Who Hates Heisei?

[Chrispy_G]

I think when you are young you kind of roll with whatever you see, then as you mature, you over-correct and suddenly yearn for things that are "adult", "edgy" and "smart" and have a habit of shunning anything seen remotely as "Childish" or "tongue in cheek" or otherwise "nonsense"

But then I think all well-adjusted adults go through that curve as well, and learn to just sit back and enjoy what they are watching for the merits that it does have as opposed to all of the things it isn't.

It's like the Fight Club formula....I think most people, at SOME point in their lives, are at the 'perfect age' where you watch Fight Club(or comparable "smart/Edgy" films like the work of Tarantino etc) and it feels like the greatest movie ever. Yet as you get older you completely grow out of it, and that front of "totally smart and intended for mature minded adults" feels just as superficial, flimsy, and empty as any all-ages blockbuster.

-"This is great"
-"This is dumb give me something mature"
-"Now THIS is real cinema and this is for adults and not that mindless kiddy crap"
-"Wait this is just as empty and formulaic as anything else and just uses a 'maturity' and 'complexity' to hide that it is hollow pretentious bullcrap"

Sadly a lot of people never leave the first step, or get permanently stuck in step 3

[JAGzilla]

^ Or you can go the enlightened route: "This is."

I would also say that staying in step 1 is kind of an advantage; you save yourself a lot of disappointment and aggravation if you're just fine with whatever.

[Chrispy_G]

^ Or you can go the enlightened route: "This is."

I would also say that staying in step 1 is kind of an advantage; you save yourself a lot of disappointment and aggravation if you're just fine with whatever.

Yeah I mean, but you have to put some value in your own opinion of things.

[Major sssspielberg!]

Ken Satsuma was an incredible Godzilla. That's enough for me to like em all, even if Destroyah is my least favorite Godzilla film.

[StreamOfKaijuness]

For me personally, the Heisei Series carries just as much nostalgic weight as the Showa Series because those are the 22 movies that already existed when I became a Godzilla fan as a kid.

I adore The Return of Godzilla. I can see how it’s a clunkier and less elegant film than the original Godzilla but I dig what it brings to the table. It’s the first straightforward ’humanity vs. Godzilla’ film since the original and the last one until Shin Godzilla. It’s one of only two Godzilla movies produced during the 1980s and it does a great job of transplanting the original concept of Godzilla into the contemporary Cold War atmosphere. It features the return of Yosuke Natsuki (Dogora, Ghidorah the Three-Headed Monster) as Professor Hayashida and it has a unique and memorable score by Reijiro Koroku. It’s Teruyoshi Nakano’s final bow as Godzilla’s special effects director and he finally got to work with a big budget after dealing with slashed budgets on the ‘70s flicks.

Godzilla vs. Biollante is just plain awesome, no doubt the best Godzilla film of the Heisei Series. As a kid I found it to be one of the more talky and boring G flicks but I appreciate it so much more now. It's one of the most ambitious Godzilla movies ever produced and it's also one of the only two that were made in the '80s, reflecting a lot of the action movie and creature feature aesthetics of the decade. It actively builds on the events of the previous film by illustrating how Godzilla's return changed Japan in the years since he was sealed in Mt. Mihara. It makes the most of its large, intertwined cast of characters, letting their interactions drive the story forward. It's one of the best showcases of Koichi Kawakita's special effects work and even the score by Koichi Sugiyama has grown on me over time. This film really delivers a lot more than any other entry in the Heisei Series.

Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah is one of my top favorite Godzilla movies and definitely my favorite of the Heisei Series. It’s a lot messier and less polished than Biollante but it retains a lot of that genuine ambition and it stands out from the four subsequent entries with much more dynamic direction. I love everything about this movie: the time-travel shenanigans, the ensemble cast, the origin story for Godzilla with Yoshio Tsuchiya's Shindo at the center, the reimagined take on King Ghidorah, the cybernetic craziness and the convoluted plot filled with double-crossings and switched sides. I've watched this more times throughout my life than any other Heisei entry.

