film is very unclear about the events that transpire as a result of the time travel. I think I get it all now, but I still see people arguing about whether or not the Godzillasaurus on Lagos and the monster that kills Shindo are one and the same. I'll admit to some personal bias, because I'm generally not fond of time travel plots, but I think even in the realm of that sub-genre, this is one of the more confusing films. But, even leaving my confusion and irritation with time travel out of things, the plot still doesn't make much sense. Why do the Futurians go back to 90s Japan and bring guests along when they go back to, supposedly, get rid of Godzilla? Why don't they just go back to 1944, make King Ghidorah, and go along with their plan instead of going with the false pretense of helping Japan? The simple answer is that otherwise the main characters would have no reason to exist and no way to stop them, but from a logical standpoint it makes no sense and that bothers me. And going back to time travel nonsense for a minute, if Emmy can go back and forth in time as she pleases, how come she doesn't bring in MKG until after Godzilla's trashed Tokyo instead of immediately using it to take down Godzilla after he beats Ghidorah the first time? Some are willing to excuse these plot holes, but they irk me.

Second, I don't like the characters in this film and I feel they set the standard for the sub-par characters of the 90s Godzilla films. Terasawa always just comes off as a douche to me. It's something about Kosuke Toyohara's mannerisms and the way he delivers his lines. He's a bit more developed than Dr. whatshisname from Biollante, at least, but that's not saying much. Emmy is one of my least favorite female leads in the whole franchise. The film tries to make her sympathetic, but let's not forget that she knowingly created King Ghidorah and surely knew what the other Futurians planned to do with him. Some have argued she wasn't filled in on Chuck Wilson's full plan but even if this is true, didn't she think it was sketchy leaving three genetically engineered pets at the sight of an atomic test? Are we really supposed to believe she's totally complicit in the Futurians' plans until the moment Ghidorah starts wrecking havoc and then has a change of heart? This doesn't feel like organic character development to me, it feels like it just happens to advance the plot. It doesn't help that Anna Nakagawa gives a less-than-credible performance, and I'm glad she never turned up in another Godzilla film. Most of the other characters are forgettable. The only standout is Shindo, who's a pretty good character that injects some emotional weight into the film with his reverence for Godzilla. As always, Yoshio Tsuchiya gives an excellent performance and I'm sad this was his last Godzilla film.

Now let me take a moment to address the portrayals of the American soldiers: is it really anti-American? I say yes to a degree, but I don't think the film or its makers are anti-American. I think the obnoxiously stereotypical portrayal of American soldiers mirrors the obnoxiously stereotypical way that Japanese/German/Russian soldiers are often portrayed in American and British war films. I'm certainly not offended by it but I do think the whole WWII sequence is the weakest in the film and the atrocious acting on the part of the American soldiers is one of the big reasons. "Take that, you dinoSAWR" might be the worst line in any version of any film in the Godzilla series. The "Major Spielberg" line is pretty cringeworthy, too. This whole sequence stops the movie dead for me and while it couldn't outright be axed due to its significance to the story, I do feel it could have been trimmed down a hell of a lot and the film would be much better for it.

The pacing of this film has got to be among the worst in the whole series. The first act drags on forever, especially the aforementioned Lagos Island sequence. Then we get a rushed second act with Ghidorah showing up and causing a bit of havoc, followed by Godzilla's own return and the battle. The third act of the movie is a lot of action and not much story. Just when Godzilla's starting to feel like a real threat, MKG turns up and drags him off to sea and the credits roll. A lot of Godzilla movies suffer from a breakneck first half and a sluggish second half, but this one is just the opposite and it's arguably worse for it. The plot seems like it takes forever to kick off, and then way too much gets thrown at us at once on the last forty minutes.

Finally, the effects work in this film is more uneven than its two predecessors and, unfortunately, this inconsistency set the standard for the four films that followed. Most of the monster effects are good, the one big exception being Godzilla bashing Ghidorah by his tails, which looks fake as shit and just screams "WIRES!" The bluescreen shots are a mixed bag; the scenes of Godzillasaurus attacking the soldiers suffer the most. And of course there's M-11; whether it's his slow-mo run or his increased-framerate run, any time he's moving fast, it's laughable.

