Godzilla: SP's Technobabble - Yay or Nay

[Mac Daddy MM]

That's why its okay for 70s Godzilla to be a nuclear powered guardian (virtual superhero) that defends the Earth from threats but its not okay for MV Godzilla to be a nuclear powered guardian (that's not a virtual super hero) that defends the Earth from threats.

No, the problem with KotM has always been that the filmmakers allow their characters to use a nuclear weapon for good. It's not even treated as a necessary evil.

That has never happened in a Toho Godzilla film.

Fall asleep during GvKG where they have to "create" a new Godzilla to fight Ghidorah, did ya?

[gottatalktothefake]

That's why its okay for 70s Godzilla to be a nuclear powered guardian (virtual superhero) that defends the Earth from threats but its not okay for MV Godzilla to be a nuclear powered guardian (that's not a virtual super hero) that defends the Earth from threats.

No, the problem with KotM has always been that the filmmakers allow their characters to use a nuclear weapon for good. It's not even treated as a necessary evil.

That has never happened in a Toho Godzilla film.

Fall asleep during GvKG where they have to "create" a new Godzilla to fight Ghidorah, did ya?

We have people here who think the heroes are actually supposed to be the bad guys lol, that’s how deep the justification rabbit hole goes

[Terasawa]

Yeah, instead we get "Oh no, a couple bombs only hurt Godzilla instead of killing him. Guess it's time to nuke Tokyo." Which is just as bad in the complete opposite direction.

And the nuke is never used, nor do any of the film's protagonists consider that an acceptable solution to the Godzilla crisis. It's consistent with the 1954 film's anti-nuclear stance, which was the crux of MM's argument about supposedly hypocritical fans.

It's also consistent with a similar situation in The Return of Godzilla; nuclear weapons are off the table per the Japanese government's policy, and the actual use of a nuclear arsenal has to be averted at the last minute.

Fall asleep during GvKG where they have to "create" a new Godzilla to fight Ghidorah, did ya?

Narratively and thematically they're not the same situation.

In both films, a nuclear weapon to power Godzilla is considered the last-ditch salvation for mankind, but only in the Toho film are disastrous long-term consequences explored in any way. In KotM, the consequences (moral or practical) aren't really weighed -- as I recall, the only concern is with who has to carry out the self-sacrificing delivery of the warhead to Godzilla. Godzilla goes on to basically wipe Boston off the map after using his nuke-powered attacks, yes, but no one seems too concerned about the ramifications of that.

In GvKG, the nuke is proposed and sponsored by the government and provided by Shindo: In Emmy's native future, the former is the nation that buys out nearly the rest of the world, while the latter is the tycoon whose corporation becomes one of the biggest and most corrupt entities in that same future (not to mention one that's already so powerful that it already has nuclear weapons in its private arsenal). Terasawa and Fujio, two of the film's protagonists, are vocally critical of the plan from the start. The mission proceeds despite the protagonists' objections.

Furthermore, the mission proves to be a catastrophic failure, with only the destruction of Ghidorah and the UFO showing as short-term victories. In this film, like KotM, no one backing the plan stops to consider the long-term consequences of using a nuke, or what will happen if Godzilla wins. What's different here is that GvKG shows the folly of nuclear weaponry by giving Godzilla a power-up that directly leads to his widespread destruction of Japan. Godzilla rampages from practically the northern-most tip of Hokkaido to Tokyo, a distance around 900 miles as the crow flies. Although we only see his stops in Sapporo and Shinjuku, the distance covered makes this one of Godzilla's most prolific single-film rampages, and it's all thanks to the short-sighted and reckless government-sponsored use of nuclear missiles. According to the official program book available at the movie's release, this creates a splinter timeline which results in Godzilla totally laying waste to Japan by 2204. (Emmy saves Japan with Mecha-King Ghidorah, creating a third timeline apparently free from a tyrannical Japan and without Shindo's corporation, righting the wrong of using nuclear weapons in the first place.)