I like Godzilla vs. Mothra. I remember liking it as a kid, then being pretty harsh on it as I grew up and realized how derivative it is of the original Mothra. It does stick out as a major drop in quality and ambition from the prior Heisei entries, and I don’t find the flashy beam battles as enthralling now as I did when I was a kid. Still, it’s such a breezy and fast-paced movie that it’s not boring at all. It’s a lower-tier G flick for me but I like it.

Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla (1993) is one movie that has not held up over time for me. It was the last Heisei entry that Sony/TriStar released on VHS, so it was the last one that I saw as a kid and I immediately considered it my new favorite G flick, even though I already knew the entire plot in detail from reading The Official Godzilla Compendium. In hindsight I think I was just hopping onto this flick’s hype bandwagon, as the Compendium praised it heavily and even referred to it as the very best Godzilla movie of all. While I’ve enjoyed most of the other Heisei Godzilla films more as time has gone on, Mechagodzilla has sunk down to one of my least favorites.

Godzilla vs. Spacegodzilla has been my very least favorite Godzilla movie since the first time I watched it on VHS at age 10. I remember what a weird feeling that was for me as a kid, to be seeing a Godzilla film for the first time but not liking it. Nowadays, I think it’s at least interesting to watch as a time capsule of what Toho was doing with Godzilla in 1994, if nothing else, but it’s still my least favorite G flick, rivaled only by Megaguirus.

I’ll always dig Godzilla vs. Destroyer. It’s never been one of my favorites but it’s always been one that I’ve really liked. Its flaws were pretty much invisible to me as a kid, and even though those flaws are both numerous and glaringly obvious to me now, I don’t enjoy it any less than I ever have. It’s fun as a capper to the Heisei Series and as a bookend to the original film.

[LegendZilla]

^I think one issue that would mire the Heisei films for a lot of people is the fact that none of them were really directed by visionary directors. Instead, Toho stook with yes-man types of people for the job, none of which particularly cared for Godzilla and were just in it for the money.

[Tyrant_Lizard_King]

Honestly I find a sharp decline in quality after King Ghidorah. The later films just feel kinda bland and lifeless. It's really bad when you compare them to how dynamic the much cheaper Gamera Guardian of the Universe was from around the same time period.

[Terasawa]

^I think one issue that would mire the Heisei films for a lot of people is the fact that none of them were really directed by visionary directors. Instead, Toho stook with yes-man types of people for the job, none of which particularly cared for Godzilla and were just in it for the money.

I don't know, because I think that's true for almost every director attached to a Godzilla film. In Japan, at least, the only "visionaries" who've directed Godzilla films are Ryuhei Kitamura and Hideaki Anno. And those two and Shusuke Kaneko were the only Japanese G-film directors who didn't come up through the ranks at Toho.

[Legion1979]

Honestly I find a sharp decline in quality after King Ghidorah. The later films just feel kinda bland and lifeless. It's really bad when you compare them to how dynamic the much cheaper Gamera Guardian of the Universe was from around the same time period.

BAM! My thoughts exactly.

[eabaker]

^I think one issue that would mire the Heisei films for a lot of people is the fact that none of them were really directed by visionary directors. Instead, Toho stook with yes-man types of people for the job, none of which particularly cared for Godzilla and were just in it for the money.

I don't know, because I think that's true for almost every director attached to a Godzilla film. In Japan, at least, the only "visionaries" who've directed Godzilla films are Ryuhei Kitamura and Hideaki Anno. And those two and Shusuke Kaneko were the only Japanese G-film directors who didn't come up through the ranks at Toho.

I haven't read much about him, but my understanding was that Kazuki Omori was originally an outside hire as well. Am I mistaken?

But, yeah, as much as I love Honda and his work, let's not delude ourselves that he was making things like Monster Zero and King Kong Escapes as labors of love; he was a loyal company man who did as he was told (even after they terminated his contract).