So despite having some good stuff going for it, Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah just doesn't really resonate with me as well as most films in the series. I don't like the characters except Shindo (who's only in a few scenes), the acting (Tsuchiya aside) is some of the series' weakest, I don't like the plot or the way it's presented and the special effects are a mixed bag. I don't think it's a bad film let alone a terrible one, but I would go so far as to call it mediocre. The sad thing is that there's enough good aspects of GVKG that I want to like it, more so than any other Godzilla film I hold a lukewarm opinion of. But I don't like the film and I'm starting to doubt I ever will.

As a final note, I want to address the film's popularity. I've met numerous fans who regard it as one of the series bests, and a number of well-known Godzilla fans on the Internet hold it in high regards as well. Barry of the Temple of Godzilla named it as his personal favorite Godzilla film, and I believe James Rolfe ranked it second or third, just as a couple of examples. I also seem to recall it ranking fourth in a G-Fan poll conducted shortly after GFW came out, the highest of any post-Showa film. Perhaps GVKG's popularity isn't as widespread as that of Biollante or Destoroyah, but in my experience I'm among the few who doesn't at least consider it superior to most of the other Heisei films, and I've met many who rank it among the series' absolute best. That's why I commonly state that it is overrated and, yes, this has probably contributed to my disdain for it.
Last edited by HedorahIsBestGirl on Sun May 31, 2020 8:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The wisest words ever spoken on TK: "When I Saw The Showa Movie's white My Friend's They seid WTF is This Your showing Me to Men Fighting In suit's they found At party city Butt when I Showed Them The Heisei film's they thoght They where pritty fun To Watch"

:Godzilla68: and :Anguirus: were never really friends.

:Hedorah: is best girl, :Baragon: is best boy

User avatar
Terasawa
Xilien Halfling
Posts: 5841
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:06 am

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Post by Terasawa »

HedorahIsBestGirl wrote:First, the plot is just a fucking mess. I'm sorry, but it really is. It's convoluted beyond comprehension. The film is very unclear about the events that transpire as a result of the time travel. I think I get it all now, but I still see people arguing about whether or not the Godzillasaurus on Lagos and the monster that kills Shindo are one and the same.
If some people believe the Godzillasaurus doesn't turn into this film's Godzilla then that's not a fault of the film, but of the viewer. The film makes it very clear that they are the same: Godzilla wouldn't have memories of Shindo if he hadn't been on Lagos Island.
Why do the Futurians go back to 90s Japan and bring guests along when they go back to, supposedly, get rid of Godzilla? Why don't they just go back to 1944, make King Ghidorah, and go along with their plan instead of going with the false pretense of helping Japan? The simple answer is that otherwise the main characters would have no reason to exist and no way to stop them, but from a logical standpoint it makes no sense and that bothers me.
LSD had a great point recently that this movie is playing with common sci-fi tropes. This is one of them. Look no further than Monster Zero for another film in which the aliens could have conceivable carried out their plan without the help of the protagonists. I don't think that excuses the (il)logic of this setup, but it does help explain it: I think Omori drew a lot from MZ in crafting this story. Certainly both movies are about "alien" invaders stringing Japan along with a false promise, and ultimately using Earth's monsters against Japan. And of course both the Xiliens and Futurians use King Ghidorah.

If you want a logical in-universe rationale you could say that Miki's involvement in the past is to confirm that the dinosaur is Godzilla, since she'd had mental contact with him in 1989. While they're all reasonably sure the dinosaur turns into Godzilla, the Futurians computers still return a 98% probability; if the goal is to get rid of Godzilla then they need to be 100% sure. Terasawa was invited presumably out of courtesy, because he wrote the book on which they made their plan. Mazaki likewise is interviewed in the book, and the Futurians could have valued his expertise on dinosaurs. I know the film doesn't really clarify any of this, it's just how I make sense of it. The real reason they go along is so the audience can see what's happening in 1944.
And going back to time travel nonsense for a minute, if Emmy can go back and forth in time as she pleases, how come she doesn't bring in MKG until after Godzilla's trashed Tokyo instead of immediately using it to take down Godzilla after he beats Ghidorah the first time? Some are willing to excuse these plot holes, but they irk me.
The timing of her return is a plot hole because it's not explained in the film but obviously having her show up immediately after Godzilla defeats King Ghidorah in Hokkaido would have robbed us of the film's entire act. Also, I'll argue that we don't know that Emmy can go through time "as she pleases". After all, it's only after Godzilla has destroyed Sapporo that the idea is conceived to revive Ghidorah in the 23rd century. The film says that two versions of one being present at the same time will erase one, so anyway Emmy can't return to a moment in time in which she already exists.
the acting (Tsuchiya aside) is some of the series' weakest...
WWII-era American actors aside, how so? I think it's one thing to dislike the characters, and I don't think a whole hell of a lot of Nakagawa's performance either (pretty typical Japanese-style overacting at times) but I think at worst most of the main characters are just serviceable. Chuck Wilson and Richard Berger are not going to win any awards but they make credible villains and compared to most foreign actors in these movies their Japanese is very good. I don't recall them ever speaking any English, which is very rare for non-Japanese in a Godzilla flick. The worst main performer is Robert Scott Field, but he's playing an android so in a way his artificial performance kinda suits his character.
寺沢. He/him/his, etc.