In short, in GvKG, the use of nuclear weapons is not treated as a victory. Shindo is the only character who is openly hopeful that Godzilla will "save" Japan (because he mistakenly considers Godzilla his savior). No one celebrates when King Ghidorah is killed, because they all understand at that moment that a superpowered Godzilla is an immediate threat to Japan -- a threat that then lays waste to as much Japanese territory as King Ghidorah previously had. Even Shindo realizes his error at that point, illustrated by Dobashi's rhetorical question, "Does this look like you the same beast that was once your savior," itself followed by Shindo's grave expression (and ultimately his suicide).

We have people here who think the heroes are actually supposed to be the bad guys lol

What film are you talking about?

[Mac Daddy MM]

Fall asleep during GvKG where they have to "create" a new Godzilla to fight Ghidorah, did ya?

Narratively and thematically they're not the same situation.

In both films, a nuclear weapon to power Godzilla is considered the last-ditch salvation for mankind, but only in the Toho film are disastrous long-term consequences explored in any way. In KotM, the consequences (moral or practical) aren't really weighed -- as I recall, the only concern is with who has to carry out the self-sacrificing delivery of the warhead to Godzilla. Godzilla goes on to basically wipe Boston off the map after using his nuke-powered attacks, yes, but no one seems too concerned about the ramifications of that.

Miss the part where Not-Rick Sanchez was tracking Godzilla's constant radiation increase during the final bout and was warning everyone that Godzilla was reaching "Critcal Mass" and is "About to blow up like an atom bomb!"? And for all we know, that was still exactly what was going to happen up until Mothra's sacrifice.

In GvKG, the nuke is proposed and sponsored by the government and provided by Shindo: In Emmy's native future, the former is the nation that buys out nearly the rest of the world, while the latter is the tycoon whose corporation becomes one of the biggest and most corrupt entities in that same future (not to mention one that's already so powerful that it already has nuclear weapons in its private arsenal). Terasawa and Fujio, two of the film's protagonists, are vocally critical of the plan from the start. The mission proceeds despite the protagonists' objections.

Yeah, but the huge problem with your argument here is the GvKG cast didn't offer any different solution. Not a single idea was thrown out by them to try and sway anyone's minds while the world (or country) was facing a major crisis. This alone makes the KoTM characters leagues ahead of GvKG's.

Furthermore, the mission proves to be a catastrophic failure, with only the destruction of Ghidorah and the UFO showing as short-term victories. In this film, like KotM, no one backing the plan stops to consider the long-term consequences of using a nuke, or what will happen if Godzilla wins. What's different here is that GvKG shows the folly of nuclear weaponry by giving Godzilla a power-up that directly leads to his widespread destruction of Japan. Godzilla rampages from practically the northern-most tip of Hokkaido to Tokyo, a distance around 900 miles as the crow flies. Although we only see his stops in Sapporo and Shinjuku, the distance covered makes this one of Godzilla's most prolific single-film rampages, and it's all thanks to the short-sighted and reckless government-sponsored use of nuclear missiles. According to the official program book available at the movie's release, this creates a splinter timeline which results in Godzilla totally laying waste to Japan by 2204. (Emmy saves Japan with Mecha-King Ghidorah, creating a third timeline apparently free from a tyrannical Japan and without Shindo's corporation, righting the wrong of using nuclear weapons in the first place.)

And all of this matters not because Godzilla NEEDED to have the power up for everything that was to come. Now we're branching off into "What If...?" territory here...

But if they didn't cause Godzilla to grow in size/return, Japan would have been decimated by Ghidorah. By 1993, just one year later, the meteor that awakens Battra would have hit. Naturally, Ghidorah would have been used again to stop Battra and would probably end up fighting (and killing) Mothra as well. Without either of them, there's nobody left to stop the asteroid in 1999. The Earth is destroyed.