[Terasawa]

^I think one issue that would mire the Heisei films for a lot of people is the fact that none of them were really directed by visionary directors. Instead, Toho stook with yes-man types of people for the job, none of which particularly cared for Godzilla and were just in it for the money.

I don't know, because I think that's true for almost every director attached to a Godzilla film. In Japan, at least, the only "visionaries" who've directed Godzilla films are Ryuhei Kitamura and Hideaki Anno. And those two and Shusuke Kaneko were the only Japanese G-film directors who didn't come up through the ranks at Toho.

I haven't read much about him, but my understanding was that Kazuki Omori was originally an outside hire as well. Am I mistaken?

No, you're correct, I just completely overlooked Omori! He got his start directing with an independent film, so not only was he the first Godzilla director to forego Toho's AD program, he was the first who had never been an AD at all. He seems to have had a very unique early career (for his time) but I don't know enough about his pre-Godzilla work to say whether he was a "visionary" (which is a pretty nebulous term anyway).

[GxMGIIFan]

(Apologies for the length.)

My first major exposure to Godzilla was watching Shin Godzilla as a 17 year old a few years back. I loved the film, and went on to watch the rest of the series in the following year for the first time, often with little knowledge of what others felt about any particular film when I watched it. I walked away from that initial experience with these general thoughts: the anime trilogy (which was coming out right around that time) was a waste of a fantastic premise, the Millennium films were interesting but mixed, 2014 was alright, the mid-to-late Showa films weren't very good, the early Showa films were mostly great, and 1954 was fantastic. The Heisei films stood out to me however, with most of them either having interesting commentary on a relevant issue (the Cold War, genetic power, the environment, etc), or a compelling narrative focused around small central casts of characters that were proactive and likable, while also interpreting Godzilla as both a force of nature and a character in his own right, which is to this day my favorite interpretation of the character.

To me the Heisei films were easily the most consistently solid era, and I was rather surprised to discover that within some circles they were rather passionately disliked, particularly the latter four films. In the years since, I've done a fair bit of reading on the subject, and looking into common complaints about the films, I feel a lot of what people dislike about them often comes down to matters of personal preference. For instance, Kawakita's special effects are a big target due to an emphasis on optical VFX and slower, stiffer monsters, which many dislike, but those aren't inherently bad traits. Kawakita made it clear in interviews that these were his preferences, and I happen to share those preferences. If someone dislikes these approaches, that's perfectly valid, but to say the effects are poorly made just because they aren't to one's tastes I don't feel is fair, just as it wouldn't be fair to call Nakano's work in the late Showa era poorly made just because one doesn't like the more anthropomorphic and slapstick style action.

I created this account a few months back, and I've been a lurker that's never contributed to discussions because I never felt I had much to add. This particular topic though is something that caught my eye largely because I feel there's a very simple reason the Heisei films have the reputation they do: the ones who dislike them are very vocal about it. Despite the data from polls like this showing that they aren't widely disliked, the notion that they are widely disliked has become sacrosanct to some, and is (unintentionally) reinforced by a lot of the elites in the community sharing a lower opinion on this era and having major biases towards the Showa films. Writers like Steve Ryfle and Stuart Galbraith are often very critical of the Heisei films, and even those on this site itself like Patrick Galvan (with his biased and often unfair retrospective on Takao Okawara for example) reinforce the viewpoint that the films are poorly made and disliked by a large percentage of the fanbase, when in reality both are untrue. These people are highly intelligent, and a lot of their work on documenting and analyzing the Showa films is very strong. But they rarely afford the same care and attention to the Heisei films due to their personal opinions, and I believe this is a major contributing factor to the prevailing conceptions around the era. Perhaps as time passes and the crowd of those born in the 60s and 70s is replaced by younger fans with more diverse viewpoints, these false notions will begin to unravel.

