Talkback: Godzilla vs. Biollante (1989)

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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Biollante (1989)

Post by SoggyNoodles2016 »

Terasawa wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 6:11 am Godzilla vs Biollante composer Koichi Sugiyama died September 30, age 90.
A wonderful score from a terrible man.

May he have some form of peace and my condolences for his family. His works will live on despite what he may have thought.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Biollante (1989)

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Legion1979 wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:22 pm
JAGzilla wrote: Thu Oct 07, 2021 12:17 pm His score really was one of the best. The Super-X II theme in particular is wonderful, so triumphant and upbeat.
Personally, I'd never go as far as saying it was one of the best. It's fun to listen to on its own, but man, a lot of it doesn't fit the movie, especially because it was all written as 6 minute suites and just cut and pasted into the film. That both battles are scored to the exact same piece of music that ends right around the same time is frustrating to me.
I could listen to it a million times and not grow tired of it. Usually I would notice the repetitiveness, but in this film, it doesn't bother me. All the themes and motifs just work for me. The score is nostalgia inducing for me to an extent I cznnot describe.

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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Biollante (1989)

Post by MaxRebo320 »

Perhaps Sugiyama's death is a hoax just like those hundreds of thousands said to be killed during the Nanjing Massacre.

He also composed the opening theme (Just the intro; Toru Fuyuki composed the remainder of the soundtrack) for Return of Ultraman. One of my favorite themes in the franchise, but doesn't give me any sympathy towards his passing.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Biollante (1989)

Post by shadowgigan »

I'm having a difficult time finding direct quotes from the man. Anyone have any good links? Not denying this is true, but just want to read his actual quotes.

Edit: Nevermind, forgot to check wikipedia footnotes.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Biollante (1989)

Post by LegendZilla »

^I just listened to his “Theme of love” track from GVB to commemorate him.

Regardless of his political views, I consider Sugiyama a top contender for Ifukube himself in terms of musical talent.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Biollante (1989)

Post by Breakdown »

https://youtu.be/tQ2bSlZwK3s

His theme for Biollante is a masterpiece. Part of the reason I love the character.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Biollante (1989)

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Breakdown wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:46 am https://youtu.be/tQ2bSlZwK3s

His theme for Biollante is a masterpiece. Part of the reason I love the character.
See here's what I mean when I say the music doesn't fit. When I listen to that music, the only monster that springs to mind is Mothra. I can't reconcile that music with what Biollante actually looks like. And it hardly qualifies as a theme to me, since it's barely used in the first place. That's part of the reason using the 89 Godzilla theme twice the way they did in both battles was hurtful. There really wasn't a musical "voice" to the character.

Interesting video though.

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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Biollante (1989)

Post by shadowgigan »

Breakdown wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:46 am https://youtu.be/tQ2bSlZwK3s

His theme for Biollante is a masterpiece. Part of the reason I love the character.
Great video.

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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Biollante (1989)

Post by Terasawa »

Legion1979 wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:34 am
Breakdown wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:46 am https://youtu.be/tQ2bSlZwK3s

His theme for Biollante is a masterpiece. Part of the reason I love the character.
See here's what I mean when I say the music doesn't fit. When I listen to that music, the only monster that springs to mind is Mothra. I can't reconcile that music with what Biollante actually looks like. And it hardly qualifies as a theme to me, since it's barely used in the first place. That's part of the reason using the 89 Godzilla theme twice the way they did in both battles was hurtful. There really wasn't a musical "voice" to the character.

Interesting video though.
That's my biggest problem with it, too. It's more enjoyable as a standalone listen. It just doesn't work as a film score.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Biollante (1989)

Post by Rando Yaguchi »

^Man, I don't get that opinion at all. I'll keep it in mind the next time I watch, though.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Biollante (1989)

Post by Terasawa »

Rando Yaguchi wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:52 am ^Man, I don't get that opinion at all. I'll keep it in mind the next time I watch, though.
Only a small portion of the music composed by Sugiyama is used in the film; most of the soundtrack is the same short sections of his suites tracked over and over, usually in different contexts from scene to scene. It's pretty atypical for a Godzilla score because the soundtrack editor largely arranged the pieces to establish the mood of a scene: There's the "monster" theme, the "love" theme, the "exotic" theme, the "action" theme, the "heroic" theme, etc. Unlike Ifukube and most other Godzilla series composers, these pieces aren't assigned to specific characters. I think that's a big reason for this film's different feel.

