Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Post by goji1986 »

Angilasman wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 2:10 pm
Joseph Goodman wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 9:25 amI don't recall them ever actually being on the Janus website.
Return and Bio were theatrical screenings earlier this year. I think Alamo Drafthouse?
Yes. They were booked through Janus, which led to speculation that Criterion was starting to gather the rights for the Heisei films, thus paving the way for a possible box set in the future once Sony’s rights expire (which has already happened for GvsKG and GvsMothra, the rest are up for grabs next year). However it would appear that this was a one-off type deal.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Post by wahoo123 »

goji1986 wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 6:36 am
Joseph Goodman wrote: Sat Oct 01, 2022 5:50 am Word is the Honda films added to the Criterion Channel today (The Mysterians, Varan, Atragon, Matango, Dogora, Frankenstein vs Baragon, and Space Amoeba) have the Janus Films logo before them, which may indicate they have fully acquired the rights to these films.
Doesn’t mean anything. Remember when Janus Films screened G84 and Biollante last year for Godzilla’s birthday? They’re no longer available for booking on their website. Apparently those had the logo too.
I'm sorry but this post is filled with misinformation. It does mean something, and it means that Criterion have the home video rights and Janus have the theatrical rights to the films in the U.S. G84 and Biollante have never appeared on the Janus site, so they have never been available for book thru their website in the first place. It also doesn't matter if it doesn't appear on their website since Janus has the rights to a lot of titles that don't appear on their website.

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Post by goji1986 »

wahoo123 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:25 am
I'm sorry but this post is filled with misinformation. It does mean something, and it means that Criterion have the home video rights and Janus have the theatrical rights to the films in the U.S. G84 and Biollante have never appeared on the Janus site, so they have never been available for book thru their website in the first place. It also doesn't matter if it doesn't appear on their website since Janus has the rights to a lot of titles that don't appear on their website.
I’m not claiming to know everything as a fact, so there is no misinformation here. Just speculation and urging caution. However, what is fact is that G84 & Biollante are not available on the Janus site. Can you name some other titles Janus has theatrical rights for that are not listed? It seems silly to not have an up to date website with available titles for people to book. I’m all for finding out by asking them directly but until we get a solid answer, it doesn’t appear that those films are available since they haven’t been screened anywhere since to my knowledge.

Also, you are incorrect in stating that Criterion has home video rights for these Honda films. What they currently are confirmed to have are streaming rights, which are different. The Criterion Channel hosts plenty of films that are not licensed for physical release through their label. All I said in that regard was that just because these films are now streaming it doesn’t guarantee we’ll see them on disc.
Last edited by goji1986 on Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:37 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Post by Legion1979 »

And if Criterion did have home video rights to G84 and Biollante I know how this is going to end...

Toho only allows them to release their HI-Vision copy of Return of Godzilla. Godzilla 1985 is nowhere in sight.

Fans complain.

Toho only allows them to release their HI-Vision copy of Godzilla vs Biollante, with burned on subtitles for the English speaking characters, even when dubbed.

Fans complain.

It's so weird how eager fans are for Criterion to get the Heisei films out on physical media again, when odds don't favor them being able to do anything with those films we haven't already seen.

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Post by goji1986 »

Legion1979 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:41 am And if Criterion did have home video rights to G84 and Biollante I know how this is going to end...

Toho only allows them to release their HI-Vision copy of Return of Godzilla. Godzilla 1985 is nowhere in sight.

Fans complain.

Toho only allows them to release their HI-Vision copy of Godzilla vs Biollante, with burned on subtitles for the English speaking characters, even when dubbed.

Fans complain.

It's so weird how eager fans are for Criterion to get the Heisei films out on physical media again, when odds don't favor them being able to do anything with those films we haven't already seen.
The only benefit would possibly be newly translated subtitles.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Post by Angilasman »

My expectations in regards to Toho's treatment of their films regarding restorations and how they should be presented is rock bottom. But we can't forget the most important thing about movies; their ability to be seen. The Showa Godzilla films currently available in the US are in many ways lacking in terms of presentation, but everyday online I see people watching films for the first time and falling in love with them because they are widely available. I hear from coworkers that their kids are watching these movies. That's why I get excited about these films becoming widely available again. Me? I have decades of VHS tapes, DVDs, and Blu-rays. I own every movie in some form, but that's not quite the point.
The only benefit would possibly be newly translated subtitles.
Oh, haha! I forgot about that. Yeah, the Criterion editions were a revelation in terms of just how sharper the subtitles were. There were moments in probably every movie where certain things made a whole lot more sense that were unclear or glossed over in previous translations.