Now, I personally do believe that the Heisei films have plenty of flaws. Biollante's spy subplot is rather uninteresting, VS King Ghidorah's time travel mechanics are overly convoluted, VS SpaceGodzilla's second half is monotonous, etc. But the films have plenty of positives as well, and in most cases (SpaceGodzilla excepted) the flaws are not enough to overly hinder my enjoyment of the films. The same goes for most Godzilla films, even ones I wasn't initially too fond of when I first watched them, like Ghidorah 64 and Vs Mechagodzilla 74, both of which I felt were poorly paced and uninteresting on initial viewing, but have come around to a bit over time. Overall though, I feel the Heisei era maintains a mostly consistent overall high quality in storytelling, special effects, and pure entertainment. The stylistic choices Kawakita makes, Omori's imagination and writing, Okawara's streamlined directing, and the character-centric narratives are all very compelling to me.

So no, I definitely do NOT hate them.

[Missingno.]

Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla (1993) is one movie that has not held up over time for me. It was the last Heisei entry that Sony/TriStar released on VHS, so it was the last one that I saw as a kid and I immediately considered it my new favorite G flick, even though I already knew the entire plot in detail from reading The Official Godzilla Compendium. In hindsight I think I was just hopping onto this flick’s hype bandwagon, as the Compendium praised it heavily and even referred to it as the very best Godzilla movie of all. While I’ve enjoyed most of the other Heisei Godzilla films more as time has gone on, Mechagodzilla has sunk down to one of my least favorites

While I can resonate with pretty much everything your post says, this one sticks out to me the most because it is exactly how I feel about the film mentioned. While I can't relate to the Compendium/bandwagon hype aspect of GvMG, there was something about the film that I really enjoyed as a kid. As time has gone on, it has now quite literally an endurance to watch; to the point where I couldn't finish the movie the last time I tried watching it. The few scenes of monster action just do not make up for the rest of the horrendous acting and plot execution that the cast is left to fulfill, which squanders the potential the film has. case in point: what was once one of the better films to me has sunk near the bottom of my personal rankings as well.

[eabaker]

Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla (1993) is one movie that has not held up over time for me. It was the last Heisei entry that Sony/TriStar released on VHS, so it was the last one that I saw as a kid and I immediately considered it my new favorite G flick, even though I already knew the entire plot in detail from reading The Official Godzilla Compendium. In hindsight I think I was just hopping onto this flick’s hype bandwagon, as the Compendium praised it heavily and even referred to it as the very best Godzilla movie of all. While I’ve enjoyed most of the other Heisei Godzilla films more as time has gone on, Mechagodzilla has sunk down to one of my least favorites

While I can resonate with pretty much everything your post says, this one sticks out to me the most because it is exactly how I feel about the film mentioned. While I can't relate to the Compendium/bandwagon hype aspect of GvMG, there was something about the film that I really enjoyed as a kid. As time has gone on, it has now quite literally an endurance to watch; to the point where I couldn't finish the movie the last time I tried watching it. The few scenes of monster action just do not make up for the rest of the horrendous acting and plot execution that the cast is left to fulfill, which squanders the potential the film has. case in point: what was once one of the better films to me has sunk near the bottom of my personal rankings as well.

Having been in the fandom when that movie first came out, I can attest that the hype around it was strong. A lot of people at the time praised it as the best entry in the franchise, and it was considered the crowning jewel of the Heisei era. It's been interesting to see its re-appraisal, as these days most don't even seem to consider it the best Heisei film, much less a better film than '54 or Mothra vs. Godzilla.

The praise seemed to focus on two things: the grandeur/spectacle of the effects sequences, and the pathos evoked by Baby.

I think the luster started to wear off the effects sequences for some people when the Gamera trilogy began to hit, and comparisons between Kawakita and Higuchi began to dominate discussion around the Heisei era as a whole. The most specific, direct comparison with regards to GvsMGII had to do with Gyaos and Rodan, and soon discussions of GvsMGII always seemed to go into how supposedly "terrible" the Rodan work was.

I can't point to an outside influence to trigger the other major shift, which is people starting to find the Baby storyline less moving and more cloying.