User avatar
HedorahIsBestGirl
Gotengo Officer
Posts: 1774
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:17 am

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Post by HedorahIsBestGirl »

Terasawa wrote: LSD had a great point recently that this movie is playing with common sci-fi tropes. This is one of them. Look no further than Monster Zero for another film in which the aliens could have conceivable carried out their plan without the help of the protagonists. I don't think that excuses the (il)logic of this setup, but it does help explain it: I think Omori drew a lot from MZ in crafting this story. Certainly both movies are about "alien" invaders stringing Japan along with a false promise, and ultimately using Earth's monsters against Japan. And of course both the Xiliens and Futurians use King Ghidorah.
It's true there are a lot of parallels to Monster Zero, but that movie handled its plot much, much better. The Xiliens wanted control of Earth primarily for its water and had no need to cull humanity. It made sense for them to make a falsely benevolent approach and ask to use Godzilla and Rodan instead of just rolling in and stealing them. They wanted to use the kaiju as an ultimatum, where as the Futurians were determined to destroy the majority of Japan from the very beginning. They had no interest in peaceful submission. Now obviously, yes, the movie wouldn't work if King Ghidorah randomly shows up with no explanation, but I wish the film gave a more compelling reason for why Terasawa, Miki and Mazaki need to go back to 1944.
the acting (Tsuchiya aside) is some of the series' weakest...
Terasawa wrote: WWII-era American actors aside, how so? I think it's one thing to dislike the characters, and I don't think a whole hell of a lot of Nakagawa's performance either (pretty typical Japanese-style overacting at times) but I think at worst most of the main characters are just serviceable. Chuck Wilson and Richard Berger are not going to win any awards but they make credible villains and compared to most foreign actors in these movies their Japanese is very good. I don't recall them ever speaking any English, which is very rare for non-Japanese in a Godzilla flick. The worst main performer is Robert Scott Field, but he's playing an android so in a way his artificial performance kinda suits his character.
The female lead and a sizable amount of the supporting cast is mediocre. The male lead isn't very good, either. There are only a few other Godzilla movies where I feel that more than one or two actors gives a poor performance; aside from this movie, just Megalon, Mothra '92, Space Godzilla and GFW. Only Tsuchiya gives a standout performance. Even other Godzilla movies where I don't like either of the leads usually have several supporting characters I like; Biollante is a prime example, and in that film's case I have an issue with the leads' complete lack of development more than their acting. While the acting in GVKG isn't terrible, overall I think the performances on display are less impressive than in most entries in the series.
The wisest words ever spoken on TK: "When I Saw The Showa Movie's white My Friend's They seid WTF is This Your showing Me to Men Fighting In suit's they found At party city Butt when I Showed Them The Heisei film's they thoght They where pritty fun To Watch"

:Godzilla68: and :Anguirus: were never really friends.

:Hedorah: is best girl, :Baragon: is best boy

Spydrmanjr
Monarch Researcher
Posts: 375
Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2016 8:00 am

Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah (1991)

Post by Spydrmanjr »

HedorahIsBestGirl wrote:... I wish the film gave a more compelling reason for why Terasawa, Miki and Mazaki need to go back to 1944.
Agreed. I think a good reason that could've be used was needing Terasawa's transcript and theory of the Godzillasaurus's location and origin. In the film Emmy tells Terasawa that his book doesn't go anywhere or make him famous. That could mean in their time period there are no existing or complete copies of his book, or a slight change is it was never printed and only a partial transcript was known to them. Now we have a better reason for the Futurians to travel to this time period to find out when Godzilla was created and to create King Ghidorah in the past.

Have we already discussed why King Ghidorah does not show up in the past and Godzilla is still apart of everyone's memories?

Post Reply