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Post by wahoo123 »

goji1986 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:35 am
wahoo123 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:25 am
I'm sorry but this post is filled with misinformation. It does mean something, and it means that Criterion have the home video rights and Janus have the theatrical rights to the films in the U.S. G84 and Biollante have never appeared on the Janus site, so they have never been available for book thru their website in the first place. It also doesn't matter if it doesn't appear on their website since Janus has the rights to a lot of titles that don't appear on their website.
I’m not claiming to know everything as a fact, so there is no misinformation here. Just speculation and urging caution. However, what is fact is that G84 & Biollante are not available on the Janus site. Can you name some other titles Janus has theatrical rights for that are not listed? It seems silly to not have an up to date website with available titles for people to book. I’m all for finding out by asking them directly but until we get a solid answer, it doesn’t appear that those films are available since they haven’t been screened anywhere since to my knowledge.

Also, you are incorrect in stating that Criterion has home video rights for these Honda films. What they currently are confirmed to have are streaming rights, which are different. The Criterion Channel hosts plenty of films that are not licensed for physical release through their label. All I said in that regard was that just because these films are now streaming it doesn’t guarantee we’ll see them on disc.
They have a whole bunch of titles that aren't on the site, such as Masahiro Shinoda's Silence and Demon Pond and Claire Denis' Chocolat. It's seems clear to me that they aren't going to add G84 and Biollante to their site until they are able to get the rights to the rest of the other Heisei era titles.

It would have opened with only the Janus logo or no logo at all if they only had the streaming rights. The films opened with a specifically with a Criterion Collection logo, so I'm absolutely not incorrect in my statement that they have the home video rights. You seem to be forgetting that Criterion is a home video company first, so it would make no sense for them to grab the streaming and theatrical rights while not bothering to get the home video rights.

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

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wahoo123 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 10:35 am I'm absolutely not incorrect in my statement that they have the home video rights.
No, you are speculating just as much as I am. Until there is a confirmation of a box set, that is all we are doing.

Regarding the usage of the Criterion Collection logo at the start of these films, there have been other Toho titles such as 100 Shot 100 Killed (aka Ironfinger with Akira Takarada) that have used the logo and not been put out on even an Eclipse set.
You seem to be forgetting that Criterion is a home video company first, so it would make no sense for them to grab the streaming and theatrical rights while not bothering to get the home video rights.
By that logic, Shout Factory should have been putting out Showa G-films a long time ago, as you could find many Godzilla films on their streaming site well before Criterion put out their box set.

Theatrical, home video, and streaming rights are completely separate and often complicated negotiations. Owning one does not necessarily mean you own them all.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Post by tbeasley »

Starestream on Tumblr broke down what a possible set or sets could be, and I thought it was worth sharing -
Possibilities for a Criterion set:

Ishiro Honda collection (most likely at this point, bolded titles are currently MIA):
-Rodan
-The Mysterians
-Varan the Unbelievable
-The H-Man (would require license from Sony)
-Battle in Outer Space (would require license from Sony)
-The Human Vapor (would require license from MGM)
-Mothra (would require license from Sony)
-Gorath (would require license from MGM)

-Atragon
-Matango
-Dogora
-Frankenstein vs Barugon
-The War of the Gargantuas
-King Kong Escapes (would require license from Universal)
-Latitude Zero (not currently on Blu-ray in Japan)

-Space Amoeba

No way Toho will let them have Half Human.

A ‘Beyond Godzilla’ Showa SFX collection:
-all of the above, plus;
-The Invisible Avenger
-The Three Treasures (no Blu-ray in Japan)
-The Secret of Telegian
-The Last War (no Blu-ray in Japan)
-Daigoro vs Goliath
-Submersion of Japan
-Tokyo Gulf Burns (no Blu-ray in Japan)

No way Toho will let them have Prophecies of Nostradamus

A ‘Beyond Godzilla’ all-era tokusatsu collection
-all of the above, plus
-The War in Space
-Sayonara Jupiter
-Princess from the Moon (not on Blu-ray in Japan but is licensed by Criterion)
-Gunhed
-Yamato Takeru (not on Blu-ray in Japan)
-Rebirth of Mothra trilogy (Sony’s rights will fully expire by 2025)

I’m not going to go crazy adding titles like ESPY, Monkey Sun, or Crazy Adventure right now.

