Who Hates Heisei?

For discussion of Toho produced and distributed films or shows released from 1980 up to 1998 (includes Gamera 3)
Post Reply

What is your stance on the post-'91 Heisei Godzilla films?

I consider these films flawless masterpieces.
7
9%
I love these films.
19
25%
I like these films.
30
39%
I am neutral on these films.
10
13%
I dislike these films.
2
3%
I strongly dislike these films.
1
1%
I literally hate these films.
7
9%
I have never seen these films.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 76

User avatar
Voyager
Xilien Halfling
Posts: 6901
Joined: Mon Nov 11, 2019 12:34 pm
Location: On a boat

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by Voyager »

Forgive me Stardust, I’m not well versed in Kawakita’s larger output. I believed we were referring strictly to their work on Godzilla films.
Image
I’m just a Hunka Hunka Burning Love, ahhh!

When things go wrong, don’t go with them.

StardustGenius
GPN Volunteer
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2022 5:24 am

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by StardustGenius »

LegendZilla wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:13 pm ^If Toho wanted to start making Live-action films again, it should be once every 2-3 years. Aside from quality over quantity, it would respect a deceased man’s wishes.

Because of the way film industry works in Japan nowadays, that's probably the route they will go.

StardustGenius
GPN Volunteer
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2022 5:24 am

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by StardustGenius »

Voyager wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 5:25 pm Forgive me Stardust, I’m not well versed in Kawakita’s larger output. I believed we were referring strictly to their work on Godzilla films.
No problem, I was always referring to Kawakita as a sfx director. It's quite diverse and I wish more folks were aware of it.

darthzilla99
G-Force Personnel
Posts: 874
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:34 pm

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by darthzilla99 »

Legion1979 wrote: Wed Sep 14, 2022 3:01 pm I still find it hard to sympathize too much when Tsuburaya was making multiple movies a year and was still pulling off effects that astound decades later. There's no reason Kawakitas Mothra and King Ghidorah came across as bad as they did in terms of movement and wireworks when Tsuburaya nailed both in 1964.
Putting aside my opinions on the details of the miniatures work, Kawakita had to also use more sophisticated work than Tsuburaya. In the 60s Godzilla films you had an average of 1 or 2 city rampage sequences, ranging a handful of minutes for each sequence or the movie would have several 10 second to 1 minute rampages. Usually the final battles in the 60s films took place in mountain forest settings. Compared to the post Biollante films, the Heisei films had on average 3 lengthy kaiju city rampages per film. Godzilla's Sapporo rampage alone is almost as long as all of DAMs city sequences combined. Plus almost all of the heisei final battles take place in the city settings. As most of us know, city miniatures sets are more time consuming and complex than mountain and forest sets. Also because of the massive sets at the 100 meters scale and the time constraints by toho, he didn't have time to film more camera angles to show off the size more like the Heisei gamera trilogy (thank you eabaker for that filmmaking fact).

Something else to keep in mind is Kawakita had to work with more technical suits. During the showa era, the movements of the mouths of the suits and puppets had simple up and down movements. The heisei movies had suits with more advanced machinery to give more complex mouth movements angling into and hinging into the suits. That alone would took up more time to make and use in film. Plus he use lights inside the suits for some of the effects, like some Godzilla plates lighting or the fluorescent light bulbs in the burning suit (he tried luminescent paint at first) Also there was cable controlled robotics for some scenes, which also uses production time since you have to account for cable, set, crew, and logistics management.

Also of note, Tsuburaya was an insane workaholic even by Japan standards. This was a huge factor for his death.
"Your not coming off as cocky. You come off as an idiot" by SBK.

edgaguirus
Xilien Halfling
Posts: 7370
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:25 pm

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by edgaguirus »

Both men did good work considering what they had to deal with.
Walk this way...This way.

Remember this, Dr. Glendon, the werewolf instinctively seeks to kill the thing it loves best.

User avatar
canofhumdingers
G-Grasper
Posts: 1477
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:34 pm

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by canofhumdingers »

So I’ve been watching the Heisei dubs with my kids the last few weeks. They’ve never seen them but at ages 6 and 8 I thought they were old enough for them. It’s really fun seeing these films anew through their eyes. I’ve always quite liked the Heisei series (even if I consider it generally inferior to the Showa films). But watching it with them has given me a new appreciation for it.

We just finished vs Mothra today. I know it’s one of the less popular entries but I’ve always liked it. I kinda like the corny Indiana Jones homages and I love Battra. A common criticism of this run of films is all the beam battles. But honsetly, there’s a lot of really great miniature work and destruction in these. GvsKG had quite a bit of tooth and claw action (Ghidorah flying-kicks Godzilla more than once, bites him, stomps on him, chokes him and Godzilla does things like the tail slam). And both Ghidorah and Mothra have some really great city destruction. The Heisei era is oft derided for less detailed miniatures. I’m watching these for the first time in my new home theater with a really massive screen and I’m seeing a TON of details in the miniatures I never noticed. It’s really awesome (and eye opening). These films were definitely made to be seen up on a big theater screen.

StardustGenius
GPN Volunteer
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2022 5:24 am

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by StardustGenius »

I think the miniature work itself ranges from very good, to just fine, but the big issue the Heisei series had was the lack of good lighting to make them seem like movies. There are some clearly well thought out shots in these movies. Godzilla vs Battra on the sea floor looks really good.