It is interesting to me that "Heisei haters" are so often fans of the first three Heisei films, while the era's biggest fans - and this is purely anecdotal, so feel free to shoot me down here - usually seem to reserve their highest praise for GvsMGII and Destoroyah (with a small group who will lump GvsSG in there as well).

[Major sssspielberg!]

Tbh I love MGII despite it's flaws. There's a lot of good stuff in there, and I'm definitely not a big Heisei stan. I love Godzilla's role- he's sort of the hero of the story but still an antagonist to human society. Mechagodzilla, for all the shit SMG gets, feels really cruel and imposing, and contrasts the twitchy Showa incarnation by being more still, it almost reminds me a of a good heavy in a cowboy picture. Rodan's FX work and the random psychic stuff are kinda odd, the characters aren't super good, but they're not that bad either. The ending is iconic to me, Rodan giving his life to Godzilla and the red super duper ultra mega beam. Plus, come on, Ifukube scored the hell out of MGII.

[Legion1979]

I was right there with you, eabaker. I was 14 when the movie came out and Godzilla VS Mechagodzilla absolutely was praised as the best film in the entire series. I believe it dominated a G-Fan poll about a year or so after it came out. I think the film having more monster scenes and far more violent fights, the allure of a new super-powered Mechagodzila AND a strong Ifukube score (this is easily his best Heisei work) are what attracted people to it. I also think back then Godzilla fan were a lot easier to please. Everyone drank everything up willingly. I think it took a good 5 years or so to really put things into perspective and for the "new film" stink to finally wear off these movies.

And yes, it's interesting that people who don't like the Heisei films still have good things to say about the first three, while the die-hard Heisei lovers are most fond of the three final movies, featuring laser spitting, supercharged antagonists that are great for fantasy matches and power level discussions.

[Missingno.]

I now convinced you've intruded on my life on multiple occasions because the following things I have to say are the category of fans you described that I fit almost perfectly in with.

Having been in the fandom when that movie first came out, I can attest that the hype around it was strong. A lot of people at the time praised it as the best entry in the franchise, and it was considered the crowning jewel of the Heisei era. It's been interesting to see its re-appraisal, as these days most don't even seem to consider it the best Heisei film, much less a better film than '54 or Mothra vs. Godzilla.

The praise seemed to focus on two things: the grandeur/spectacle of the effects sequences, and the pathos evoked by Baby.

I think the luster started to wear off the effects sequences for some people when the Gamera trilogy began to hit, and comparisons between Kawakita and Higuchi began to dominate discussion around the Heisei era as a whole. The most specific, direct comparison with regards to GvsMGII had to do with Gyaos and Rodan, and soon discussions of GvsMGII always seemed to go into how supposedly "terrible" the Rodan work was.

Funny enough, I more or less had a similar means of following a early 90's Godzilla fan's timeline in a roundabout way. By that, I mean it was genuinely the last film of the entire Godzilla franchise I hadn't seen prior to 2014. I owned just about all of the Showa era on VHS, had most of Heisei on VHS or the Tri-Star DVD's; while renting from Blockbuster filled in for the Millennium Series and a couple of the Showa films. The three films that really eluded me up to that point were GRA, Ebirah, and GvMGII. Of those three, the latter was the last I saw; and I think it had a similar effect on me for my first viewing, as it did for the fandom when it was new. I was blown away by the brilliant monster fights and seeing a baby Godzilla that wasn't Minilla. That being said, the human element didn't particularly stand out to me, nor did it come off as too dull even after several viewings.

Then I found a 11-film set of Gamera movies at Walmart in early 2016. The only standouts I really remember enjoying from the Showa Gamera era are the debut and Barugon, but the Heisei films? They curb check any of the post-1991 Godzilla films by virtually every metric. The acting doesn't seem uninspired and keeps you engaged, while the SFX easily rivals that of the early Heisei Godzilla films. I never personally made the connection that those Gamera films may very well have played a role into diminished my interest in GvMGII specifically, but now that I think about it, that just may very well be the case. However, I still stand by the two aforementioned focal points that seems to capture everyone's initial interest in that movie; and as far as Rodan goes, I actually don't mind most of his on-screen handling/SFX.