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Post by Legion1979 »

I think the Honda set is likely. Sony seems willing to sublicense their 3 films if the Mill Creek DVDs are any indication, and Universal has already worked with Criterion before with KKvsG. That leaves the two MGM films, and I feel like that's doable, right?

I just really want Gorath in my physical media collection.
Last edited by Legion1979 on Sun Oct 02, 2022 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Post by wahoo123 »

goji1986 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 4:32 pm
wahoo123 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 10:35 am I'm absolutely not incorrect in my statement that they have the home video rights.
No, you are speculating just as much as I am. Until there is a confirmation of a box set, that is all we are doing.

Regarding the usage of the Criterion Collection logo at the start of these films, there have been other Toho titles such as 100 Shot 100 Killed (aka Ironfinger with Akira Takarada) that have used the logo and not been put out on even an Eclipse set.
You seem to be forgetting that Criterion is a home video company first, so it would make no sense for them to grab the streaming and theatrical rights while not bothering to get the home video rights.
By that logic, Shout Factory should have been putting out Showa G-films a long time ago, as you could find many Godzilla films on their streaming site well before Criterion put out their box set.

Theatrical, home video, and streaming rights are completely separate and often complicated negotiations. Owning one does not necessarily mean you own them all.
There is no speculation on my part, it's just common sense that they have the home video rights. It doesn't matter if they haven't released anything on home video since they have the home video rights to hundreds of titles that have never seen a DVD/Blu release (it's a totally different conversation as to whether or not they will do something with those rights). Again, you seem to be wilfully ignoring my point they would not have put the CC or Janus logos on front of the films if they only had the streaming rights (which has happened multiple times). I'm not sure why you're being this stubborn and shifting goalposts on something that is quite well known to people who have been following the company for years now but I am going to back away from this conversation since clearly there is nothing to gain.

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Post by wahoo123 »

tbeasley wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 5:37 pm Starestream on Tumblr broke down what a possible set or sets could be, and I thought it was worth sharing -
Possibilities for a Criterion set:

Ishiro Honda collection (most likely at this point, bolded titles are currently MIA):
-Rodan
-The Mysterians
-Varan the Unbelievable
-The H-Man (would require license from Sony)
-Battle in Outer Space (would require license from Sony)
-The Human Vapor (would require license from MGM)
-Mothra (would require license from Sony)
-Gorath (would require license from MGM)

-Atragon
-Matango
-Dogora
-Frankenstein vs Barugon
-The War of the Gargantuas
-King Kong Escapes (would require license from Universal)
-Latitude Zero (not currently on Blu-ray in Japan)

-Space Amoeba

No way Toho will let them have Half Human.

A ‘Beyond Godzilla’ Showa SFX collection:
-all of the above, plus;
-The Invisible Avenger
-The Three Treasures (no Blu-ray in Japan)
-The Secret of Telegian
-The Last War (no Blu-ray in Japan)
-Daigoro vs Goliath
-Submersion of Japan
-Tokyo Gulf Burns (no Blu-ray in Japan)

No way Toho will let them have Prophecies of Nostradamus

A ‘Beyond Godzilla’ all-era tokusatsu collection
-all of the above, plus
-The War in Space
-Sayonara Jupiter
-Princess from the Moon (not on Blu-ray in Japan but is licensed by Criterion)
-Gunhed
-Yamato Takeru (not on Blu-ray in Japan)
-Rebirth of Mothra trilogy (Sony’s rights will fully expire by 2025)

I’m not going to go crazy adding titles like ESPY, Monkey Sun, or Crazy Adventure right now.
My personal hope would be to let Criterion help them with the restorations for the non-Godzilla films directed by Ishiro Honda. I'm personally tired of them purposefully trying to tank their releases with crusty old HD transfers. I'm curious to know why Toho won't let them get Prophecies of Nostradamus or Half Human?