I think the tokusatsu side of the Heisei movies were much better looking than the other half of the movies. That is complete TV movie territory.

I used to say the beam battles were lazy, but I remember reading Kawakita legit liked that kind of stuff, and it shows. The optical printing sfx themselves are superb.

User avatar
canofhumdingers
G-Grasper
Posts: 1477
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:34 pm

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by canofhumdingers »

You’re right about the lighting. That’s easily one of the biggest failures of the Heisei series as a whole after the two 80’s films (which both had excellent, moody lighting). Although I do think the transfers themselves we’ve had available on home video have exacerbated the lighting issue. They often appear to be a bit too bright and washed out. Back in the dvd days there was a known issue of Japanese home video calibration standards being different from US calibration standards. The result was that if watching media made for the Japanese home video market on a U.S. tv and player the video would look really washed out. I think that’s still an issue with standard bluray but may have finally been eliminated with 4K video standards.

Legion1979
Sazer
Posts: 13342
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:45 pm

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by Legion1979 »

I don't think it's just the transfers that hurt these films. These movies suffer from a lack of inventive cinematography.

User avatar
canofhumdingers
G-Grasper
Posts: 1477
Joined: Mon Sep 02, 2013 2:34 pm

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by canofhumdingers »

For sure. I was just saying the transfers aren’t helping them any.

And while there is some truth to the different calibration standards thing, I was just reading an old AVS forum thread that says that’s not really a thing anymore and hasn’t been since at least the dvd era. Except not all transfers were properly made to the newer international standard. So basically, from dvd onward, if the transfer was calibrated properly it should look the same on Japanese or US TVs. However, if the master was incorrectly calibrated using the old standard, it will look washed out. I have no idea how to tell the difference but based on how they look, I would not be surprised if many of the Toho home video transfers we’ve seen over the years were incorrectly calibrated using the old standard.

StardustGenius
GPN Volunteer
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2022 5:24 am

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by StardustGenius »

Weirdly enough, I think the Heisei films look better with that grindhouse/darker vhs look, compared to the generic transfers from Toho.

Sony's BDs are probably the best they've looked this side of the world. I haven't seen what they look like through Japanese BDs.

I think in terms of the actual question of the thread, I think folks who *hate* the Heisei series, probably are probably Showa snobs. I think Showa's the best era in terms of overall creative energies and scripts, but I have a historian's approach on how I judge these movies. I look at the context of whatever is going on in Japan, as well as the other body of work from the studios at the time. Toho did a lot of non kaiju tokusatsu focused movies. Going back to what I said earlier in the thread, disaster films, war films, thrillers etc also should be judged.

I think the Heisei series overall isn't as good, but I can't say I *HATE* these movies either. Maybe Spacegodzilla? But even then, I see stuff there that I think is pretty well thought out, and appeals to a demographic Kawakita was part of (MOGERA is nice and I like Super Robots).

But a part of it is also, Toho was more willing to take risks back then in the Showa era and as a result would give us crazier sfx sequences. I think Yamato Takeru, as flawed as it was, is something I appreciate as its Toho willing to take a risk with a tokusatsu genre film. If only they didn't back out on their Submersion Of Japan remake.

I really wonder what a Koichi Kawakita take on Submersion Of Japan would have looked like. Might be nice!
Last edited by StardustGenius on Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

edgaguirus
Xilien Halfling
Posts: 7370
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 1:25 pm

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by edgaguirus »

StardustGenius wrote: Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:33 am

I used to say the beam battles were lazy, but I remember reading Kawakita legit liked that kind of stuff, and it shows. The optical printing sfx themselves are superb.
Biollante's acid spit is a good example of this.
Walk this way...This way.

Remember this, Dr. Glendon, the werewolf instinctively seeks to kill the thing it loves best.

User avatar
Arbok
Kingdom Mikado
Kingdom Mikado
Posts: 2078
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 7:44 pm
Contact:

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by Arbok »

The two 1980's movies are among my favorites of all time and...
JAGzilla wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:09 am For the sake of accuracy, I'm referring strictly to the post-'91 films: Godzilla vs Mothra, Godzilla vs Mechagodzilla, Godzilla vs Spacegodzilla, and Godzilla vs Destoroyah. These four are the controversial ones, while their three predecessors are more solidly in the 'popular' camp.
...Oh wait, just the 1990's films? I know this list excluded King Ghidorah, but I feel like it has the same feel as the later four entries and a stark depature from The Return of Godzilla and Godzilla vs. Biollante in terms of tone. Anyway, similar to the consensus here, I like them but far from love them. I feel like the continuity aspect mixed with new monsters like Battra and Destoroyah helps save them from being as forgettable as the Millennium series was. Some of the concepts, like Mecha-King Ghidorah or having humanity create Mechagodzilla, were bold for the time even if they got reused to death since (Mecha-King Ghidorah has become almost a trope in comics and video games now).
If it bites... don't mess with it!

Legion1979
Sazer
Posts: 13342
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:45 pm

Re: Who Hates Heisei?

Post by Legion1979 »

Who were the 7 people who said they literally hate these movies?

Post Reply