Does anybody find the heisei gamera trilogy to be overrated

[eabaker]

Ayana's whole "surviving guilt and coming to grips with it by the end" is paid off in... Possibly the entire destruction of Japan and perhaps the human race?...

In my experience, guilt and bitterness, especially things that we tiny people can't control or forces that are 'bigger' than us can drive people to do awful, hurtful things. Especially in our teenage years. Besides, I always read Iris as a predatory influence-encouraging her anger and pain to feed itself.

Yeah, it's metaphorical/expressionistic. It's not a movie about the actual consequences of demolishing a city. As you say, people suffering from trauma often lash out and hurt those around them; a story about someone going through that and coming out the other end doesn't always have to keep going to walk you through their making amends to everyone they hurt while they were hurting. At the end, Ayana knows that she was wrong, and she is committed to being and doing better in the future.

GIII is one of only a handful of movies int he genre that even have enough meat on their bones to be discussed and debated at this level. And most of the ones that do - at least from the Heisei era onward - tend to meet with just this kind of virulent criticism from the people they don't click with.

[Terasawa]

I think there are a lot of kaiju fans who just don't engage with these movies on anything but a literal level, whether that was the filmmakers' intent or not. You can see the same thing in the new GvKG thread: some people want these movies to feel like real world events and want everything to make as much sense, logically speaking, as possible.

[Major sssspielberg!]

There's a lot of people since the Monsterverse hit the scene (specifically King of the Monsters) that razz fans who want more depth to these films and their characters like that's a bad thing. Sure the monsters should be cool and the fights should be exhilarating, but G3 is a good example of having those things as well as a compelling human story. G3 is great though because that human story is so intertwined with the kaiju stuff that neither can exist without the other and still be so satisfying to watch.

[Kaltes-Herzeleid]

Gamera 3 is one of the five best Japanese special effects movies ever made.

The art of cinema itself peaked with Gamera 3.

Erm, ok. Not sure why you're quoting me here. I was completely serious.

So am I. I don't do that "everything is an ironic shitpost bro" thing. It's my favorite film of all time aside from Manhunter.

Added in 15 minutes 37 seconds:

It pains me to hear it compared to The Dark Knight because... TDK is nowhere near as great of a film as G3.

Haha, you read my mind there.

Really quality analysis of Iris as an unhealthy coping mechanism. One thing I've noticed that people tend to overlook is that bit in the hospital where the doctor says that parts of Ayana's brain were swollen far larger than normal. Parts of the brain associated with memory and emotion. I wouldn't say Iris was mind controlling her, but he was definitely using their connection to exacerbate and twist her negative memories and emotions to make them suit his needs.

Honestly, I really love how varied the interpretations of Gamera 3 are. I can't really think of a kaiju film aside from Shin Godzilla that has such drastically differing interpretations and reactions to what it means.

Personally what I love most about the film is it's questioning and then stunning reaffirmation of faith. I think Gamera's forgiveness of Ayana and march into the ruins of Kyoto to face down the Gyaos is beautiful and it is without doubt my favorite scene in cinema. It always leaves me with an awe-inspired, uplifted feeling. I don't sing its praises for no reason, G3 and the entire trilogy mean so much to me.

[eabaker]

It pains me to hear it compared to The Dark Knight because... TDK is nowhere near as great of a film as G3.

At the very least, GIII respect's the audience's intelligence enough not to hand-hold them through every point and tediously re-explicate its themes over and over.

[Mac Daddy MM]

In my experience, guilt and bitterness, especially things that we tiny people can't control or forces that are 'bigger' than us can drive people to do awful, hurtful things. Especially in our teenage years. Besides, I always read Iris as a predatory influence-encouraging her anger and pain to feed itself.

Which is fine. But there's no resolution to it at all. Ayana faces to repercussions from ANY of her actions. Even if something was pulling the strings and "triggering" her, it was still Ayana that blatantly ignored the pleas for her to stop as the fight was happening.

It stands to reason Kyoto would go up in flames.

Not like a run of bunker busters just passed by.