And I don't think that's a bad approach in a vacuum (it's a pretty common way to score a film, actually), I just don't think it works here because looking at Sugiyama's compositions, it's clear that he wrote those pieces to be used in different contexts than they're used in the film. For example, he has a Godzilla suite, a Biollante suite, a Super X suite, etc. But because of the way this movie was rushed into production (and then even more abruptly rushed into release), I doubt he saw anything close to the final cut of the film to compose his music to. He didn't even conduct the score himself; the conductor that did did a pretty flat job, IMO. Then the soundtrack editor had the extremely difficult task of cutting Sugiyama's suites into the film, which really turned out messy, not only from the repeated use of the same cues but by the way they abruptly start and stop or are pieced together.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Biollante (1989)

Post by Legion1979 »

Ok, the "start and stop" comment gives me the perfect opportunity to mention this scene...

There's a military mobilization sequence right before the fight with the rose Biollante, and it uses a specific "military" cue. Then, because Godzilla's entrance to the fight was removed, the sequence and music just STOP dead and a sloppy wipe brings us right to the battle as it's starting. It deflates EVERYTHING just as it's building up.

Then you have all those Ifukube themes being used in key sequences like the opening credits, Godzilla's entrance, the attack on Osaka, the Thunder Control System attack...the whole implementation of the score is a complete mess.
Last edited by Legion1979 on Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Biollante (1989)

Post by Rando Yaguchi »

Oh, I'm not denying that there are some awkward moments. I just think those are few and far between, and I don't see the lack of identifiable character themes as a negative.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Biollante (1989)

Post by Terasawa »

Rando Yaguchi wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:40 pm I don't see the lack of identifiable character themes as a negative.
I wasn't trying to imply that a film has to use leitmotifs for characters, I was just pointing out that this film is "scored" (actually edited) in a way that's atypical for the Godzilla series.

What doesn't work about this approach in Biollante is the way the same few bars of music are tracked in in varying contexts. For example, the Jaws-soundalike part of Godzilla's theme is used alternately for Godzilla, Biollante, a general battle theme, and I think in other contexts as a suspense cue. That kind of tracking feels as jarring to me as the almost random use of the Creature theme throughout the U.S. version of King Kong vs. Godzilla.

It fails as a film score because the music is sloppily arranged throughout the movie. It's not like Sugiyama composed/Howell recorded a bunch of different variations of the same themes, it's literally that the same <20 minutes of music is repeated many times over a 105-minute movie. It's usually not even a creative use of the same music: It's like "Let's track in the bouncy suspense theme now; let's use that Jaws thing here; let's go back to the heroic march." That's not Sugiyama's fault, however, as he clearly didn't compose music to match *scenes* in the film; it's a failure of the soundtrack editor to not use more of what was recorded.

Is the music enjoyable to listen to? For the most part, yes, even when it doesn't make sense how it's sometimes used in the film. But as a film score, I think it feels very patchwork, very sloppy, and way too repetitive.