So going by this "chain of events" logic you got going on here, the consequences of giving Godzilla the power boost in 1992 and suffering the 900-KM ramapage is worth it by having Mothra survive the 1993 war so she can stop the asteroid in 1999. Lets not even bring up SpaceGodzilla, whom was created by Biollante cells from 1989 (years before Godzilla's 1992 power up). Without that power up in 1992, Godzilla would have been smaller and MUCH weaker (and probably non-existent too...) to even be a credible threat to SpaceGodzilla. So SpaceGodzilla still destroys the planet... Destoroyah too?

Without the power up, by 1995, we'd have a crystal infested world and Destoroyah killing EVERYTHING in its path, a battle between SpaceGodzilla and Destoroyah until an asteroid blows up the planet in 1999.

The 1992 power up Godzilla HAD to happen to save the planet at least three times, once by Mothra and twice by Godzilla himself.

Hooray for nuclear weapons!

[ShinGojira14]

Staying on topic, while some of it was a tad hard for me to follow, I had no issues with the "technobabble" of Godzilla: Singular Point. Some of it even gave way to me having a few fun little theories, but that's a topic for another day.

[Inferno Rodan]

And the nuke is never used, nor do any of the film's protagonists consider that an acceptable solution to the Godzilla crisis. It's consistent with the 1954 film's anti-nuclear stance, which was the crux of MM's argument about supposedly hypocritical fans.

It's also consistent with a similar situation in The Return of Godzilla; nuclear weapons are off the table per the Japanese government's policy, and the actual use of a nuclear arsenal has to be averted at the last minute.

You're missing my point, though admittedly that's partially my fault for not fully elaborating. Yes, Shin is saying nukes are bad. But it's doing so by intentionally jumping to their use in essentially the stupidest way possible... and then it completely removes any teeth the message potentially has by, as you said, ultimately having them go unused. On top of that it goes even further by making Shin's residual radiation conveniently have a hilariously short half life so that it's completely gone in a matter of months and everything's perfectly fine afterward. Hence why I said it's just as bad in the opposite direction. Both films have effectively zero negative consequence for the use of atomic power, and frankly I'd argue that Shin is the worse offender because of the context.

[Terasawa]

Miss the part where Not-Rick Sanchez was tracking Godzilla's constant radiation increase during the final bout and was warning everyone that Godzilla was reaching "Critcal Mass" and is "About to blow up like an atom bomb!"?

I haven't seen the movie since its release, so no, I don't remember that. I'll take your word that it happens as stated. My recollection was that the only possible acknowledgement that maybe the nuke was a bad idea was the exchange:

"Good thing he's on our side."
"For now."

Which I don't think is as strong or convincing a rebuke as dialogue such as:

"Do you think that means you've won? It doesn't matter. We don't need a computer or King Ghidorah to do our work, Godzilla is going to destroy the country of Japan himself! Your nuclear fanatics don't know what they've created. This new Godzilla is unfriendly and he's going to destroy your country. There's nothing you can do about it: Your country has no future now!"

But I'll give you this one. As I said, I'm primarily working from two-years' memory re: KotM. I'll acknowledge there are details I may have missed or forgotten. I have only that memory and my notes and former posts on this forum.

In GvKG, the nuke is proposed and sponsored by the government and provided by Shindo: In Emmy's native future, the former is the nation that buys out nearly the rest of the world, while the latter is the tycoon whose corporation becomes one of the biggest and most corrupt entities in that same future (not to mention one that's already so powerful that it already has nuclear weapons in its private arsenal). Terasawa and Fujio, two of the film's protagonists, are vocally critical of the plan from the start. The mission proceeds despite the protagonists' objections.

Yeah, but the huge problem with your argument here is the GvKG cast didn't offer any different solution. Not a single idea was thrown out by them to try and sway anyone's minds while the world (or country) was facing a major crisis.

That is true, however, I don't think the absence of an alternative is equal to advocating for nuclear weapons. *None* of the core protagonists (Terasawa, Emmy, Miki, Fujio, Prof. Mazaki) support the mission, and as I provided, two are openly critical of it. Arguably the best case you could make is for Mazaki, and only because he candidly answers Dobashi's question about whether it was possible or not to turn the Godzillasaurus into Godzilla.