I also just want to reiterate that I never said G3 was a bad movie, let alone a non-good movie. Just not the *BEST* kaiju movie (or Gamera movie) ever made.

[Spuro]

Gamera 3 is one of the five best Japanese special effects movies ever made.

What are the other four, and what do you define as "special effects" movies? Are animated films included among that term?

I'm just curious; I love G3 too, but this statement took me by surprise.

[Terasawa]

Gamera 3 is one of the five best Japanese special effects movies ever made.

What are the other four, and what do you define as "special effects" movies? Are animated films included among that term?

I'm just curious; I love G3 too, but this statement took me by surprise.

I'm not counting animated films. I guess you could have special effects in an animated film, but anime is its own distinct style that I keep separate. I think, arguably, "tokusatsu films" are a genre as well, and like anime, a purely Japanese one. Anyway, I typed a lengthier response defining my usage of "Japanese special effects movies," but it was so loose a definition that I'll instead just list the films (chronologically):

Godzilla (54); Mothra (61); Mothra vs. Godzilla; Daimajin; Gamera 3.

Not all of those are set in stone -- I could have instead included King Kong vs. Godzilla or Submersion of Japan or even Zeiram, possibly, among others. And it wasn't my intention to include only kaiju movies, that's just how it worked out.

[eabaker]

Gamera 3 is one of the five best Japanese special effects movies ever made.

What are the other four, and what do you define as "special effects" movies? Are animated films included among that term?

I'm just curious; I love G3 too, but this statement took me by surprise.

I'm not counting animated films. I guess you could have special effects in an animated film, but anime is its own distinct style that I keep separate. I think, arguably, "tokusatsu films" are a genre as well, and like anime, a purely Japanese one. Anyway, I typed a lengthier response defining my usage of "Japanese special effects movies," but it was so loose a definition that I'll instead just list the films (chronologically):

Godzilla (54); Mothra (61); Mothra vs. Godzilla; Daimajin; Gamera 3.

Not all of those are set in stone -- I could have instead included King Kong vs. Godzilla or Submersion of Japan or even Zeiram, possibly, among others. And it wasn't my intention to include only kaiju movies, that's just how it worked out.

Okay, I dig Zeiram, but I'm really curious what case you would make for it being one of the five best tokusatsu films of all time.

[Spuro]

Godzilla (54); Mothra (61); Mothra vs. Godzilla; Daimajin; Gamera 3.

You know, if I weren't counting historical/samurai films among my own list (again, that depends on what one would define as a special effect film), then I think my "best five" would look exactly the same. I haven't seen Submersion of Japan yet, though; and I never even heard of Zeiram until now.

[Terasawa]

Okay, I dig Zeiram, but I'm really curious what case you would make for it being one of the five best tokusatsu films of all time.

Mostly generosity.

Just kidding, I make (almost) no apologies for Zeiram's inclusion.

I can't help but love how ambitious it is, especially where the special effects are concerned. Doesn't it kinda feel like Amemiya's master's thesis in tokusatsu filmmaking? It's like he compiled every technique and every lesson learned by his predecessors into a showcase for the state of tokusatsu, circa 1991. On that level, IMO, it's a masterpiece of the genre, even if some of the FX are clunky, and not every technique fits together as he probably hoped. It wins on variety and mostly solid execution of its special effects.

Is it really a top five tokusatsu film? Probably not, but I think you could shortlist it.

Godzilla (54); Mothra (61); Mothra vs. Godzilla; Daimajin; Gamera 3.

You know, if I weren't counting historical/samurai films among my own list (again, that depends on what one would define as a special effect film)

Right, Throne of Blood has Tsuburaya-directed SFX, but I wouldn't classify that with films like The Mysterians, I Bombed Pearl Harbor, etc. Throne of Blood is a Japanese movie *with* special effects, but it's not built *around* them. Again, not really a precise definition, but hopefully more clarification of my original point.

[eabaker]

Okay, I dig Zeiram, but I'm really curious what case you would make for it being one of the five best tokusatsu films of all time.

Mostly generosity.

Just kidding, I make (almost) no apologies for Zeiram's inclusion.

