Will Toho use suits?

[UltramanGoji]

Hell, they tried doing it with a practical effect and scrapped it for not looking right.

[Tyrant_Lizard_King]

Shin's slow deliberate movements were a conscious decision on Anno's part not a fault of the CGI.

[JAGzilla]

Form Two's flopping around aside, I see nothing in those GIFs that couldn't have been done with practical effects and maybe a little CGI enhancement here and there.

[shadowgigan]

I hope so. CGI is in a strange place right now where it doesn't necessarily increase the realism.

[UltramanGoji]

The point isn't "It couldn't be done", the point is "It would be overly complex and way too expensive time and money-wise".

[shadowgigan]

Yeah, I highly doubt suits will be used. Still, Id like to see more practical effect if possible.

[Chrispy_G]

While CGI seems to have hit a common peak in a lot of ways(you need to seek out very specific examples to find rare movies that feel like they are truly advancing CGI photo-realism).....I was VERY impressed with many shots in Shin Godzilla.

Sure, plenty of it looked not quite up to the highest standard. But there were plenty of walking shots and closeups of Shin that I found to be completely convincing and just as good as any Hollywood CGI creature, if not better. There are some shots so genuinely good, that you could have told me it was some kind of suit or animatronic and I would have believed it.

That was, in theory, Toho's best circa 2016. I can only imagine that their best in 2021-2024 would be markedly better.

But I still think there is a place for practical effects. Given that they initially tried it on Shin before deciding against it...shows there is still a place being considered for it.

Even if not a full 'suit', I think there is a place for practical elements. Imagine doing shots of feet/legs stomping around in a model or composited into a plate. Footage of a tail swaying or whipping around could be accomplished with an articulated prop. You could do a close up of a hand/arm for shots of it making contact with a building or something. You could do a neck/head and film that specifically for key close ups.

You could probably use a full suit for wide shots and composite it in as a preference over doing a full animation. I WISH modern blockbusters today were willing to commit to sort of 'piecemeal' practical effects for creatures and monsters.

I am more hopeful than I am decisively confident, that there is a place for a degree of suitmation/animatronics in Toho's next Godzilla film.

[JAGzilla]

Imagine doing shots of feet/legs stomping around in a model or composited into a plate.

This can work, but as a general rule, if anything (cars, buildings, etc.) is actually being stepped on, CGI might be the better option. Human weight sometimes can't really pulverize the miniatures like you'd expect a multi-thousand-ton kaiju to do. There's a shot in Godzilla 2000, for example, where Godzilla is stomping cars and it just... isn't convincing at all.

Also, is (good) CGI really cheaper than traditional suitmation? I find that hard to believe.

[Chrispy_G]

Imagine doing shots of feet/legs stomping around in a model or composited into a plate.

This can work, but as a general rule, if anything (cars, buildings, etc.) is actually being stepped on, CGI might be the better option. Human weight sometimes can't really pulverize the miniatures like you'd expect a multi-thousand-ton kaiju to do. There's a shot in Godzilla 2000, for example, where Godzilla is stomping cars and it just... isn't convincing at all.

Also, is (good) CGI really cheaper than traditional suitmation? I find that hard to believe.

Interesting points, I was just throwing out ideas.

When you start to talk about cost....it is an interesting conversation. I'm no expert on how CGI gets priced, budgeted, timed, etc.....but every single second of CGI on screen takes render time, and before that design time, etc etc

I've heard that a lot of the cause of 'Really bad modern CGI' is that shots will be paid for, then very late in the process, the filmmakers make huge changes, and then the animators don't get extra time to work on the overhauled shots, creating crunch. It has moved beyond the old days where a CGI FX shot was this sort of precious thing that was meticulously planned out from the very beginning. In Japanese filmmaking, it might be treated as such....with every intended CGI shot planned out from very early in the process and kept more or less the same, conceptually, start to finish.

In modern Hollywood films, entire sequences get overhauled late in the process.

With a practical effect, it costs to build it, but you can film it dozens of different ways, and make the shots as long as possible...and it creates no extra costs. You can just shoot minutes of footage from dozens of angles and use the best material. With CGI, every change either adds time, money, or potentially reduces quality.