Furthermore, Terasawa at least attempted to convince Shindo that Godzilla already existed, fully mutated, in the Bering Sea before it was too late: "I'm gonna go and find Shindo. There's gonna be no more Godzillas." Then he and Emmy are interrupted by M11 and the film loses this thread, instead fast-tracking Godzilla's return (and I think that loss is definitely detrimental to the film).

And all of this matters not because Godzilla NEEDED to have the power up for everything that was to come. Now we're branching off into "What If...?" territory here... -snip-

First of all, I don't understand the highlighted sentence, so if you care to/if we're allowed to continue this here, I'd appreciate clarification on that. Frankly, I thought this was my strongest point -- the revival of Godzilla in GvKG feels much less like a moment of hope or victory than it does a grim portent of destruction to come.

Second, probably controversially, I deliberately avoided referencing the 1992-1995 Godzilla movies, not because I thought it would undermine my point (which, admittedly, it does in some ways), but because I was trying to discuss both of these films as self-standing works. That's to say, I was interested more in talking about what these films on their own had to say about the use of nuclear weapons. To that end, I don't think it's fair to involve the following films (or even necessarily the preceding entries).

It's not fair to say Godzilla's status as allegorical nuclear bomb in Godzilla Raids Again (even if it was only lightly-articulated by the filmmakers) is invalidated because of the events of ToMG. GvKG and KotM both exist as parts of greater wholes (the Heisei Series and Monsterverse, respectively) as well as independently. I constructed my argument using the latter context. You poked holes in it using the former context.

Finally, I don't think it was the intent of KotM's filmmakers to accidental advocate *for* nuclear weapons, but I think that's how it came out in the film anyway. I thought that reading (intentionally or otherwise) was compounded by the pseudo-scientific environmentally-friendly radiation implied by the end credits montage. I was most disappointed that the writers named the undersea Monarch base after a real-world nuclear test that became one of the biggest blunders of the atomic age. Again, I don't think any of this was done intentionally (and certainly not in the case of the latter), but altogether these left a bad impression.

While I think GvKG is firmly anti-nuke in its intent, I'll concede that it mishandles its delivery in such a way that it can be misread, ala KotM.

Added in 26 minutes 7 seconds:

And the nuke is never used, nor do any of the film's protagonists consider that an acceptable solution to the Godzilla crisis. It's consistent with the 1954 film's anti-nuclear stance, which was the crux of MM's argument about supposedly hypocritical fans.

It's also consistent with a similar situation in The Return of Godzilla; nuclear weapons are off the table per the Japanese government's policy, and the actual use of a nuclear arsenal has to be averted at the last minute.

You're missing my point, though admittedly that's partially my fault for not fully elaborating. Yes, Shin is saying nukes are bad. But it's doing so by intentionally jumping to their use in essentially the stupidest way possible... and then it completely removes any teeth the message potentially has by, as you said, ultimately having them go unused. On top of that it goes even further by making Shin's residual radiation conveniently have a hilariously short half life so that it's completely gone in a matter of months and everything's perfectly fine afterward. Hence why I said it's just as bad in the opposite direction. Both films have effectively zero negative consequence for the use of atomic power, and frankly I'd argue that Shin is the worse offender because of the context.

Thank you for clarifying.

I agree with this; the half-life copout might have been the most frustrating aspect of Shin considering how closely it evoked the 3/11 tragedy. Oddly enough, it does parallel what happened in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, where roughly 80% of residual radiation was emitted in the first 24 hours (source, but not sure which bomb is being specified here). But I don't think that was necessarily the intent (thus, definitely not free from criticism).

[Mac Daddy MM]

And all of this matters not because Godzilla NEEDED to have the power up for everything that was to come. Now we're branching off into "What If...?" territory here... -snip-

First of all, I don't understand the highlighted sentence, so if you care to/if we're allowed to continue this here, I'd appreciate clarification on that. Frankly, I thought this was my strongest point -- the revival of Godzilla in GvKG feels much less like a moment of hope or victory than it does a grim portent of destruction to come.