It is interesting to me that "Heisei haters" are so often fans of the first three Heisei films, while the era's biggest fans - and this is purely anecdotal, so feel free to shoot me down here - usually seem to reserve their highest praise for GvsMGII and Destoroyah (with a small group who will lump GvsSG in there as well).

I seem to have observed the generally same metrics in regards for the Heisei fans' biggest praise being reserved for Destoroyah at least. I ultimately can't contend your observations because I've never been too deeply involved with the fandom, so I can only speak for myself in the end. On that note as to where I fall in, I actually appreciate both "halves" of the Heisei era. I adore RoG and Biollante and agree with the average consensus that they are among the best of the franchise; while Ghidorah is a turning point where something about it just feels missing that was in its predecessors, but still holds as a good film overall. As mentioned in a earlier post, Godzilla vs. Mothra calls back to the original Mothra quite a bit, and adds Battra which is also a plus. I've always enjoyed Destoroyah because it works as a proper bookend to Godzilla up to that point. The weapon that killed the original Godzilla spawned a monster that is capable of standing on equal footing with the second member of its kind. Sure the human element in those two is not too notable, especially in Mothra, but I just feel that when compared to the other films, GvMGII is the series' lowest point all things considered. That means, *braces* I find more things enjoyable about Godzilla vs. Spacegodzilla. That one does have glaring flaws, namely wasting the first half of its run time with a plot point that is only acknowledged twice after Spacegodzilla's initial fight with Godzilla, but the second half makes up for it in a far more satisfying fight than the final battle of GvMGII. It's a shame having to admit that I've come to feel that way about it now; as I truly admire the Heisei Mechagodzilla design, and always have. I just wish it had a better film backing it, or even given Moguera's role in GvSG to have all three generations of Toho's Mechagodzillas carry over into a sequel.

[Legion1979]

I dont know. I really don't think the final fight of GvsSG is better than Mechagodzilla. In MG, the fight is very methodical. The entire plan is to destroy Godzilla's second brain and kill him, so the fight has huge dramatic stakes. It doesn't feel meandering or overlong (for the most part) because everything is leading up to the G-Crusher crippling Godzilla. Rodan's sacrifice is poetic and the firestorm that results when Godzilla revives is terrific. And the only real human drama during the sequence is essential because it involves Baby. I don't love GvsMG the way I used to but the end battle is still pretty good.

The final fight in SG is just a mess on every level. No real stakes, Space Godzilla does random things just because he can, the human drama of Yuki getting his foot stuck in MOGERA is plain stupid and Godzilla pulls the spiral ray out of his ass for no reason. Just a whole lot of meh.

[CrimsonBloodX]

I don't hate the Heisei series, but I don't like it as much as the Showa or Millennium series.

The Return of Godzilla is the best film in this series, in my opinion, and it's one of my top favorite Godzilla films ever. It takes almost everything you love about the 1954 original and puts it in the 80s. The tone, the destruction, the cold war tensions, the awesome special effects. All of it is amazing.

Godzilla vs. Biollante isn't a masterpiece by any means, but it's still a really good movie and an excellent sequel to G84.

Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah and Godzilla vs. Mothra have their moments, but King Ghidorah has way too many plot holes and Mothra is just a cheesy cringe-fest from beginning to end.

Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II, Godzilla vs. SpaceGodzilla and Godzilla vs. Destoroyah are good movies in my eyes (Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II is my third favorite Heisei film), but not as good as the first two films in this series.

[edgaguirus]

. And the only real human drama during the sequence is essential because it involves Baby. I don't love GvsMG the way I used to but the end battle is still pretty good.

There's also Miki's hesitation when using the G crusher. She's being forced to destroy Godzilla when she doesn't want to, and I can see some of the pressure on her in her expression as she's ordered to use the weapon. It doesn't feel obvious like Baby's moments, but it is there.