[Gigantis]

Also, is (good) CGI really cheaper than traditional suitmation? I find that hard to believe.

Well probably not on it's own, but mix that with all the set pieces plus the added CGI and yeah that must cost a ton.

[Tyrant_Lizard_King]

I think it really depends. Great CGI can be done on limited budgets as Shin Godzilla had largely proven. Hell District 9 only cost around double Shin Godzilla and yet has quite possibly the best CGI effects I've ever seen.

[Destoroyah of Worlds]

So this is my first post in this forum. Yipee! So glad to be here finally.

Regarding whether Toho will be using suits, I would say yes they will, but it will be used sparingly. For fast paced monster fighting action that will involve a lot of city destruction around them, I believe they will use suits with miniature city destruction. For monster battles that are slower paced with exchanges of laser beams, atomic breath, etc. I think they will be using CGI for the monsters and again miniature city destruction.

Being a CG animator, I love CGI but I also have a soft spot for suitmation, so when/if Toho creates more movies I hope they don't eliminate suitmation completely. But only time will tell...

Welcome to the forum! Hope you stick around and post more. It would be really nice to become friends.

[BlankAccount]

I think it really depends. Great CGI can be done on limited budgets as Shin Godzilla had largely proven. Hell District 9 only cost around double Shin Godzilla and yet has quite possibly the best CGI effects I've ever seen.

That's true, but a part of me feels like they made King Ghidorah a wing walker in G:KOTM in part so they could save the money for something else, less for the animators to animate on the screen most of the time and all that and it's like just get prop wings if that's a problem, you only have to pay for it to be made once and can use it for the rest of the film.

Provided it meshed well with the CGI heads, body and tails. If not then I can understand not going that route. I do feel like some of the wired ways the monsters are filmed in the Monsterverse is to save money on having less to animate. I get, the money has to pay for a lot of things, not just the special effects and they are on a limited budget and don't wanna lose investors trust by asking for more.

[Vakanai]

I think it really depends. Great CGI can be done on limited budgets as Shin Godzilla had largely proven. Hell District 9 only cost around double Shin Godzilla and yet has quite possibly the best CGI effects I've ever seen.

That's true, but a part of me feels like they made King Ghidorah a wing walker in G:KOTM in part so they could save the money for something else, less for the animators to animate on the screen most of the time and all that and it's like just get prop wings if that's a problem, you only have to pay for it to be made once and can use it for the rest of the film.

Provided it meshed well with the CGI heads, body and tails. If not then I can understand not going that route. I do feel like some of the wired ways the monsters are filmed in the Monsterverse is to save money on having less to animate. I get, the money has to pay for a lot of things, not just the special effects and they are on a limited budget and don't wanna lose investors trust by asking for more.

I don't think making Ghidorah a wing walker was a cost cutting measure - there's really nothing less to animate because he's walking on all fours instead of two. Can't speak for some of the other decisions, but that one doesn't seem budgetary.

[Gigantis]

I don't think making Ghidorah a wing walker was a cost cutting measure - there's really nothing less to animate because he's walking on all fours instead of two. Can't speak for some of the other decisions, but that one doesn't seem budgetary.

Honestly i feel like having his wings actually move would probably cost more. It's one more thing to animate on an already highly detailed CGI model.

[Vakanai]

I don't think making Ghidorah a wing walker was a cost cutting measure - there's really nothing less to animate because he's walking on all fours instead of two. Can't speak for some of the other decisions, but that one doesn't seem budgetary.

Honestly i feel like having his wings actually move would probably cost more. It's one more thing to animate on an already highly detailed CGI model.

But his wings -did- move, that's how he walked. Actually because they had to move to get him around they probably had to move/be animated more not less.

[Gigantis]

But his wings -did- move, that's how he walked.

Yeah that's what i meant.

[Vakanai]

But his wings -did- move, that's how he walked.

Yeah that's what i meant.

Ah, I think I misunderstood you - and got you confused with Tyrant_Lizard_King.

[Gigantis]

Ah, I think I misunderstood you - and got you confused with Tyrant_Lizard_King.

Well for future references, TLK has nothing for an Avatar, and i do.

[Gailah 1966]

I personally hope that Toho will use suits & CGI together.