Virtually, in order for the world to be saved in 1994 (SpaceGodzilla), 1995 (Destoroyah) and 1999 (the asteroid by Mothra), Godzilla had to get revived/powered up by the use of nuclear weapons in 1992.

Though, just within the context of the film itself, I've always looked at Godzilla's return and corresponding rampage the lesser of two evils compared to what the Futurians wanted to do.

Finally, I don't think it was the intent of KotM's filmmakers to accidental advocate *for* nuclear weapons, but I think that's how it came out in the film anyway. I thought that reading (intentionally or otherwise) was compounded by the pseudo-scientific environmentally-friendly radiation implied by the end credits montage.

EVERYTHING has some sort of positive use if used correctly, even nuclear energy. That's the vibe I get from KoTM's use of the nuke, if anything.

[Major sssspielberg!]

I just want to say it's ok to enjoy KOTM and admit that it's handling of nuclear weapons is contrary to the larger Godzilla canon.

As far as SP 'technobabble' I'd like to reiterate how refreshing it was following Godzilla vs Kong to see a Godzilla story that absolutely reveled in science and technology, two aspects of the series and kaiju stories in general I think are almost as important as nuclear and environmental issues. I had a blast following the characters figuring out all this wild theoretical science stuff.

[Cookson]

I just want to say it's ok to enjoy KOTM and admit that it's handling of nuclear weapons is contrary to the larger Godzilla canon.

As far as SP 'technobabble' I'd like to reiterate how refreshing it was following Godzilla vs Kong to see a Godzilla story that absolutely reveled in science and technology, two aspects of the series and kaiju stories in general I think are almost as important as nuclear and environmental issues. I had a blast following the characters figuring out all this wild theoretical science stuff.

I don’t mind the science behind SP… the issue is it makes no lick of sense even when being explained.

[Desghidorah]

Good idea, iffy execution. What was going on wasn't all that extremely complicated, but it sometimes just needed someone to spell it out as the long-winded talks tended to drag the pacing down. The ideas I like, it's how it was used for pacing and structure I have qualm with.

[JessIAm]

I just want to say it's ok to enjoy KOTM and admit that it's handling of nuclear weapons is contrary to the larger Godzilla canon.

As far as SP 'technobabble' I'd like to reiterate how refreshing it was following Godzilla vs Kong to see a Godzilla story that absolutely reveled in science and technology, two aspects of the series and kaiju stories in general I think are almost as important as nuclear and environmental issues. I had a blast following the characters figuring out all this wild theoretical science stuff.

I don’t mind the science behind SP… the issue is it makes no lick of sense even when being explained.

I think all they needed was something that said:

1) Normal chemistry and physics don't allow Kaiju.
2) The red dust isn't like normal chemistry because it bends time and space to do things normal chemistry can't.
3) The red dust, which is archetype phase 1, allows normally impossible chemistry to occur in our universe.
4) The impossible chemistry of red dust allows Kaiju to exist in our world.
5) The Kaiju are trying to recreate in our world, the chemistry that supports them.
6) It's like a swarm of locusts, but instead of eating all the plants in sight, they are producing and subsisting off the red dust to change the chemistry of our world.
7) The Catastrophe is : Our world ultimately can't support Kaiju, even with the red dust. Just having red dust, or anything based on it, in our universe will ultimately destroy our reality.

There's a reason why Kaiju haven't taken over our world in the Singular Point universe before - their very existence in our world eventually destroys it.

[Jeff-Goldblum2]

Well a lot of people seem to care about small talk, character socialization and character chemistry to decide as to whether or not they like a movie.

But to an autistic person like myself I think interesting concepts like this and talking about it is more interesting to me. Even if it's not accurate as long as it's based on a theory then it's ok.

Plus cute anime dog.

[TheRealSpinoRex]

I wouldn't really call it technobabble. I watched a poorly subbed version and got the general gist