I can't help but love how ambitious it is, especially where the special effects are concerned. Doesn't it kinda feel like Amemiya's master's thesis in tokusatsu filmmaking? It's like he compiled every technique and every lesson learned by his predecessors into a showcase for the state of tokusatsu, circa 1991. On that level, IMO, it's a masterpiece of the genre, even if some of the FX are clunky, and not every technique fits together as he probably hoped. It wins on variety and mostly solid execution of its special effects.

Is it really a top five tokusatsu film? Probably not, but I think you could shortlist it.

Okay, I can buy it.

In that situation, as to a lesser extend is the case with Daimajin, the question of inclusion in those rankings (for me, anyway) comes down in part to how much we're grading it on its specific value to tokusatsu cinema, as opposed to its value as a piece of cinema which happens to be tokusatsu.

With the other 4 on your list, I'd say that it makes little-to-no difference which angle I'm looking at them from; they (including GIII, just to make this post technically on-topic) are among the best in the genre by almost any criteria I could think to apply.

[tbeasley]

As far as Kyoto, isn't it largely comprised of very old wooden buildings? It stands to reason Kyoto would go up in flames.

Yeah I believe Higuchi has stated that's exactly why they chose the area, he wanted lots of smoke and flame. They had to film those elements outside separately for safety and burned tires to get the smoke dark enough.

[goji89]

They burned tires? Oh my God the ozone layer and pollution just for one scene that is disheartening to hear about. Didn't they realize what they were doing? And yet people applaud it as a great scene?

[Voyager]

Yikes.

[tbeasley]

Hope I'm not talking out my ass but I remember Higuchi saying that on the three part interview spread across the old ADV DVDs.

That's nothing new as far as movies go unfortunately, and imagine what happened on older movies. I remember reading somewhere that Toho crew members back in the day would dump old paint and chemicals in a nearby lake or river by the studio lot.

[goji89]

Oh my God, burning tires and dumping paint and chemicals in a lake? I mean they should apologize for ruining nature just for a few scenes. They just didn't care back then did they? I'm just super happy that that practice is over and done with in this day and age. I don't want the film industry doing these now and I just think it's awful make sure it never happens again. I am so pissed learning about that oh my God so horrible.

[Vakanai]

If anything I think the Godzilla Anime Trilogy, what I know of Pac Rim Uprising, King of the Monsters, and Godzilla vs Kong has made me appreciate the Heisei Gamera trilogy even more. There's been some great kaiju films this past decade (Pac Rim, G2014, K:SI, Shin, Rampage, The Meg) but also enough misses to make you love the good stuff even more.

[Lesko]

If anything I think the Godzilla Anime Trilogy, what I know of Pac Rim Uprising, King of the Monsters, and Godzilla vs Kong has made me appreciate the Heisei Gamera trilogy even more. There's been some great kaiju films this past decade (Pac Rim, G2014, K:SI, Shin, Rampage, The Meg) but also enough misses to make you love the good stuff even more.

Well said. I have a similar experience only instead of coming back to the Gamera movies the new kaiju movies drove me to watch stuff I haven't seen before which at the time included the Gamera movies. Needless to say I am glad I watched them! These gems are overlooked by everyone except dedicated kaiju fans. They need to get the recognition they deserve!

[tbeasley]

As far as Kyoto, isn't it largely comprised of very old wooden buildings? It stands to reason Kyoto would go up in flames.

Yeah I believe Higuchi has stated that's exactly why they chose the area, he wanted lots of smoke and flame. They had to film those elements outside separately for safety and burned tires to get the smoke dark enough.

Hope I'm not talking out my ass but I remember Higuchi saying that on the three part interview spread across the old ADV DVDs.

Here it is - starting around 10:40 -

That's nothing new as far as movies go unfortunately, and imagine what happened on older movies. I remember reading somewhere that Toho crew members back in the day would dump old paint and chemicals in a nearby lake or river by the studio lot.

Trying to find this quote too - I remember it was one of the older special effects guys talking about the early days and how they didn't know any better back then.

Sorry for the tangent but ever since I posted these was like, "I better back these statements up."