And to that last point, I'm sure someone will interject "Well what about Ifukube?" Yes, Akira Ifukube used the same themes over and over for his film scores. Sometimes he even used a piece composed for a certain context in one film in a wildly different context in another. However, the difference here is that Ifukube still arranged and recorded different versions of those pieces, while Biollante literally just uses the same recordings over and over. Consider Terror of Mechagodzilla, where Ifukube uses the same composition for Titanosaurus and Katsura: When we first hear it, it's arranged as a horror cue over the main title; when we last hear it at the end of the film, it's been re-arranged in a heartbreakingly tragic manner to underscore Katsura's death. Contrast that with this film, where the soundtrack editor drops in the same pieces without any musical variation.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Biollante (1989)

Post by Breakdown »

Legion1979 wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 8:34 am
Breakdown wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:46 am https://youtu.be/tQ2bSlZwK3s

His theme for Biollante is a masterpiece. Part of the reason I love the character.
See here's what I mean when I say the music doesn't fit. When I listen to that music, the only monster that springs to mind is Mothra. I can't reconcile that music with what Biollante actually looks like. And it hardly qualifies as a theme to me, since it's barely used in the first place. That's part of the reason using the 89 Godzilla theme twice the way they did in both battles was hurtful. There really wasn't a musical "voice" to the character.

Interesting video though.
I disagree. I made a post a few pages back about why her theme fits, though granted this is my interpretation and may not be what Sugiyama intended:
Also her theme is by far one of the most beautiful pieces of music I've ever heard. It really captures the beauty of Biollante, both as Erica and the rose-form. Later on it takes sort of a darker tone, indicative of the monster she's slowly becoming as Godzilla's cells take over. Finally it goes back to a wonderous, almost melancholy tone (that plays as she's dissolving away into spores after Godzilla collapses) as if to show that despite the hideous appearance of her final form, there's still beauty and a soul within
Last edited by Breakdown on Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Biollante (1989)

Post by Legion1979 »

Terasawa, I love your Terror of MG example. To cite another one...

The Godzilla vs Rodan theme is heard a lot in GTTHM. But Ifukube changes the feel of the theme depending on what's happening in the movie. When Godzilla and Rodan come ashore in Yokohama, their themes are dramatic and slow, very similar to how Mothra vs Godzilla was scored. But later, during the monster summit on Mt Fuji, there's almost this light, goofy feel to the themes, making it clear that the tone of the film has changed completely.

There's nothing like this in Biollante. Just a bunch of 6 minute themes that bounce around aimlessly because there was nothing to actually score them to.

Breakdown, I think your giving Sugiyama too much credit, considering when he wrote these pieces he probably didn't even know what Biollabte even LOOKED like.
Last edited by Legion1979 on Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Biollante (1989)

Post by Terasawa »

Legion1979 wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 1:47 pm The Godzilla vs Rodan theme is heard a lot in GTTHM. But Ifukube changes the feel of the theme depending on what's happening in the movie. When Godzilla and Rodan come ashore in Yokohama, their themes are dramatic and slow, very similar to how Mothra vs Godzilla was scored. But later, during the monster summit on Mt Fuji, there's almost this light, goofy feel to the themes, making it clear that the tone of the film has changed completely.
Another great example in GtTHM is Princess Salno's theme, which we first hear as an exotic interlude, next in a mysterious arrangement (when Shindo sees her photo in the paper), and finally at the film's conclusion in a sorrowful arrangement perfectly complimenting one of the most pathetic (i.e. full of pathos) shots in a Godzilla film (and then of course this segues into a triumphant conclusion for the monsters).
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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Biollante (1989)

Post by Legion1979 »

You sure that last piece is the Salno theme? I've always thought it was the Infant Island theme from Mothra vs Godzilla.

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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Biollante (1989)

Post by shadowgigan »

I always loved how Ifukube would “call back” to certain themes while changing the key. I don’t think I can express this as wel as Terasawa and Legion, but I love how the themes change as the characters change. It’s as if the themes grow along with the character.

On the topic of Biollante, I still find it memorable despite the repetitiveness. The tracks that involve strings never fail to invoke an emotional response from me.

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Re: Talkback: Godzilla vs. Biollante (1989)

Post by Terasawa »

Legion1979 wrote: Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:54 pm You sure that last piece is the Salno theme? I've always thought it was the Infant Island theme from Mothra vs Godzilla.
The ending theme's opening melody is heard as the counterpoint beginning at about ~7 seconds into the first Salno track. But yeah, it was the Infant Island melody in the previous film, and it obviously works in that context here as well.
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