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Post by Legion1979 »

Prophecies of Nostradamus and Half Human (much like Ultraseven episode 12) are both banned in Japan. They're not going to let an American company release those so they can be reverse imported back into the country.
Last edited by Legion1979 on Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Post by goji1986 »

wahoo123 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 5:52 pm There is no speculation on my part, it's just common sense that they have the home video rights. It doesn't matter if they haven't released anything on home video since they have the home video rights to hundreds of titles that have never seen a DVD/Blu release (it's a totally different conversation as to whether or not they will do something with those rights). Again, you seem to be wilfully ignoring my point they would not have put the CC or Janus logos on front of the films if they only had the streaming rights (which has happened multiple times). I'm not sure why you're being this stubborn and shifting goalposts on something that is quite well known to people who have been following the company for years now but I am going to back away from this conversation since clearly there is nothing to gain.
I fail to see how I’m ignoring your points when I specifically gave an example of a film that Criterion has been streaming, logo and all, but has never put out on disc. Do you have insider knowledge of the licensing deal with these films that we don’t? I know I don’t and I’m certainly not pretending that I do.

Common sense guarantees nothing, ESPECIALLY with a company like Toho. When Criterion first announced their acquisition of Showa films 5 years ago, common sense seemed like each film would get the same treatment as G54 in 2012 - new transfers of both Japanese and English versions and a wealth of bonus materials. This was CRITERION, after all! They have a great relationship with Toho due to the aforementioned release plus all their Kurosawa sets!!

Then we got what we got in 2019. No need to recap that here, but I hope you understand what I’m getting at.

I am not shifting goal posts, I am reiterating time and time again that all we have is speculation. If trying to one up me with insults and accusations is your way of ending a discussion that you are unable to thoughtfully and meaningfully contribute to further, then yes, there is nothing more to be gained here.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

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Legion1979 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:41 am Godzilla vs Biollante, with burned on subtitles for the English speaking characters, even when dubbed.
To be fair, the film kind of needs that. The English conversation on biotechnology at the start of the film is actually impossible to understand otherwise.
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Post by heiseigodzilla425 »

Spuro wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 10:16 pm
Legion1979 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:41 am Godzilla vs Biollante, with burned on subtitles for the English speaking characters, even when dubbed.
To be fair, the film kind of needs that. The English conversation on biotechnology at the start of the film is actually impossible to understand otherwise.
I think Legion was referring to the fact that the film has burned-in Japanese subtitles for the English-speaking sequences. So an non-Japanese speaking viewer will see Japanese subtitles that are basically useless to them, and then the English subtitles either overlap them, or have to be crammed elsewhere on the screen.

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Post by eabaker »

You're right, it was much easier to place subtitles on widescreen movies back when TV screens were manufactured in Standard Aspect Ratio.

Down with 16:9!
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

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heiseigodzilla425 wrote: Mon Oct 03, 2022 7:21 am
Spuro wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 10:16 pm
Legion1979 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 8:41 am Godzilla vs Biollante, with burned on subtitles for the English speaking characters, even when dubbed.
To be fair, the film kind of needs that. The English conversation on biotechnology at the start of the film is actually impossible to understand otherwise.
I think Legion was referring to the fact that the film has burned-in Japanese subtitles for the English-speaking sequences. So an non-Japanese speaking viewer will see Japanese subtitles that are basically useless to them, and then the English subtitles either overlap them, or have to be crammed elsewhere on the screen.
Oh shit, you’re right! I totally misread that, my bad.

That’s what I get for replying so late at night. Sorry, Legion!
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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

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Legion1979 wrote: Sun Oct 02, 2022 6:07 pm Prophecies of Nostradamus and Half Human (much like Ultraseven episode 12) are both banned in Japan. They're not going to let an American company release those so they can be reverse imported back into the country.
They're not banned, their respected studios just refuse to release these films domestically, Toho has released these films internationally before. I do agree that post 2014 Toho would never allow these films to be seen again even if the market is not domestic.

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Re: Criterion streaming Godzilla films + Criterion Showa Box Set

Post by Legion1979 »

They're banned in Japan. That's not up for debate. What do you think "refuse to release domestically" means? You are literally agreeing with me so why are you saying they're not banned.

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